Thread: Pure Egyptian question re: sword floorwork, etc.

I have an Egyptian style question. My troupe and I auditioned last April against 20 some other bellydance acts for a festival that we thought would be fairly casual. We were chosen a few weeks ago, but didn't receive all the information on the gig until last Friday. Turns out, we were the ONLY bellydance troupe (aside from an ATS troupe) that was chosen to perform at this event. I feel really flattered. I was actually also really surprised though to find out that we were picked because we are not fusion and we will be representing the country of Egypt. Wow! That's a lot of pressure. That is crazy. I am sooooo worried now because in our sword part of the 12 minute routine do, two of the dancers go down to the ground and do the windmill (aka fish flop).

My question is - isn't it considered "dirty" in Egypt to go down to the floor? Do dancer's in Cairo go down to the floor? Is this purely an American thing?

An Ambassador for Egypt is supposed to be at this event to see us and it was made clear to me that my troupe must appropriately represent the country of Egypt. In fact, the director of the event wasn't that thrilled that none of us are of Egyptian decent. I told her that two of us are Lebanese, but that really didn't make her any happier.

Our routine consists of opening with a Hakim song and veil piece, then the sword piece to a more ethnic/folkloric music, then a Tabla solo (Raks Aswan), and a short Egyptian classical closing.

Here are our costumes - so, I hope they are Egyptian-enough. It is what we wore for the audition.
MySpace.com - Jewels of the North Casbah Lounge June 2008 - Photo 9 of 11

You can see part of our tabla solo on the festival website under performer information for Vahana and Jewels of the North. Sacramento World Music & Dance Festival


Please, I really welcome any feedback.

Thank you in advance!

From what I understand, and granted, I am no expert in Egyptian style, but they do not do sword work-that is mostly American and although you will see Dina and some of the other contemporary dancers doing some floorwork, you will not see them rolling around (fish flop) as you say. Have you considered doing a cane piece instead? That would be the most appropriate thing to do as it is very traditionally Egyptian. You can balance a cane on the head as easily as a sword and that, too, I have seen done. Good luck.

My question is - isn't it considered "dirty" in Egypt to go down to the floor? Do dancer's in Cairo go down to the floor? Is this purely an American thing?

It is currently illegal to get on your knees or side, or on the floor at all, in Egypt when you are performing raqs sharqi. It is legal to do so if you are performing folkloric dances (including shamadan). I am not sure where a sword balancing dance would fall here, sorry. I don't believe you could categorize sword balancing as Egyptian folklore, though. (I am nt putting down sword balancing, I like and do it, too. I personally would not choose to do it to represent Egyptian dance, though, unless I was explicitly using a more fantasy approach.)

I have seen video footage and photographs of old school 'awalim dancers on the floor while doing Oriental dance, but these days it would not happen in a public venue unless perhaps it was a wealthy dancer who could afford the fine and wanted to make splash or something.

Basically, floorwork probably was a part of the origins of Egyptian raqs sharqi, but is not a part of modern (post-1950s) Egyptian raqs sharqi.


P.S. Congrats on getting the gig. :)

Originally Posted by Vahana

An Ambassador for Egypt is supposed to be at this event to see us and it was made clear to me that my troupe must appropriately represent the country of Egypt. In fact, the director of the event wasn't that thrilled that none of us are of Egyptian decent. I told her that two of us are Lebanese, but that really didn't make her any happier.

In this case, I would not do sword if I were you. Change it to cane, or better yet candelabra (in which case some floorwork is appropriate). If you must keep the sword section, introduce it as an American-Egyptian fusion piece.

I agree with all of you..sounds like the organizer would like to please the Ambassador, and the last thing she wants is to appear insensitive by proxy. He may be gracious enough to not say anything to her, but better to be safe.

Thank you so much to everyone! I hadn't even thought about the aspects of the swords not being authentic Egyptian. We have canes, not tahteeb, but canes and we will use those instead. Plus, I'll take out the floor work.

I can't thank you all enough! My mentor, Princess Farhana, is travelling and I haven't been able to reach her yet, so it really helps to get the expert advise from those here on bhuzz.

Oh, and I also forgot to mention that the reason I was so freaked out about this is that I learned this information out Friday, and the gig is Sunday, Sept. 21st!!!

We'll do the same choreography with the canes instead of sword. Whew. I feel better having more knowledge.

If it was me I would do a nice entrance song from Um Kalthoum instead of Hakim (you want to dance to the best right? and to show that you understand and appreciate Egyptian culture) also ditch the sword and the cane. edited: I meant to say ditch the sword and do the cane.Drum solo is great and finish with a nice Egyptian song (again, I wouldn't choose pop songs I would choose something nicer).

It's a lot of pressure :))
oh yes, just to clarify, of course not a song with Um Kalthoum's voice but a nice orchestrated version.

A "veil dance" would also not be Egyptian. The Egyptian dancers only use the veil for entrances to oriental routines.

