Thread: Classical Egyptian vs Modern Egyptian

Originally Posted by BWBChandani

That's interesting what Sahra said about it being a "Sahra thing".
Would Sahra be considered Modern Egyptian?

Just to claify - that was Egyptian dancers talking about Sahra's routine when Sahra was performing in Cairo - it struck her funny because drum solo finales were so common in the US - she didn't know that it would be so unusual over there. This was mid to late '80s.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I love Nanda's explanation, mainly because it gives my beloved Mona a pivotal position as an innovator rather than leaving her standing in the cold between eras as most breakdowns seem to!

So, can we begin cataloging movements specific to each style? And perhaps other identifying elements, like costuming, entrances, etc? I'm no expert, but these are my preliminary observations, just to start discussion. **PLEASE correct me where I'm wrong!!! And don't go about quoting me on any of this, I'm pulling it out of my a$$**

The quick elevator drop seems recent, is that primarily in the 'post-Dina' modern Cairo style? What about the turns with weight in the heels? Ribcage drops? Tiny traveling steps? Of course, the big butt-focused hip circle... Costuming becoming more minimalist, and more minimal, with short skirts, cutouts, less fringe and decoration.

Modern Egyptian - I'm still confused about this style. Is this Reda-based? And the Cairo style above is an offshoot under Raqia Hassan's umbrella? If so, then it's ballroom-ish swooping and turning, lots of Umm K. emoting, interspersed with very tiny, controlled shimmies and a few traditional BD articulations tossed in for good measure. (tongue firmly in cheek here)

Golden Cinema era -- is that mostly where we see the ballroom-style turns, swaying torsos, graceful traveling steps? I'm finding it hard to generalize further because the styles seem so different to me among the dancers of the era --

Golden Age (Fifi, Soheir, Nagwa, Nadia Gamal would go here?) -- A return to a more baladi style? Somewhat less ballroom/Ballet/Western influence? Maybe not Nagwa...Long, full skirts that might show plenty of leg. Loads of fringe a must. Varieties of shimmies, layering. Bold, strong personalities. "Tricks" like backbends, splits -- spins are more 'tricksy,' too, less graceful. Focus on torso articulations (shoulders, hips) rather than

OK, help me out... I've already veered far away from movement vocabulary.

This is HARD!!

You can tell I hang out with comic book geeks too much -- I always think of Samia and Tahia as Golden Age and Soheir and Nagwa as Silver Age. :)

I don't know where the drum solo originated, I do know that when my former dance teacher participated in a competition a couple of years ago where Raqia Hassan was one of the judges, Raqia asked her after the competition why she'd felt she had to do a drum solo at the end of her dance, as if genuinely perplexed about it.
BTW is Sahra Saeeda the same person as Sahra Kent? Always wondered this.

Regards
Priscilla

Yes, Sahra Saheeda and Sahra Kent are the same person.

"The quick elevator drop seems recent, is that primarily in the 'post-Dina' modern Cairo style? What about the turns with weight in the heels?"


I've noticed that more and more dancers are turning on their heels lately too.

Why is there a trend towards heels turns instead of staying on the balls of the feet?

Anyone else notice this?

I noticed it. I don't know why alot of people are doing it nowadays. It's certainly not easier (or in my opinion, prettier) than turning on the balls of the feet.
Perhaps because Dina does it and it's popular now? I saw Tito doing it too.
My least favorite modern move, if you can call it that, is downturned hands. Aaack! I much prefer Samia hands and Soheir Zaki hands. ..g.:

Regards
Priscilla

Yes, the first time I noticed a dancer turn on her heels instead of the balls of her feet is Dina. Dina does both. My guess is that Dina made this style popular.

Originally Posted by jessedan

I noticed it. I don't know why alot of people are doing it nowadays. It's certainly not easier (or in my opinion, prettier) than turning on the balls of the feet.
Perhaps because Dina does it and it's popular now? I saw Tito doing it too.
My least favorite modern move, if you can call it that, is downturned hands. Aaack! I much prefer Samia hands and Soheir Zaki hands. ..g.:

Regards
Priscilla

I agree with Lauren. I notice that Dina really choreos to the drum, and not they basic rhythm, but the drummer playing over the rhythm with accents. So to me, Dina is usually one long melodramatic, delicate drum solo with some spins and jerks thrown in for good measure (I love love love Dina).

