Thread: improv is underrated, labels are overrated

lately, i've been doing alot of choreo to prove a point...........in the past i was labeled as 'just tribal', 'prop girl' (meaning using alot of props to hide poor dancing), 'can't do oriental', etc.........as a wise lady once told me.........'there seem to be an awful lot of labels'........

i personally don't ascribe to them, but many in the dance community at large DO, as we've seen on many threads on this board.......i think it's more important to find your own voice, and i lost sight of that for a bit

last night i did something i hadn't done in a long time.....pure, 100% improv to music i knew intimately and LOVED!

it was for 'shimmies for the cure' in glen arm, and cuz it was a good cause and an eclectic mix in the audience, i took some of my favorite music (involving bagpipes :D) and just winged it...........i took alot of what i've improved on, and my old training as well and had a blast! one person told me it's the best they've seen me do (i doubt that, but i'll take the compliment) and raves from colleagues i respect..........they said they could tell i was happy, and the audience responded...........while i can point out everything that went wrong (we all can, right?) it was still good to hear

some believe that choreo is the way to show you're a 'true dancer', others say if you can't improv, you can't dance.....alot of labels.........there's a place for both, but improv i think is the 'breath of fresh air', a place for innovation, to show you're not a clone, where you are 100% YOU.....

choreos show your talent and virtuosity, improv shows the audience who you ARE.......the debate will go on forever, but that's my 2 cents...LOL, maybe this should have been a blog.....but i'd like you all to share YOUR experiences and opinions........

I had a revelation myself the other night, watching some incredible fusion by a troupe called Verbatim. They blew my socks off and made me re-evaluate my feelings about belly dance and what it means.

I think labels can be damaging when a dancer tries so hard to conform to the definitions that the labels represent that she loses her own voice.

I personally think both choreography and improvisation have value. Any one individual will have her own comfort zone, and may prefer one or the other. Nothing wrong with that. But I think it's good for a dancer's versatility to learn how to do both.

Becoming learned in any style, technique, or method of dancing is all well and good. It provides a language for expression. But don't lose the forest for the trees: IMO, at the end of the day it is all still dancing, something people have done through the ages for the sheer bliss of it, to sing the song of the soul.

PS I feel more free in the safety of choreo, where I don't have to think and can just fill out the music.

Originally Posted by ruta21030

there's a place for both, but improv i think is the 'breath of fresh air', a place for innovation, to show you're not a clone, where you are 100% YOU.....

Yes, yes, yes! :)

Originally Posted by ruta21030

choreos show your talent and virtuosity, improv shows the audience who you ARE.......

Well said, well done, Ruta! You go, girl ......... I agree. I'll just add my 2 cents that too many "tricks" within choreography IMHO take away from my enjoyment of the performance. Choreography shouldn't FEEL like choreography. I believe no matter how well choreographed and rehearsed, your performance should have the feel of something alive, fresh, new, as if it were being danced for the first time .... (the piece, that is ..... didn't mean to imply it should appear that the dancer is dancing for the first time in her life..l;, altho nothing wrong with that, if it's time and the venue is right ..... and if she is ready, tecnique-wise and emotionally.... I agree that improv is what shows the audience who you are as a unique dancer ......

As an aside, I wonder if anyone else experiences this: Coming up with choreography for the girls is not a problem ....... choreographing something for myself is astoundingly difficult....... I procrastinate and have huge blocks ..... this is beyond a preference for live music and improv which I love above all else ...... any thoughts on why it would be more difficult to choreograph for oneself than for students?

PS -- this is the first time I've heard the phrase "prop girl" .... sounds harsh!

ABSO-FRICKEN-LUTELY!

don't get me wrong, i'm not anti choreo AT ALL.....there are choreos i LOVE to dance to, and really enjoy..........i'm currently working on getting out of the head-zone so i can express more, and working with a couple of wonderful teachers to do it, to free myself up......
i just find that there are alot of people that can't or won't improv....

and like you, i just can't seem to choreograph for myself.......i'll be watching responses on that too, i just can't seem to do it........

I think the most important thing, whether doing improv or choreo, is to have something of your own to say to the audience.

Get out of my head, Ru! I just wrote a blog on a very, very similar topic. In my case, I'm dying to break free from the "prop girl" label (more specifically the "fire dancer" thing) and be welcomed warmly across the board by audiences even if I'm not balancing something sharp or flammable on my head. My particular skill set has its merits with the G.P., but if one more client requests a fire dance, I think I will scream.

I think revelations of this nature pop up as we grow and mature, both as dancers and as people. Once we find our voice and feel comfortable expressing it to our audience, choreographies, props and other things we might have used as "crutches" become less significant.

