Thread: Roman vs Karsilama

I just recieved an intresting e mail, It stated that the Karsilama was NOT Roman, I had thought is was but was slightly different, my thinking was that there is a Roman Karsilama and a Oriental karsilama. Obviously the same or slightly different song, just accenting on the 7,8 for roman and adding the gestures

The oriental is accents on the 1357,
the roman is 13578

So now im confused, yes they are both 9/8 according to the e mail, well here is the e mail, It was actually an advertisment for a work shop that I most likely will never be able to attend, but It left me very confused, can any one help?

There seems to be such a confusion on this subject of Gypsy dance and Kashlama (Folk Dance) style.
ok so if roman is different than "karsilama folk" what is "karsilama folk", obviously not oriental that cant be folk, and i wonder why they spelled it kashlama not karsilama

From what I gather lots of our dancers have been misinformed and have been doing Kashlama as Roman the two dances are so different from one another but both share the measure of 9/8 in music.

..c::..c::..c::..c::..c::..c::..c::

If you use Karsilama to refer to a *dance*, chances are you're talking about a Turkish line dance.

ahhh, i see so maybe when we refer to karsilama we are talking about a song, this refers to a dance, WHICH would be VERY different

The use of karsilama to refer to the 9/8 *rhythm* (which is a different thing from a song - in my experience, it is important to be very exact when using these terms, esp. when talking to musicians) from all I gather is also a bit of an iffy thing, at least when one talks to people who are not bellydancers or musicians who play mostly for bellydancers, because that usage is well understood and has a well-defined meaning in the US bellydance/musician community, but not necessarily elsewhere, esp. in Turkey: Romany drummers in Istanbul use "9/8" and then play whatever they feel like. Well, at least that's what a friend of mine says. He lived in Istanbul for a year or so to study drumming, so I am taking his word for it.

hmm I've also heard that the 9/8 rhythm can be played more Romany style, with no accent on the last beat, or oriental, with the accent on the last beat. Might have been on Artemis's Turkish DVD.

Yes, exactly. There's a 9/8 rhythm that is, in the U.S. at least, called 'karsilama.'

The dance 'karsilama' is something else again.

My notes are at home, so I may be misremembering.

I think the word karslima can refer to a variety of things, including "coming to together" specific line dances (which are folk dances in nature and are not Romani in origin) and some forms of the 9/8 rhythm (which are often used for Romani dance and music, but are also used for Oriental dance and music)...which is where the confusion comes from. I think your writer may be saying that a "karslima" dancerefers to a traditional line dance originating from an area of Turkey, and that THAT dance isn't a Romani dance...but that's not to say that the 9/8 karslima isn't used in Romani dance.

And then there are subsets words for the "Karslima" rhythm that indicate how fast it is played, where the accents fall, if it is thought of as rough or smooth (agir? Tulumn? the like...)

and, dang, it gets confusing...
And I'm hungry...which allways ffs up my typing.

Now I am confused. I have a dvd and the instructor calls a step the karslama. She pronounces is "Karshlima" Does this step exist?

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

Now I am confused. I have a dvd and the instructor calls a step the karslama. She pronounces is "Karshlima" Does this step exist?

There is no universally used standard of bellydance terminology. I'm betting that the step is used to 9/8 rhythm and is probably what that teacher (and maybe that teacher's teacher) calls it. I don't know of any one step called the karshlima/karsilama, but I bet a lot of teachers have a step they call karshlima/karsilama.

The step exists -- any step that a dancer does exists -- but a standard name for the step does not.

I've been taught a lot of steps called the 'karsilama' (yes, pronounced kar-sh-la-MA'). All that means is that when this teacher hears the karsilama rhythm, s/he tends to think of this step first.

There are no standard naming conventions in bellydance. We use a lot of the same movements, but everyone calls them something different. Very frustrating at times.

Short answer: the different terms mean different things depending on who you're talking to.

If you're talking to an American dancer (or a musician who is used to playing for american dancers), karsilama refers to:

- music played in 9/8 time (usually with the emphasis on the 1-3-5-789) including songs like Rompi Rompi and Mastika

- dancing done to that music, which draws heavily on standard oriental repertoire, but also includes some distinct moves (pelvic tilts, etc.), and (in the american cabaret style) can include skirt manipulation.

- a particular step commonly used in american-style karsilama of "forward, place place place" (step forward onto the right foot, step on the left foot in place, step onto the right foot in its original place, step on the left foot in place) done on the 1357 of the beat. It's very similar to a Turkish step (which I learned from Artemis Mourat as the "heel step") that goes step right (often but not always forward), step left, step right, lift & drop the right heel, step left done on the 13578 of the beat. It is my *guess* but *not a historical fact* that the "karsilama step" is probably a simplification of the heel step.

(continued)

(continued)

If you are talking to a Turk, you'll get a different answer. I don't have the expertise in this area to tell you what that answer is, and I've seen contradictory information from different Turks, so take all of this with a really big grain of salt. But here's what I gather:

- Turkish and Turkish Romani music use several different rhythms in 9/8 time that differ in which beats are hit, and which are hit with dums vs. teks (just like there are a lot of different 4/4 rhythms). This includes one called "karsilama" that accents on the 13578, and one called "agir roman" that emphasizes the 1357 and then "9&". (It's also got a great one called "tulum" that hits 1578.)