Originally Posted by Vahana

T
We'll do the same choreography with the canes instead of sword.

Wait...what??? Do a sword choreography with canes?

Unless this is a Saidi choreo ro Saidi music in Saidi costuming, or a heavily beledi choreography in beledi costuming -- neither of which I can imagine with swords -- I wouldn't do that.

The Eygptian ambassador isn't going to be fooled by sticking Egyptian props into an American or fusion choreo. He isn't going to be thrilled with having Egypt wholly represented by bellydance/raqs sharqi either!!!

Can your group, or any individual within your group do some actual Saidi dancing, to the proper music and with the proper costuming? Or beledi, or hagala? Shamadan? Or any other Egyptian dances besides raqs sharqi/bellydance in a bedlah?

Can someone in your group pull off an emotional Omm K. piece? Or bellydance in a truly Egyptian style?

Definitely kill floorwork, veil dances (other than entrances), sword, and I wouldn't do pop unless I was doing audience participation.

If Egyptian style isn't your thing and you don't have a lot of knowledge about it, then I'd seriously consider telling the organizer that. No sense jumping into an area that you don't have a lot of expertise in and potentially embarassing the organizer, the Ambassador and yourselves. Just explain to her that there are MANY styles of bellydance, and yours is more Turkish/American influenced with North African elements.

Not being Egyptian-style dancers doesn't make you a bad bellydance group, but it would make you a bad choice to represent Egypt in front of the Ambassador at a festival!!

If you have a beledi, ghawazee, saiidi, or other folkloric style piece, I would suggest adding that to your set and removing any floorwork, sword, or American-style veilwork. Baladi taqsim, an emotional Um Kolthoum piece, something folkloric, and something upbeat like a drum solo would probably go over well.

Really, it sounds like the "representing Egypt" was a surprise punch from left-field for you guys, and it sounds like the organizer is the one who is to blame for the misunderstanding -- she liked your act enough to choose it, but didn't understand what she was seeing, and has now promised something entirely different.

That being said -- Everything Lauren said. Up to and including withdrawing from the gig if you can't either 1) have your act billed as what it really is -- an American style belly dance routine or 2) pull together a truly Egyptian set.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Wait...what??? Do a sword choreography with canes?

Unless this is a Saidi choreo ro Saidi music in Saidi costuming, or a heavily beledi choreography in beledi costuming -- neither of which I can imagine with swords -- I wouldn't do that.

The Eygptian ambassador isn't going to be fooled by sticking Egyptian props into an American or fusion choreo. He isn't going to be thrilled with having Egypt wholly represented by bellydance/raqs sharqi either!!!

Can your group, or any individual within your group do some actual Saidi dancing, to the proper music and with the proper costuming? Or beledi, or hagala? Shamadan? Or any other Egyptian dances besides raqs sharqi/bellydance in a bedlah?

Can someone in your group pull off an emotional Omm K. piece? Or bellydance in a truly Egyptian style?

Definitely kill floorwork, veil dances (other than entrances), sword, and I wouldn't do pop unless I was doing audience participation.

If Egyptian style isn't your thing and you don't have a lot of knowledge about it, then I'd seriously consider telling the organizer that. No sense jumping into an area that you don't have a lot of expertise in and potentially embarassing the organizer, the Ambassador and yourselves. Just explain to her that there are MANY styles of bellydance, and yours is more Turkish/American influenced with North African elements.

Not being Egyptian-style dancers doesn't make you a bad bellydance group, but it would make you a bad choice to represent Egypt in front of the Ambassador at a festival!!

Originally Posted by ssipes

Really, it sounds like the "representing Egypt" was a surprise punch from left-field for you guys, and it sounds like the organizer is the one who is to blame for the misunderstanding -- she liked your act enough to choose it, but didn't understand what she was seeing, and has now promised something entirely different.

Yes, yes, that's exactly how it seemed to me, too!

Originally Posted by Vahana

In fact, the director of the event wasn't that thrilled that none of us are of Egyptian decent. I told her that two of us are Lebanese, but that really didn't make her any happier.

First of all,yes-it will probably be recieved better by the ambassador if you make the changes that everyone here suggests.

My experience with ambassador guys:
The group I perform in has danced for the lebanese ambassador,and I danced for the egyptian ambassador at an egyptian wedding (without knowing he was there)
They have both called us after since then to thank us for shows that consisted of different mixes of entrance,classical,taxim,popular songs,ashra beledi progression,folkloric,drumsolo and Oum Kalsoum.
Both expressed positive surprise to *not*see us going out in the audience for tips,doing floorwork(although I LOVE Aida Nours floorwork) or dancing with snakes.

Just have to add:
Being disappointed that you don´t "have bellydance in your blood" because of not being of egyptian descent,I guess?

Well ..c::,m::
I get so annoyed whenever I hear someone say anything like that!