Raqia's students really have more variety than that, are flashier with more movement. Im also a big fan of the Cairo style.

That being said, sooo love classical Egyptian as well, bigger grander elegant more variety of movement, moves, bigger smiles, more drama than melodrama. Hmmmm, Im done cleaning for the day, time to make some low fat low salt popcorn and pop in a classic video.

The BEST drum solos I've EVER seen are by Mona Said (big stage, sparce gold costume) and Sohair Zeki (small cabaret performance in early 80's).

American dancers seem to always end with a drum solo - even on short routines - and I think THAT may have been behind Raqia's comment to the dancer mentioned above. It's not always necessary and could be a jarring transition from one song straight into a drum solo.

I was just watching the Dina workshop 2007 from Montreal (I was there, but needed a refresher) and noticed a lot of these differences - like the turning on the heels. I hadn't thought about the dancing to the drum and I'm not entirely sure I agree with that all the time - I can think of specific places where she was on top of the melody as well.

It's been a year since I took the workshop and while I loved it, I think I've realized now that I don't really want to dance like Dina. How she interprets the music and uses her body is different from what feels like "me". It was funny because I really thought that workshop had inspired me and changed my entire style of dance, but I guess it didn't really. Note - I still think Dina is awesome!

I'm glad that turning in the heels isn't an Egyptian requirement - I still can't do it.

This thread has been awesome and has inspired me to go watch more videos and start noticing the little details like hands and how they are turning.

Originally Posted by bahaia

American dancers seem to always end with a drum solo - even on short routines -

today, I agree that's what you see. To me, a multi-part routine ending on a drum solo seems unfinished as when I was taught the old (here's that controversial term ) AmCab routine it was stressed to me that you ended your set with a karsilama or a reprise of the opening number, not with the drum solo.



Edited to add: Bahaia -- can't wait for your Combin-ography video to be released!!

The trouble with definitions is that all dancers are different. i watch Samia Gamal and some of her moves and costuming look very modern, and I watch more modern dancers and some of their moves look very Golden age-every star dances to their own body and their own strengths thats what makes them a star.

Originally Posted by jessedan

I noticed it. I don't know why alot of people are doing it nowadays. It's certainly not easier (or in my opinion, prettier) than turning on the balls of the feet.
Perhaps because Dina does it and it's popular now? I saw Tito doing it too.

After working on those turns for a while, I think it's a popular turn now because of the aftereffect it has on the upper body. A heel turn is sharp and fast and when you stop, the upper body can do a kind of sway-stop in its aftermath. And then of course you can play around with that by making the sway and stop either soft or sharp. It's a movement that fits very well in the modern Cairo movement vocabulary, what to some people might look herky-jerky but to me looks like an exquisite playing with timing and emphasis ..g.:

Originally Posted by danidance

Nothing to add here except - GREAT thread! keep it goin!

Yes, I am getting quite an education too.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I would never have thought to seperate these two. Hmmmm. Ponders.

You know there was a time, pre nile group I think, where there were heaps of Egyptian teachers around, nearly all ex reda, but you didn't get actual Cairo dancers teaching all that much, if at all.

During that period there was a greater divide between Modern Egyptian Reda-esque style and Cairo style raqs sharqi. What we were getting taught vs what was happening in Cairo.

Originally Posted by BWBChandani

Thanks for all of the feedback.



When did we move into the Modern Egyptian Era and into the Modern Cairo era?

Personally I have always tagged the start of the change with Mona Said

Here I was thinking this was a new thread....lol. I promise my self all the time that I'm going to read through all the posts before replying. Doh.

Yeah, I thought this was another thread about Modern and Classical Egyptian, until I came across my own posts and thought, When did I write THAT? ..l;,

I attended a Bozenka workshop last August which was billed as "Classical Egyptian Style Workshop". My first thought was...Bozenka dances classical Egyptian??? Who knew?
So I went, and I was dissapointed to find that it wasn't classical style at all but rather very modern Egyptian style. She did alot of moves that I've seen both Raqia and Tito do...and the little choreography she taught us was VERY Tito style.
So, I guess different people have different ideas of what classical and modern styles are.


Regards
Priscilla

I think there is also a problem in that a lot of dancers who are NOT involved in oriental dance think anything Egyptian is "classical", because they think it, like American Cabaret/whatever, belongs to "the past". And thus saying "classical" might be a marketing tool for someone like Bozenka who, being a BDSS type, is going to be the only "Egyptian" some of those dancers have ever seen.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

Personally I have always tagged the start of the change with Mona Said

What is Lucy generally considered? I was watching some footage of her that I would guess from the hairstyles, etc was from the mid 80s, and she struck me as really transitional between a classical style and modern Dina, Randa et al.

Originally Posted by jessedan

She did alot of moves that I've seen both Raqia and Tito do...and the little choreography she taught us was VERY Tito style.

I am so over that guy

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

What is Lucy generally considered? I was watching some footage of her that I would guess from the hairstyles, etc was from the mid 80s, and she struck me as really transitional between a classical style and modern Dina, Randa et al.

I agree with your view of Lucy. Transitional. I love young Lucy and readily admit to not being that up on her recent work... but those oh so graceful arms and very straight legged shimmy... Love It!

In a way it's hard to put anyone in a hard and fast box because they all span eras. Though, Dina near on started an era of her own; there was hardly anyone else up and coming at that time and most of us online were lamenting the lack of a Cairo dance scene, didn't think it would ever be a shadow of what it was... not that it is what it was but at least it's something.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

After working on those turns for a while, I think it's a popular turn now because of the aftereffect it has on the upper body. A heel turn is sharp and fast and when you stop, the upper body can do a kind of sway-stop in its aftermath. And then of course you can play around with that by making the sway and stop either soft or sharp. It's a movement that fits very well in the modern Cairo movement vocabulary, what to some people might look herky-jerky but to me looks like an exquisite playing with timing and emphasis ..g.:

Nice observation.

In the specific place in the choreo on day one with the heel turn, it provided a very nice contrast to some more gooey movements. It's like a "whoosh".

On a related note, could anyone tell me why there's a common belief that Egyptian dancers do not make use of the stage and only dance "on the spot"? Did that occur in a certain era where some teachers may have gotten that impression?

Because when I watch Egyptian dancers, I do not see them stay in one spot for the whole dance - unless maybe it's the beginning of a beledi progression, they seem to move around and also the choreography videos I have seem to involve quite a bit of moving around too.

Taheya Carioca was admired for expressing alot through movement in a small amount of space... or perhaps it comes from baladi style dancing which isn't a huge space eater.

But other than that, not sure. It's odd that there is a perception that really getting around the stage is somehow not authentic Egyptian sharqi.

Isn't it more the other way round. western dancers sometimes tend to circulate too much in small space.

I started working with Egyptian dancers in the end of the 70s, before Sahra. Mona had been doing her signature drum solo for over a year and every other dancer I worked with did a drum solo as well. We were all expected to do one at the end of our shows.

Golden era to me are the black and white movie star/dancers. Classical Egyptian are the dancers I worked with; Mona Said, Nelly Fouad, Sahar Hamdi, Aizza Sharif, Shoo Shoo Amin, Nadia Hamdi, Zizi Moustapha, Fifi Abdou and Sohair Zuki. Nagwa was in a world of her own because she was the only one at the time that did serious choreography (she had issues with keeping the beat).

Transitional dancers to me were Dina, Lucy and Ida Nour. Ida more for the time period she danced rather than her style. These women started later in the 80s. Then the Berlin wall came down, the Russians invaded the Cairo dance scene, and suddenly everyone was doing ballet style choreography. Raqia Hassan became famous (as a teacher, not as a performer. To my knowledge she was never a solo cabaret artist), along with the Reda troup folklore teachers. The knees/legs got straighter (as Zummarad correctly noticed), weight shifted foward onto the toes more and the upper body jazz-like movements came into fashion. The tempo sped up, many more steps were squeezed into the phrasing and audience participation was no longer quite as important.

Five years after I returned to the States in 1991 my dancing was already considered too slow and old fashioned. I became a dinosaur about 10 years ago, I think. Now it's all about the choreographies, costume changes and how many musicians are in a dancer's orchestra. I had 10 people in mine, and that was enough then. Leila says that for many weddings she has to show up with 25 or the customers think they are being cheated.

Perhaps in a nutshell, it's more about the show now and less about intimite interpretation of the music. As for specific movements, that's a long list. Heel turns are Dina's. Knee shimmies are Raqia's. No one did them her way when I was working. The knees were loose (Fifi Abdou is a great example) but the shimmy didn't originate from them. Hip work was more important than upper body movement. Kicks were very rare. Reverse camels didn't exist. We worked on the toes and covered the stage when it was large enough, but often the stage was no bigger than 6x4. We made up for lack of movement with audience interaction. Most of us did cane and had only one costume change. I'm sure ther's lots of stuff I'm forgeting, but it comes back if I meditate on it.

Fascinating! I'm saving your post for future reference. Hope you do meditate on it...because I'd love to hear more on this! Thanks Serpentine.


Regards
Priscilla

Golden Era (cinema)- Badia Masabni, Samia, Tahayia, all that jazz. Less isolation, more free movement. The movements tend to be a bit medium sized, not too small, and the bigger movements tend to be the floating traveling stuff..... (you can totally confirm or deny anything i think)

Classical Era- Nagwa, Fifi, Soheir, movements become much more isolated. And the performance concepts of nagwa also developed a lot of other things that are continued to incorporate in the dance.

Transition Era- Lucy and Mona

Modern Egyptian- Randa, Dina, Raqia ..... I hadn’t really thought about seperating them.... Into a modern Cairo, can you you describe the differences between modern egyptian, and modern cairo?????

Thanks guys!!!

OH...dime dime dime dime, what do you consider belady style?????

Originally Posted by Serpentine

I started working with Egyptian dancers in the end of the 70s, before Sahra. Mona had been doing her signature drum solo for over a year and every other dancer I worked with did a drum solo as well. We were all expected to do one at the end of our shows.

Golden era to me are the black and white movie star/dancers. Classical Egyptian are the dancers I worked with; Mona Said, Nelly Fouad, Sahar Hamdi, Aizza Sharif, Shoo Shoo Amin, Nadia Hamdi, Zizi Moustapha, Fifi Abdou and Sohair Zuki. Nagwa was in a world of her own because she was the only one at the time that did serious choreography (she had issues with keeping the beat).

Transitional dancers to me were Dina, Lucy and Ida Nour. Ida more for the time period she danced rather than her style. These women started later in the 80s. Then the Berlin wall came down, the Russians invaded the Cairo dance scene, and suddenly everyone was doing ballet style choreography. Raqia Hassan became famous (as a teacher, not as a performer. To my knowledge she was never a solo cabaret artist), along with the Reda troup folklore teachers. The knees/legs got straighter (as Zummarad correctly noticed), weight shifted foward onto the toes more and the upper body jazz-like movements came into fashion. The tempo sped up, many more steps were squeezed into the phrasing and audience participation was no longer quite as important.

Five years after I returned to the States in 1991 my dancing was already considered too slow and old fashioned. I became a dinosaur about 10 years ago, I think. Now it's all about the choreographies, costume changes and how many musicians are in a dancer's orchestra. I had 10 people in mine, and that was enough then. Leila says that for many weddings she has to show up with 25 or the customers think they are being cheated.

Perhaps in a nutshell, it's more about the show now and less about intimite interpretation of the music. As for specific movements, that's a long list. Heel turns are Dina's. Knee shimmies are Raqia's. No one did them her way when I was working. The knees were loose (Fifi Abdou is a great example) but the shimmy didn't originate from them. Hip work was more important than upper body movement. Kicks were very rare. Reverse camels didn't exist. We worked on the toes and covered the stage when it was large enough, but often the stage was no bigger than 6x4. We made up for lack of movement with audience interaction. Most of us did cane and had only one costume change. I'm sure ther's lots of stuff I'm forgeting, but it comes back if I meditate on it.

Wow, that's so interesting Serpentine... thanks for sharing :-)