I got most of this information from a workshop by Tayyar Akdeniz and his CD Rhythms of Turkey Vol. 1.

- when referring to "karsilama" as a dance, Turks usually mean a social/line dance done by the general public. It does not appear to be a fully choreographed line dance like the macarena or electric slide (somebody correct me on this if I'm wrong), but it does seem to use a lot of stepping/crossing and some hopping. Most clips I've seen use the karsilama rhythm mentioned above, but I've heard it can also be done to other rhythms. This is my favorite clip, but tough to see:
http://www.youtube.com/v/FAVbATPSUGg&hl=en

I also like this one (somewhat stage-ified, but includes a lot of moves from that family) by Ahmet Luleci:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl8rmWZDWDY]YouTube - Ahmet Luleci[/ame]

Turkish belly dancers do dance to 9/8 music in an oryantal routine, but (to the best of my knowledge) they don't have a specific name for it, except when they're specifically doing romani style, when it'll be usually be called "roman havasi" (i.e., romani dance). Here are two of my favorite clips:

Didem:
http://www.youtube.com/v/NVkMxvfcjPU

Reyhan Tuzsuz:
http://www.youtube.com/v/wqiOxO53o7c

Elizabeth Strong:
(Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/v/7ZyjIoXyJXQ

(Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/v/LVAkLe1OQY0&hl=en&fs=1


Does that make any sense? Does anybody disagree?

There is another thread now about this and it has some conficlicting things I am so confuesed now........

Hello my name is Gonul Cengiz we are the owners of Fazil Studios in New York City and now we have also relocated to Istanbul Turkey. I am writing to you from our Istanbul Studios.
We have scheduled various Dance Classes here at Fazil’s and I still have not opened Oriental Class!
The only Artistic Dancer that I saw who has respect for Dance is Mr. Ahmet Ogren who is an exceptional dancer as well as a teacher.

I am planning to bring him to USA I would like to get in contact with Sponsors that would like to became part of this WORKSHOP

Gonul C. Turker
Fazil Studio NYC in Istanbul, Turkey
Wellcome to Fazil Studio NYC
E-Mail: fazilstudionyc@yahoo.com

AHMET OGREN
TURKISH ROMAN DANCER

BIOGRAPHY

I started dancing professionally in 1978. I’ve accompanied as a dancer, various renowned artists on TV and stage shows. I have choreopraphed shows and presented Turkish Folklore Dance and toured through out Turkey with my group
called “ MEZDEKE “
I have given Gypsy and Oriental Dance instructions to dancers from all over the world.

I am still active in dance in Istanbul I also have traveled internationally giving workshops in Gypsy dance at Holland, Belgium, Sweeden, Italy, Germany, Greece, France and Japan.

Ahmet Ogren
Explanation between Roman Dance and Karsilama

Dear Dancers,
Thank you very much for sharing your prespectives about me. I would like to share my 30 years of Dance experience and 20 years of my research on Roman Dance with you.
First we must come to understand that:
1- KARSILAMA is not a Roman Dance.
2- No Oriental Dancer in Turkey, will ever do KARSILAMA dance as part of their dance routine.
The reason of similarity between Karsilama and the Roman dance is the fact that they both share 9/8 rythm. All music that has 9/8 rythm is not a Roman music.
Karsilama Dance has rules and regulations, without these rules there wont be a Karsilama Dance!
These Rules are:
1- Measures must be within 9
2- Handkerchief must be used.
3- Most important part of the dance is that it must be danced with at least two or more people. It is never done as a Solo Dance.

Roman Dance is an indivudual dance and is a dance of improvisation. Roman Dancer dances according to what one feels with in the music that is being played.
In order to dance Romany dance one must do a research on Roman Dance. Their life style and mentallity must be taken to consideration.
The reason for all this confusement is the result of some dancers taking few Roman Classes then teaching others there amature way interpreting, Roman Dance. This as a result harms The Turkish Roman Dance.
If you want to really learn Roman Dance then research on your teachers as well, swirling the skirts does not make a Roman Dancer!
Of course you can dance to 9/8 but do not say, “ I am dancing to Karsilama or Roman.”

Originally Posted by annwyn

There is another thread now about this and it has some conficlicting things I am so confuesed now........

That thread is about the rhythm we call Karsilama. Not the Karsilama dance (which, as far as I can tell, bellydancers don't do. At least I've never seen one).

ok so saying "belly dancing to the karsilama" meaning i am dancing to a 9/8 song.

saying im dancing the karsilama is saying i am dancing a line dance

Do i have it now?

Yes, that's pretty much it. I'm not 100% sure the karsilama is a line dance, exactly, but close enough.

Originally Posted by annwyn

ok so saying "belly dancing to the karsilama" meaning i am dancing to a 9/8 song.

saying im dancing the karsilama is saying i am dancing a line dance

Do i have it now?

