Thread: Classical Egyptian vs Modern Egyptian

Just came across this video that clearly shows Mona dancing in Modern Cairo Style, especially at the very end of the clip. I think this film really solidifies her role in the development of Modern Cairo Style.

I'm talking about Mona, dancing in the red dress in the second half of this clip.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWGECU-7C9M]YouTube - Bellydance in the Egyptian film - Mona Said منى السعيد[/ame]

Thanks for the clip Lauren

It makes me laugh though... golden age, classic, gulf, transitional, modern, cairo... whatever the style or era, there is nowhere but here that I can really obsess about such things and have people just as crazy to obsess with... :-)

Originally Posted by Candi

The trouble with definitions is that all dancers are different. i watch Samia Gamal and some of her moves and costuming look very modern, and I watch more modern dancers and some of their moves look very Golden age-every star dances to their own body and their own strengths thats what makes them a star.

Candi I feel like you are on to something here. So much of our stylistic classification revolves around the personal, individual styles of a few big-name dancers and the enormous impact those dancers had on everyone else. It just goes to show the great significance of one's personal, individual style in this dance. Dancers like Samia Gamal, Suhair Zaki, Dina are really forces of nature in that their styles are so unique to them, yet so emulated, that they practically individually define whole eras.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Candi I feel like you are on to something here. So much of our stylistic classification revolves around the personal, individual styles of a few big-name dancers and the enormous impact those dancers had on everyone else. It just goes to show the great significance of one's personal, individual style in this dance. Dancers like Samia Gamal, Suhair Zaki, Dina are really forces of nature in that their styles are so unique to them, yet so emulated, that they practically individually define whole eras.

Interesting.

But then, couldn't you make a few substitutions and say the same thing about any art?

Artist like Monet, Picasso, Jackson Pollack are really forces of nature in that their styles are so unique to them, yet so emulated, that they practically individually define whole eras.

Writers like Shakespeare, Faulkner, Joyce are really forces of nature in that their styles are so unique to them, yet so emulated, that they practically individually define whole eras.

And composers, architects, and so forth.

Artists are really trying to be uniquely themselves. They usually can't help but be affected by the artistic, political and social zeitgeist, of course. But only a few are strong enough to resist being defined by what's commercially viable in their era.

I think that no one is striving to BE in the box of a genre. But we have to try to PUT them there in order to have meaningful discussion.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

But then, couldn't you make a few substitutions and say the same thing about any art? And composers, architects, and so forth.

But that's getting at my point...as with most art forms, we're looking at developments over time that are both particular and organic. Attempting to box it all up into discrete categories is always going to be a frustrating effort fraught with a lot of subjectivity. While it's useful for discussion, we have to recognize that these categorizations/structures are imposed.

But we have to try to PUT them there in order to have meaningful discussion

That's interesting, though...WE have to try to put them there because WE (i.e. Westerners) operate under the assumption that something must be name-able, and classifiable, to be knowable. Western discourse!!!! *runs away gleefully muttering about postmodernism and Foucault*

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

But that's getting at my point...as with most art forms, we're looking at developments over time that are both particular and organic. Attempting to box it all up into discrete categories is always going to be a frustrating effort fraught with a lot of subjectivity. While it's useful for discussion, we have to recognize that these categorizations/structures are imposed.

Yes. Exactly. I wasn't disagreeing with you at all.

That's interesting, though...WE have to try to put them there because WE (i.e. Westerners) operate under the assumption that something must be name-able, and classifiable, to be knowable. Western discourse!!!! *runs away gleefully muttering about postmodernism and Foucault*

*speaking to Nisaa's muttering wake, since she's run off*

Hmmm... maybe. By 'we' I didn't mean Westerners, I meant humans. Westerners may be MORE apt to group and classify, I couldn't really say. But I feel certain that Middle Eastern art historians also group and classify in order to study, understand, and learn. Not bellydance, of course, but only because I don't think it's seen as a subject of study.

And Nissa gets the golden seal for successfully introducing Foucault into this thread ... :)

*runs back in* While all humans classify in order to organize their knowledge of the world around them, how classifications develop, the form they take, and the meaning perceived in them are driven by culture. This is why there will never be a rigorous formalization of raqs sharqi in the same way that there was a rigorous formalization of ballet...the cultural underpinnings are too different. I just don't think most Arabs are as obsessed with classification/taxonomy as we are in the West. While Reda formalized/structured/theatricalized Egyptian folklore, he did so as an individual artist heavily influenced by Western forms and approaches to dance, which is why ironically so many Western dancers disparagingly refer to his work as "fakelore."

No arguments here...cause I, too, find these kinds of classification/definition exercises useful to my own understanding. Still, I know my need to name stuff, clearly define periods of evolution of the dance, etc. comes squarely out of my own cultural background. I doubt Randa Kamal is out there sweating over where she fits in the scheme of the evolution of modern Egyptian style...she's just too busy creating it. :)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Just came across this video that clearly shows Mona dancing in Modern Cairo Style, especially at the very end of the clip. I think this film really solidifies her role in the development of Modern Cairo Style.

Lauren, I am curious - what is she doing that inspires you to call her a "Modern Cairo Style" dancer?
Yasmin

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

*runs back in* While all humans classify in order to organize their knowledge of the world around them, how classifications develop, the form they take, and the meaning perceived in them are driven by culture. This is why there will never be a rigorous formalization of raqs sharqi in the same way that there was a rigorous formalization of ballet...the cultural underpinnings are too different. I just don't think most Arabs are as obsessed with classification/taxonomy as we are in the West. While Reda formalized/structured/theatricalized Egyptian folklore, he did so as an individual artist heavily influenced by Western forms and approaches to dance, which is why ironically so many Western dancers disparagingly refer to his work as "fakelore."

No arguments here...cause I, too, find these kinds of classification/definition exercises useful to my own understanding. Still, I know my need to name stuff, clearly define periods of evolution of the dance, etc. comes squarely out of my own cultural background. I doubt Randa Kamal is out there sweating over where she fits in the scheme of the evolution of modern Egyptian style...she's just too busy creating it. :)

This. And one of the reasons Arabs are not so obsessed with doing this stuff is because BD is not "other" to them, it's culturally normative, it occupies a difficult position socially, it's not something to be looked at and categorised obsessively... and Arabs don't exist in a cultural vacuum. This is why I am really keen on breaking down the east/west binary when talking about BD, because it is not *useful*. It's still important to recognise the roles of various cultures and the fact that the dance is more "eastern" than "western", but getting all niggly about what's east and what's west and what's "authentic" and what isn't doesn't actually help.

Originally Posted by Serpentine

Lauren, I am curious - what is she doing that inspires you to call her a "Modern Cairo Style" dancer?
Yasmin

Oh, boy, Yasmin...I'm really terrible at breaking down the specifics of a dancer's technique and I hope someone who sees what I see can come along and explain it. I'm always in awe of the way other Bhuzzers analyze dance!

All I can say at the moment is that if I couldn't see her face, I would absolutely have thought I was watching Dina dance -- the way she holds her hands and upper body, the exact way that she shifts her weight, uses the momentum of her hips coming out of the hip circle, etc. I would certainly not have mistaken her for Fifi or Soheir or Nagwa (though Nagwa comes closer to this kind of style at times).

I promise, though, if no one comes along who's better at this, I'll watch the clip again and try to analyze for you what I'm seeing as modern Cairo style.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

This is why I am really keen on breaking down the east/west binary when talking about BD, because it is not *useful*. It's still important to recognise the roles of various cultures and the fact that the dance is more "eastern" than "western", but getting all niggly about what's east and what's west and what's "authentic" and what isn't doesn't actually help.

I agree with you here...it's just hard to dodge the "Western" vs. "Eastern" bit because this terminology encapsulates in a simplified way, for those of us who are NOT Arab, why we can't assume that Arab people will see dance, or music, or visual art, or ANYTHING in entirely the same way. The problem is that the terms are too simplistic, too monolithic, too "otherizing" of anyone non-white-European-Christian, and as you said, they are just not really useful. But I almost feel like we are stuck with them.

*Bangs head upon wall of semantic limitations*

Originally Posted by Lauren_

All I can say at the moment is that if I couldn't see her face, I would absolutely have thought I was watching Dina dance -- the way she holds her hands and upper body, the exact way that she shifts her weight, uses the momentum of her hips coming out of the hip circle, etc. I would certainly not have mistaken her for Fifi or Soheir or Nagwa (though Nagwa comes closer to this kind of style at times).

I promise, though, if no one comes along who's better at this, I'll watch the clip again and try to analyze for you what I'm seeing as modern Cairo style.

Perhaps what you are seeing then is Raqia Hassan's influence. I believe Mona was one of the first dancers she "coached." One of the intros on her old time videos is Raqia's choreography - the rainbow costume with the sleeves, if I'm not mistaken.

So I find this thread and eagering read everything so as to better classify myself (there it is again) and in turn, find out that I still don't really know. I tend to take everything from Golden to Modern Cairo and throw it all together.
I think I'll start calling myself a Cornicopia Egyptian Style Dancer.

Serpentine, please write more about your experiences-it's fascinating getting a dragonfly-on-the-wall view of the dance scene.... Thank all of ya'll for posting this fascinating information. I agree that dancers are like artists who are not aware that they are working within an "era" that will only be identified later.

There is something to be said about how people tend to develop similar concepts and styles independant of one another which then is looked back at later and defined as a "movement" as in fine arts. So regardless of the dissimilarities, there are still similarities. Did that make sense? Ah well, it's late.

ooops, I never came back to this thread!

Serpentine, I didn't know that Raqia was ever a teacher to Mona, but I'm certain that you're right, that must be what I'm seeing.

OK, to clarify what makes me think 'Modern Cairo' when I watch her, I think a LOT of it is her hand positions and the way her arms counter the weight of her hips as she does moves where the entire pelvis shifts her weight around. Her hands/arms remind me very much of Dina/Randa and not much of Samia/Tahia/Fifi/Soheir.

Also, she seems to dance with very straight legs and swings the weight of her hips around quite a bit, which is a feeling I associate with the modern dancers. I mean as opposed to the small, rolling movements Tahia and Soheir might have used, for instance.

Of course, it could just be that the tight, unbeaded lycra dress makes anything she does look more like Dina than Soheir. I'm kind of serious, costuming definitely affects my perception of the underlying movement...

When I was performing in Cairo(1981-1990) I always did a drum solo..not as the ending of the show but as a prequel to the ending.
The first time I danced I stood near the drummer facing him as was customary when I had danced in the U.S.
I was told afterward that this was not correct but to face your audience.
I was also told that when it came to the drum solo that my drummer would follow my lead with my hips.

My understanding of the naming of the era's of dance is that Golden Age was like Samia Gama, Tahia Carioca, etc. Classical started in the mid 60's with Soheir, Nagwa, Fifi etc. and followed into the late 80's when the music started to change and thus the dancers changed the style with more modern influence. I.E. Dina.

I will have to say, that IMO Nagwa, in the later 80's changed her style somewhat with the big stage productions in the hotels, and her style added more ballet and modern posturing in the taste of Mahmoud Reda, who was VERY popular at the time.

Modern style started emerging in the 1990's with changes in the costumes and music becoming much more stylized. Shaabi has been around for quite awhile, but was always considered "of the lower classes". It is now usually a part of many dancers repertoire when performing in Cairo, to give a total look to the various "styles" of Egyptian Dance.

Leyla Amir
Dancers Dream Tours to Egypt

Here is a modern yet Egyptian classic:

MySpace Video - *New Jersey Belly Dance Star Soraya's Video Channel & Video Clips

Hi,
I'm a newbie over from tribe. I hope you ladies forgive I haven't done a profile yet. Here this is to support Lauren's comparison between Mona and Dina, here's a clip that made me see the resemblance so strongly [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaf26Q24yk]YouTube - Mona Said dancing in a film منى السعيد[/ame]

Wow, I'll say!

I love that she is dancing in a mini and you can see her legs and feet throughout. *studies*

During my shower I mused more about the resemblance of Mona and Dina, and here's what I think after having massaged my damp head with a big towel: they both bear a certain "street" flavour. If you see f.e. Suheir as an innocently sensual dancer and Fifi as "her ladyship" on stage, Mona and Dina have this sexy thing of the uninhibited woman that has her erotical power going and flowing regardless of social convention, the "Carmen" gypsy girl - natural but fatal. Dina is more the Lolita type, especially when she was younger and wearing the mini dresses ("oh I just can't help being what I am and doing what I do..." her smile seems to say while she does that biiiig hipcircle) while Mona especially in that film clip in the red dress reminds me very much of Marlene Dietrich in her countless roles of a nightclub singer - just her cheeky way of chewing her gum and her broad smile without the remotest shyness. Like Marlene she plays the woman who knows she doesn't belong to "respectable society" but enjoys that it makes her free to use all her female power.

Yes, they're both just as sexy as.

One thing I really like about Dina is her seeming unselfconsciousness. She's far too old and developed to be a Lolita - and indeed, Lolita is supposed to *be* deliberately sexual, albeit in a completely naive way - but sometimes when she dances it's like she totally forgets that she has an adult female body and adult female experiences and she just looks like a happy six year old loving the music.