(I state on my own webpage that I don´t have any "ethnic competence")

I was offended a bit because one of my dancers and I are both Lebanese, but that didn't really satisfy the director because we aren't "Egyptian."

I don't know. I feel a bit put off because they picked us out of all the troupes and duets who auditioned based on the routine they saw us perform. It is the same routine. It included sword, w/ floor work, me on goblets, the Bollywood fusion piece, plus the raks sharki tabla piece and classic Egyptian closing. It is the same piece, but now it is not what we are being asked to perform.

Now, with one week to go, the stress is on to change what we have been practicing for months. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. I also understand that cane is most appropriately done with proper costuming, music, and saidi steps - but I can't expect my troupe to learn an entire new routine or buy new costumes in one week.

So, while we have no problem losing the Bollywood piece and sub'ing in a veil entrance (which is what I meant by a "veil piece"), and I have no problem with eliminating the floor work and swords, we are not changing our costumes. I think I will have to call the director in the morning and explain to her that while our performance is Egyptian-influenced and not fusion, she should change the designation in the program to Middle Eastern Raqs Sharqi so that we are not specifically "representing" the country of Egypt.

We may lose the gig over this, we may not. But what ever is meant to be will happen, so I feel I need to get the pressure off and make it clear to the director that we cannot change into a folkloric Egyptian group in one week.

Originally Posted by Vahana

I think I will have to call the director in the morning and explain to her that while our performance is Egyptian-influenced and not fusion, she should change the designation in the program to Middle Eastern Raqs Sharqi so that we are not specifically "representing" the country of Egypt.

... I need to get the pressure off and make it clear to the director that we cannot change into a folkloric Egyptian group in one week.

This makes a lot of sense to me, and I really like the way you've worded it here.

I think dropping canes into a sword choreo would just be confusing -- if you do as you say above, you can just leave it as a sword choreo -- I don't even think you'd have to take out the floor work necessarily if you're not 'representing' Egypt.

Vahana, just ignore the organiser's insensitive comments about none of you being Egyptian. If she knew anything at all she shouldn't be that surprised.

I am sure that the ambassador will be happy with what you produce, even if you don't pull out the Om Khalsoum and hardcore beledi or cane. This sounds like a steep learning curve for you all and I am sure you will manage!

Thanks for the supportive words, Zumarrad!

I think your costumes look fine. They're pretty, they're tasteful, and appropriate for the kind of show you've described to us.

I'm sure you must have had an "Oh my!" reaction when you found out you were "representing" Egypt, considering that the ambassador will be in the audience!

I think it's great that you're being so conscientious about creating an act that will be pleasing to the Egyptian ambassador. Some dancers wouldn't even think to consider the question. On the basis of that alone, I'm sure you'll do a great show!

My troupe does a lot of cultural festivals. If you have your own MC as part of your show to announce exactly what you are doing that can help a lot - explain this piece is fusion, this one is classical Egyptian, etc. so people know what they are seeing and you look knowledgeable about what you are presenting.

Originally Posted by ssipes

A "veil dance" would also not be Egyptian. The Egyptian dancers only use the veil for entrances to oriental routines.

Ditto on that and it's not a very elaborate veil routine for entrance either it's swirl, twirl & dump! Especially not the "unwrapping of veil from body and emphasizing bust or hips, etc.". Nope, that is a trademark AmCab style that Egyptians do not do because to them, it is too close to "stripping" even though we know it isn't. I'm very fond of veil work but don't do the elaborate stuff if I'm dancing to classic Egyptian music in an Egyptian costume. I save the veil work for Lebanese mixes or even Greek music but not the classic Egyptian stuff.

I think it is wise to play it safe and ditch the sword & floor work - cane is very authentically Egyptian folkloric and the ambassador will be well pleased.

Just an addendum to what Nisima says - folkloric, ie theatricalised Reda/National Folkloric Troupe style dancing is seen as classier than belly dancing over there. And I've never met an Egyptian yet who did't go all happy at the sight of saidi, *but* you must make sure the music is saidi otherwise they might go "huh?"

So, thanks to all the great input I received, I have remedied the problem.

I contacted the director of the event and told her that we are the same troupe as when we auditioned and that we cannot change, nor do we want to change, in only one week. I also told her that aside from removing the Bollywood fusion piece and floor work, we will be doing the exact same routine we did at the audition including the swords and goblets. I had her change our designation from "Representing the Country of Egypt" to "Middle Eastern Raqs Sharqi."

As I pointed out to her, even our name would confuse anyone who was looking for a pure ethnic or folkloric Egyptian troupe, e.g. Vahana and Jewels of the North. There isn't even anything Arabic about it. ..l;,

So, it's all good now and I thank everyone for their help. As always, I find bhuz to be a wealth of knowledge and a supportive sisterhood.

<<hugs>>

Applause....

Good job!!

Vahana, that is great! Seems like you handled it really well. I can't imagine having even having to consider changing a troupe routine in a week!

Break a finger cymbal.:Awink: