Thread: When in Egypt.....

Have you ever been to a workshop by a respected teacher, one that was a real Egyptian or one that has studied or performed in the Middle East and they were teaching you moves that you consider distasteful, inappropriate, cheesy, or something you don't consider to be a part belly dance movement.

Would you change your mind about the move and use the move yourself, JUST because the current Egyptian or Arabic-born dancers are doing it?

No. I would use what is comfortable for me. I won't compromise my morals for a move I find is not tasteful, just like I will not wear a dance dress that leaves nothing to the imagination, i.e. excessive cutouts on the hip area were you have no choice but to go commando.

Nope...I tried out the big hip circle butt waggle on stage once...looked cool on them...felt tackey on me. A hafla amoung friends is one thing...

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Would you change your mind about the move and use the move yourself, JUST because the current Egyptian or Arabic-born dancers are doing it?

Never.

That said, there are a few things I've been "moved" to do in response to music that wasn't necessarily BD, nor necessarily "good girl," either. .w.:

Deborah

Just because an Egyptian does it doesn't mean it's a good idea for us to do it. We have brains and good taste. We should use both.

I won't name names, but someone I know who understands Arabic overheard a conversation between an Egyptian workshop instructor and an Arabic-speaking friend at a workshop. The friend asked the Egyptian instructor why she had just taught people a move that wasn't Egyptian. She responded rather contemptuously, saying that these Americans are so stupid that she could teach them to <something rude> and they would just go ahead and copy it and start doing it in their own dancing and not know any better.

Aside from that, if we claim to be "artists" and "creative", doesn't that mean we should develop our own styles rather than just numbly mimicking someone else's style? I think we should embrace the moves we think are great and incorporate them into our dancing, and file the rest under "stuff I don't feel a need to do myself".

If Big-Name Dancer X chooses to pick her nose or scratch her butt while she's dancing, that's not going to make me think I should too.

Casbah..I do that a lot too...

I have to really limit what I SEE, because I'll pull something out that isn't bellydance, but it may fit the music. Once I see it... it will sleep in my bellydance-mind and come out later in performance.

Fortunately I haven't done anything too "interesting", but I have done a few things where I was scratching my head wondering "where that came from"...

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Just because an Egyptian does it doesn't mean it's a good idea for us to do it. We have brains and good taste. We should use both.

I won't name names, but someone I know who understands Arabic overheard a conversation between an Egyptian workshop instructor and an Arabic-speaking friend at a workshop. The friend asked the Egyptian instructor why she had just taught people a move that wasn't Egyptian. She responded rather contemptuously, saying that these Americans are so stupid that she could teach them to <something rude> and they would just go ahead and copy it and start doing it in their own dancing and not know any better.

,m:: That's shocking and yet all these dancers came out to study from this teacher and the teacher doesn't respect the participants. These workshop participants probably shelled out a lot of money too

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Aside from that, if we claim to be "artists" and "creative", doesn't that mean we should develop our own styles rather than just numbly mimicking someone else's style? I think we should embrace the moves we think are great and incorporate them into our dancing, and file the rest under "stuff I don't feel a need to do myself".

What you said is something that my teacher/coach from whom I take private lessons from tries to teach me and other students who are serious about this art form. She's trying to help me develop my own style and tweak it. And I'll tell ya IT AIN'T EASY but I don't and wouldn't want to look like a carbon copy of another dancer.

There are some moves that are popular that don't compliment me and I don't want to look like a fool doing it because everyone else does it.

I've been to a couple workshops, where the move being taught was causing so much tension in the room, you could have spread it like butter...

But many of the dancers, were acting like they were all down-with-it, but most everyone looked like they just swallowed a bug...lol

Originally Posted by akashablue

That's shocking and yet all these dancers came out to study from this teacher and the teacher doesn't respect the participants. These workshop participants probably shelled out a lot of money too.

Yes, I'll agree that I was dismayed when my friend told me what she'd overheard. And my friend was dismayed as well.

But then again, there's a valid point in there. It's true that there are a lot of people who just blindly copy stuff they have seen an Egyptian do without thinking about whether it's a good idea to do the same move themselves or not.

For example, I can think of a commercially-sold video (again, trying to not name names) on which a professional American dancer doing raqs al assaya puts her cane between her teeth. (I just want to be clear, we're not talking miscellaneous student performance in a hafla, or someone clowning around just for fun at a hafla.) When one of my friends posted a review in a public place criticizing this dancer for the "cane between the teeth" thing, drama ensued. The seller of the video attacked my friend for criticizing it, saying that the performer had seen a video on which some Egyptian dancer did it, and if an Egyptian could stick a cane between her teeth, then it should be fine if we do it.

Heck, even here on bhuz I've seen the occasional comment along the lines, "If XYZ Dancer could do it, then so can I."

I remember a Dandash workshop in which the choreography called for us to fling our left arms high in the air and use our right hands to grab our left armpits. It was in a choreography to the song Ah Wa Noss. Dandash explained to us what the song was about and therefore why the gesture was appropriate in that particular place with that particular song. However, if a non-Egyptian in the class wasn't paying attention to that explanation, they could end up looking really stupid in the eyes of Egyptians if they started using that particular gesture as a regular pose in their dancing.

There are a lot of dancers who just go ahead and do stuff they've seen Egyptians do, without giving any thought to context, appropriateness to a particular audience, appropriateness to a particular piece of music, etc. I can understand how an Egyptian who has seen a lot of examples of this might lose respect for us.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

If Big-Name Dancer X chooses to pick her nose or scratch her butt while she's dancing, that's not going to make me think I should too.

Aw man, now I gotta change my choreography! ..l;,

yeah...but can you layer that?

If I pick my nose with my middle finger, does that count? ..l;,..l;,

If you do it a la Dina style with your pinky, you will almost be imitating her!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I won't name names, but someone I know who understands Arabic overheard a conversation between an Egyptian workshop instructor and an Arabic-speaking friend at a workshop. The friend asked the Egyptian instructor why she had just taught people a move that wasn't Egyptian. She responded rather contemptuously, saying that these Americans are so stupid that she could teach them to <something rude> and they would just go ahead and copy it and start doing it in their own dancing and not know any better.

That's just wrong! So what was the "arm pit move" all about?

This really doesn´t count:
When in Turkey I learned a bellydance routine choreo to "Eastern Sun"where the taksim included the roma move of having a fist in front of the crotch,beating it with the other fist.

I made a mental note: "Don´t use that on gigs,Emma"...

Originally Posted by *Shira*

There are a lot of dancers who just go ahead and do stuff they've seen Egyptians do, without giving any thought to context, appropriateness to a particular audience, appropriateness to a particular piece of music, etc. I can understand how an Egyptian who has seen a lot of examples of this might lose respect for us.

I totally agree with you on all points. Which makes me glad Michael Jackson isn't a Egyptian belly dancer in any sense because we'd see many dancers grabbing their crotch and humping the floor ..c:: Sorry I had to go there but with those moves we realize that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed (performed). No offense to Michael fans I like him too but none of that for me.

I didn't go to the recent Fif workshops, but when watching the workshop dvds I thinking to myself that only Fifi could get away with gesturing at her boobs and grabbing them in her hands to El Enab. Yes, I know what the words are really talking about but I doubt any of us would be quite so blatant. I figured that Fifi was just being silly with it would probably not go quite so over the top if she were performing it in public. Although, like I said, she can get away with it.

Even though workshop partipants had their backs to the camera I did notice some dancers seemed a little hesitant to copy her movement exactly.

Interestingly, hula has some pretty racy things going on in some songs that good ole American audiences would gringe at if they knew.

Souzan

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I won't name names, but someone I know who understands Arabic overheard a conversation between an Egyptian workshop instructor and an Arabic-speaking friend at a workshop. The friend asked the Egyptian instructor why she had just taught people a move that wasn't Egyptian. She responded rather contemptuously, saying that these Americans are so stupid that she could teach them to <something rude> and they would just go ahead and copy it and start doing it in their own dancing and not know any better.

When I took Tito's shaabi workshop last year, there was one move where honestly, that thought crossed my mind. We had to raise our arms to the ceiling, point our fingers, then wave our arms back and forth while jumping in a circle. You can see the move at about 1:53 here [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khgm3QSfj1Q]YouTube - Tito @ the Las Vegas IBDC 2007-4[/ame]

It's a fun move, but whenever I show it to anyone, they just get this WTF? look on their face. Unless of course, they've taken the workshop!

Ok, the move over the head with the fingers pointing was the uncomfortable move? How about trying to copy the stance and jumps into the next moves in bedlahs? THAT wasnt uncomfortable?
Seriously, a lot of moves he was doing in the galabaya didnt go too well in the ladies costumes.

This might have to go to a different thread about gestures but isn't the thumb gesture mean something - bad. I believe I read that somewhere about M.E. obscene gestures.

No offense to the ladies dancing in the video w/ Tito but he's a talent on his own. Meaning I'd rather have him perform alone or with Aida. They are cute together when they perform.

Originally Posted by akashablue

No offense to the ladies dancing in the video w/ Tito but he's a talent on his own. Meaning I'd rather have him perform alone or with Aida. They are cute together when they perform.

From what I heard at the IBDC, he actually selected those dancers out of the workshop to perform with him that same night. So not only had they never danced with Tito before, they'd never danced the CHOREOGRAPHY before! Taking that into consideration, they really held their own.

Originally Posted by patrisha

Ok, the move over the head with the fingers pointing was the uncomfortable move?

Not really uncomfortable, just very odd to me - like, "Why are we doing this?". I felt like I was flagging an airplane down for a landing. ..l;,

Originally Posted by laura 2

Not really uncomfortable, just very odd to me - like, "Why are we doing this?". I felt like I was flagging an airplane down for a landing. ..l;,

That looks a lot like what Saad does in a lot of his music videos. Love those shaabi videos. Some of them are really funny.

Souzan

When I watched that Tito move just now, not having gone to the workshop, what came to mind first was this is a good example of considering what style you are doing and costume you will be wearing - do they compliment each other?

When I do my more shaabi or beledi style moves I usually wear a looser dress, not bedlah. Since the movements can be larger and cheekier, it just looks better, than in a bra/belt.

I didn't see anything wrong with the move, but I think to carry it off requires a lot of attitude. You can see it in Tito's face the attitude behind it and a dancer or two behind him, aren't really projecting any intention, they are just having fun...It makes a big difference.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I won't name names, but someone I know who understands Arabic overheard a conversation between an Egyptian workshop instructor and an Arabic-speaking friend at a workshop. The friend asked the Egyptian instructor why she had just taught people a move that wasn't Egyptian. She responded rather contemptuously, saying that these Americans are so stupid that she could teach them to <something rude> and they would just go ahead and copy it and start doing it in their own dancing and not know any better.

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

I've been to a couple workshops, where the move being taught was causing so much tension in the room, you could have spread it like butter...

But many of the dancers, were acting like they were all down-with-it, but most everyone looked like they just swallowed a bug...lol

Do you remember what these were? I am just curious about the types of moves people find uncomfortable.

This is one of the things I work hardest in teaching my students. My friend Henna has a great quote on her website that says something like "it takes a long time to play like yourself"

I think you should try to learn ALL the moves you can but then you have to go through that list and decide what's right for you first. Then you go through the list again and decided what's right for this performance and this music with this costume.

We had to raise our arms to the ceiling, point our fingers, then wave our arms back and forth while jumping in a circle.

That doesn't look in the least odd to me, probably because I've done a lot of folk.

In my experience a lot of those types of choreos relate very specifically to the lyrics and the gestures and postures are going to make way more sense if you understand the song.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

In my experience a lot of those types of choreos relate very specifically to the lyrics and the gestures and postures are going to make way more sense if you understand the song.

I'm sure you're right. He did explain the lyric/gesture connection for a couple of moves in that choreo (like a finger drawn across and under the nose for a line about illicit drugs), but not that specific one.

Originally Posted by patrisha

Ok, the move over the head with the fingers pointing was the uncomfortable move? How about trying to copy the stance and jumps into the next moves in bedlahs? THAT wasnt uncomfortable?
Seriously, a lot of moves he was doing in the galabaya didnt go too well in the ladies costumes.

I agree - and I wondered why the women were performing in bedleh? Shaabi is at least beledi dress if not galibayya. Why would people dance shaabi in bedleh?

However, as far as the dance goes - it obviously isn't raqs sharqi - but it wasn't labelled as such anyway and it's fine as shaabi.