That's it exactly, except that quite a few (probably most) american dancers do say "doing a karsilama" to refer to "belly dancing to the karsilama rhythm".

It's all about context: kind of like the word "biscuit" meaning two very different things in the US and UK. :)

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

It's all about context: kind of like the word "biscuit" meaning two very different things in the US and UK. :)

Amen on the context comment! One has to know what one talks about, and one has to know who one talks to.

And, to add to the food part, in German kitchens, "Biskuit" usually means a sponge-type dough ;-) Yum, yum.

On a related note -- words and language and context -- could we please try to stick with Rom/Romany(i)/Roma as the adjectives for this dance and culture in English, and leave "Roman" to people and things from Rome?

I'm not picking on anyone here, I promise, and obviously the folks for whom English is not a native language or a fluent second language will use whatever term is most natural for them. I'm just imagining that if we don't try to preserve the distinction that exists in English, then down the road we'll end up having to explain to newbies not only that Rom dances aren't originally from Romania, they're not from Italy, either. Capisci?

(Anybody got a cookie? Or a biscuit? Or some Biskuit with fruit and whipped cream on top? Or a biscotto or possibly even a fried artichoke, since we've stopped off in Rome? I'm starving!)

I get the biscut thing, being a first generation american with a british mother, it makes total sence to me

I agree with the Roma vs Roman thing I only used it becuse the e mail used it and i didnt want to cause confusion......

I figured that, and I didn't want you to think I was speaking only to you. It's something I've been meaning to mention for a while and thought I'd take the opportunity since it came up again. Hope I didn't offend!

Originally Posted by Zana

could we please try to stick with Rom/Romany(i)/Roma as the adjectives for this dance and culture in English, and leave "Roman" to people and things from Rome?

*we* can, but Turkish people will continue to say 'Roman' because apparently that's the word in Turkey. They don't use Romany or Roma or Rom. Turkish people keep correcting me when I insist on using Romany. And if you want to find examples of the dance style on youtube, you need to search for 'Roman Havasi' and not Romani or Roma or anything else because that's just not what they call it.

I've struggled with this one, because I'd like my students to have the 'proper' term so they can find more info on the topic and not sound ignorant to a Turkish person if they happen to talk to one. But I personally find Roman VERY confusing.

I understand -- that's why I made the distinction I did above. With students I think I'd start with the English terms but make sure they also have the Turkish equivalents ("flagged" as foreign) to use in their research.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN USA

AHMET OGREN WILL BE DOING A USA TOUR INTRODUCING TURKISH ROMAN DANCE!

Usa tour is being scheduled for Ahmet Ogren, he will focus on Roman Dance Turkish Style.

The Tour will start on NOVEMBER 8th of 2008

We have Chicago for the week of November 8th and the 9th

California LA is scheduled for November 14th, 15th and the 16th

New Mexico is scheduled for November 22nd & the 23rd

November 29th and the 30th is stil open for a sponsor

December 6th and the 7th New York City

Those who are interested please contact:

fazilstudionyc@yahoo.com

FAZIL STUDIO NYC

Yes, they do use Roman in Turkey, which makes it somewhat confusing. Since I talk to Turkish people alot, I often end up saying it too....
But I try to also say "Rom, Roma or Romani" so people know here what I'm talking about. "Rom" by the way means "man" in Romani,, but the women also use this term....
The word KarŞilama means "meeting" or "reunion" in Turkish and is a dance done by more than one person as Ahmet said.... NOT alone by one dancer, hence the confusion. I think the word was misused long ago in the history of Oriental dance in the U.S. and somehow stuck....
hence the confusion....

Oh, MAN!!! Why is Ahmet coming to Chicago on a weekend I've already committed to be somewhere else? *sob*

I hope his USA tour is VERY successful so he'll come back again and again!

Originally Posted by gonulcengiz

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN USA

AHMET OGREN WILL BE DOING A USA TOUR INTRODUCING TURKISH ROMAN DANCE!

We have Chicago for the week of November 8th and the 9th

I gotta go!!! Who's hosting?

AHMET OGREN will be in LA California
CONTACT E-Mail:
velvetgypsy1@aol.com
The Velvet Gypsy - At theVelvetGypsy.com

Very soon we will give the
New Mexico information
THANK YOU for your interest
Fazil Studio NYC

Chicago is still being worked at..
Also Washington DC is being looked into.. Stay put Dancers..
__________________
Fazil Studio NYC in Istanbul Turkey

In Ahmet's workshop he actually said there was no Karsilma rhythm originally, that it is a partner dance (that literally means face-to-face) that could be done to several of the 9/8 variations. He said now there is a style of 9/8 music (possibly due to our influence) that is most commonly used with karsilama, just as there is one 9/8 variation that is most common with Turkish Roman. The rest of what he said falls in line with what Nadira Jamal said above (as far as I can tell, anyway, as it was translated quickly).

Ahmet also noted that in Turkish Roman style dance, if you do not express the accent at "and-a" before the (soft) 1 everytime, then it is not Roman dance!