Labels are not only overrated, but damaging. The sky's the limit for personal evolution and artistic expression. Why typecast yourself or others when there's so much freedom to grow and excel? The day we stop learning is the day we may as well hang up the bedlah for good....make each new step count!

Kudos for the positive revelations and a great new topic of discussion, Ruta!

Well said Ruta!

When I see a wonderful choreo I´m impressed,
but *what I perceive as*
an improvising dancer makes me really happy...

I like to try making choreos for myself that are "uneven",and by that I mean that it DON´T goes on like:
2 hip circles to the right,2 to the left and so on...
Still want them to look spontaneous,
but when there´s lots of floor/stage to cover-
I need my teachers or my own choreo as a crutch!:)

Originally Posted by bintbeled

I think the most important thing, whether doing improv or choreo, is to have something of your own to say to the audience.

i love you, latifa, seriously

which is WHY i'm trying to express more in choreo..........that IS a block in my own head.............and i know it, and it shows............

Originally Posted by naiyahayal

As an aside, I wonder if anyone else experiences this: Coming up with choreography for the girls is not a problem ....... choreographing something for myself is astoundingly difficult....... I procrastinate and have huge blocks ..... this is beyond a preference for live music and improv which I love above all else ...... any thoughts on why it would be more difficult to choreograph for oneself than for students?

Are you my long lost twin?

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and I think it's so hard because as we listen to the music repeatedly, we hear different movements depending on our mood... sometimes we feel just a simple hip circle would be perfect for a particular section and other times it's a shimmy. When you choreograph for a group, everyone has to do the same thing no matter what they feel, but when it's just you, you only want to express what you feel when you're feeling it.

Of course, that's not always a good idea because no one is "on" every show, and I have been reminded of that very recently, so off to try and choreograph I go...

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I personally think both choreography and improvisation have value. Any one individual will have her own comfort zone, and may prefer one or the other. Nothing wrong with that. But I think it's good for a dancer's versatility to learn how to do both.

i agree.

this has been interesting for me to read because i've had the opposite experience... enjoying choreo amongst those who value improv more. labeling goes all around...

Originally Posted by naiyahayal

Well said, well done, Ruta! You go, girl ......... I agree. I'll just add my 2 cents that too many "tricks" within choreography IMHO take away from my enjoyment of the performance. Choreography shouldn't FEEL like choreography. I believe no matter how well choreographed and rehearsed, your performance should have the feel of something alive, fresh, new, as if it were being danced for the first time .... (the piece, that is ..... didn't mean to imply it should appear that the dancer is dancing for the first time in her life..l;, altho nothing wrong with that, if it's time and the venue is right ..... and if she is ready, tecnique-wise and emotionally.... I agree that improv is what shows the audience who you are as a unique dancer ......

As an aside, I wonder if anyone else experiences this: Coming up with choreography for the girls is not a problem ....... choreographing something for myself is astoundingly difficult....... I procrastinate and have huge blocks ..... this is beyond a preference for live music and improv which I love above all else ...... any thoughts on why it would be more difficult to choreograph for oneself than for students?

PS -- this is the first time I've heard the phrase "prop girl" .... sounds harsh!

I'm the same. I will do choreo for my students and for group dancing. I will do loose choreos now for stage shows but after over 20 years being an improv dancer I can't give it up completely. That's my love: improv to a live band.

[QUOTE=miriamgamal;224288]Are you my long lost twin?


..l;, maybe! I have finally been admitting to myself that there is a huge difference between coming up with choreography for myself or for others, and was really feeling alone in that area ..... it really feels like a deficiency ...... so glad to know I'm not the only one!

That really makes sense to me, Miriam -- when we choreograph for a troupe, I guess we tend to pick out movements that are more obvious, that everyone can "hear" in the music. Like "well, you can't go wrong with a step-hip there, or a turn here ..... hmm, very obvious to put a shimmy walk in this spot ....."
when we choreograph for ourselves, we have way too many more "choices," which change with our mood, as you said. That makes sense! Those of us who are more used to dancing with a live band know better than to expect that the band will play even a well-known song the same way twice, the arrangement can be quite different from the way we are used to hearing it, so we leave our minds open to different interpretations. Hmm.......interesting subject to explore!

Structured improv - leave spaces in the choreo for improv but have other places, like the entrance and/or certain sections, choreographed. Best of both worlds!

Yeah, the labels thing--some dancers benefit from using a certain "label" as a marketing tool. But really, the best and most entertaining dancers have their own personality all over their style, making it their own, whatever their style. Every dancer being unique is one of the things I love about our dance.

Choreography for one's own solo performance may be challenging due to what was mentioned above (having so many choices and moods to express) in addition to the pressure we put on ourselves to "come up with something amazing." This blocks the process of creating something organically and to our satisfaction as soloists.

In creating repertoire for others we may not feel this pressure and might even feel more comfortable working around the constraints that are presented when faced with many dancers of slightly varying skills, space restrictions, and the like.

Drop by this weekend, Ruta!! I'll talk your ear off about choreo and improv! ;0)

Originally Posted by Azhia

Choreography for one's own solo performance may be challenging due to what was mentioned above (having so many choices and moods to express) in addition to the pressure we put on ourselves to "come up with something amazing." This blocks the process of creating something organically and to our satisfaction as soloists.

In creating repertoire for others we may not feel this pressure and might even feel more comfortable working around the constraints that are presented when faced with many dancers of slightly varying skills, space restrictions, and the like.

Drop by this weekend, Ruta!! I'll talk your ear off about choreo and improv! ;0)

already planning to ..g.:

when do you arrive? and when are u planning to hit shahrzad?

mwahahahaha

Yay! Cass and I hit MD Friday late morning, first client is at noon.
OMG, I can't possibly even tempt myself to look at Shahrzad's stock (OR Latifa's rh-rh-rhinestones). Hoping she doesn't have anything that fits me. I'm trying to save up for new ink(s) and just picked up a new air compressor. My credit card is bending under all the strain...
NO ENABLERS ALLOWED. yiiiiih, right...

But back to your topic, I'm happy to hear that you're experiencing positivity in both aspects of choreo and improv. They're both important and both challenge you in valuable ways.

Originally Posted by Azhia

Yay! Cass and I hit MD Friday late morning, first client is at noon.
OMG, I can't possibly even tempt myself to look at Shahrzad's stock (OR Latifa's rh-rh-rhinestones). Hoping she doesn't have anything that fits me. I'm trying to save up for new ink(s) and just picked up a new air compressor. My credit card is bending under all the strain...

um, actually, there tends to be some teenies in every new shipment, i may have to ask her to check....and as for latifa's bling?.....mmmmmmmm, nuf said.........g.:

Originally Posted by Azhia

NO ENABLERS ALLOWED. yiiiiih, right...

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;, *gasp* ..l;,..l;,..l;,*snort*, yeah, that's funny, think about WHO IS SPONSORING IT! the enabler royale, HA! you have thrown down the gauntlet, resistance is futile.........g.:

Originally Posted by Azhia

But back to your topic, I'm happy to hear that you're experiencing positivity in both aspects of choreo and improv. They're both important and both challenge you in valuable ways.

yeah, with great support and excellent teachers, definitely.........it's also good to hear other's experiences and opinions cuz everyone's experiences are so varied.......that's why i love bhuz

Wait, me?? An enabler????

Originally Posted by bintbeled

Wait, me?? An enabler????

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,*gasp*..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,*whe eze*..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,*banging on the floor holding my sides*

what, you? no never ..c::

Originally Posted by khalima

PS I feel more free in the safety of choreo, where I don't have to think and can just fill out the music.

You are not alone. If I don't have to think about the steps, I can emote better. On the other hand, I know that really good improv dosen't involve too much thinking. I try and try to improv and I find myself getting stuck in my head and my feet stop or things just start looking a little wonkie. I do keep trying tho!

This is one of my favorite threads so far. I am a baby belly dancer and I challenged myself to do cheorography. I was able to complete it without too much difficulty because I could feel the song. I have since completed 2nd choreography but I did not choreograph the taqsim which forced me to improv each time it was performed. I liked the way that felt. Now that I know that I can complete a choreography, I want to focus more on my improv skills. I know that I have more to learn but really enjoy challenging myself.

I love improv, it is absolutely liberating. When I get really, really into a specific song, improv dancing is the closest thing to proper meditation I can actually achieve. Bliss!






Fortunatly my tendency to drool when either concentrating really hard or completely zoning has never happened while dancing... .w.:

Originally Posted by Linnyg

You are not alone. If I don't have to think about the steps, I can emote better. On the other hand, I know that really good improv dosen't involve too much thinking. I try and try to improv and I find myself getting stuck in my head and my feet stop or things just start looking a little wonkie. I do keep trying tho!

Linny! That's what I meant in a thread I posted whining that I feel I'd never learn improv. I get stuck in my head to and find myself reduced to swaying slightly while overanalyzing. (Guess there is a LOT of empty space in my head to get lost in haha)

I was just sort of feeling that I was limiting myself only learning choreographed pieces and maybe using them as a security blanket, but then after some great feedback I realized, I AM ONLY JUST BEGINNING, and now I can relax a bit.

I can't believe Ruta that someone called you "prop girl" or whatever that term was you mentioned. I hope it wasn't a dancer. I think those that use "props" should be given props (bad pun, couldn't resist) because I can't even shimmy and chew gum at the same time...l;,..l;,