I always think of Marlene Dietrich as too drag-queeny to really see the comparison you've made, Nouria - her femininity is very obviously pastede on yay, which is part of her allure. Maybe Rita Hayworth or Ava Gardner?

GREAT clip!

I still wonder how much of my perceived similarity is because of the way the moves look in a tight, unadorned skirt. Would Tahia's technique look similar, too, if she were dressed that way? I wonder....

Part of it is that neither Mona nor Dina is the least bit shy about going 'Heeeeere's my butt! Look at it! Loot at it!'

I don't recall seeing so much of that with the previous generations of dancers.

Dammit, we need to be able to travel back in time and make Tahia put on a tight mini and find out!

Wouldn't that be awesome? "Naima Akef! Can you please put on these leggings and dance so I can see exactly what your legs and feet are doing?"

anyone know an approximate date for that Mona clip? I've got a video of Beata dancing to that exact same song, and it's pretty recent. And of course "Didi" is on there, and that's not too old of a song.

LOVED it!

Mona & Dina and their backsides - just can't get enough. :)

I think there's a similarity between the two that would not be found with Tahia, personally.

I don't know if I would have drawn the connection myself, but I *do* see it now.

Hi Zumarrad, yes of course Mona is a different type from Marlene (yet I think that Marlene is really classy). It's just the way Mona acts during that film with the red dress scene. She is so cheeky, like a streetgirl, the way she goes about puffing her cigarette, blowing a kiss to the nightclub owner, chewing a gum. Marlene, when playing in "Morocco" f.e., she does it in a very different way but she also knows that once she is just a nightclub singer she might as well act as she pleases, so she provokes people and follows her instincts and that makes her the strong one and the winner of the situation. And that reminds me of Mona, she doesn't care about what people think of her and if they treat her like a queen (like I bet Fifi would really mind), she just IS + very good at it.

Dina-Lolita - the innocent thing, Zumarrad: when I see the young, very cute Dina and how she gets away with wearing the shortest tightest dresses...I mean she gets away with it because it just so suits her and it looks right in a way, and she is so sweet and coquettish and sexy and NOT vulgar at all, yes there is that woman-child thing you also name. And because of her age it is more difficult now and she gets more bashing because the childish thing about her matches her appearance less but even though it's still there, it's her character. Just of course some costumes have discredited her because it looks like she's trying too hard, whatever is behind that...
But I'll shut up now I don't want to hijack the subject, I just read the whole thread, it's so interesting so I continued where my thoughts set off - just obsessing,r:;

Re: drum solos--the "typical" full routine, over 30 yrs ago, was 1) fast, flirty but shy entrance, 2) slow veil, 3) short fast lively, freer than entrance, 4) very dramatic slow floor (usually a tcheftetelli), 5) a drum solo, 6) a lively finale. At least this was true on the west coast, and was directly from native ME dancers. But as in anything else, this was one aspect, but broadly taught at the time. So NO, drum solos are nothing new.

IMO, modern is as modern does. Everything that is now classical was modern in its day, and just as we see kids today doing things that are new and explorative, but built on what was previously done, so will BD continue to evolve. As the ME is exposed more and more to the rest of the world, it will change even more quickly, especially for younger women who simply will not accept artificial, male-imposed constraints that simply do not make sense today. And evolution of BD is fine, as long as the core, fundamentals, and essence that make BD what it is, are not lost.

Some of the best stuff being done today was absolutely frowned upon years ago in the high-end (think Cairo) of ME dance scene. They were authentic ME moves but were considered too coarse, vulgar, unrefined or backward. A couple of examples--chest drops/chest circles, etc., and floor work , if you can believe that! (and floor work is still debatable among some). Back then, there was always news of some dancer actually getting arrested for what she did in a public performance. Some of it was a refusal of being held back, and some of it was to get/keep their name current. Even so, NO ONE would have been caught dead doing ANY kind of butt-waggling. (especially the excessive stuff popular now, and I find it in the vulgar category.)

I loved the Mona clip, but I just find dancing in anything too revealing simply detracts from the real beauty of movement and just makes it too sexual and too raw, and lacking the mystique that makes dance so beautiful to me. Yup, I'm gettin' old! But in my defense, I have seen several instances when Arabs have gotten up and walked out on that kind of stuff, or said things about the dancers that can't be repeated here.

In all, no offense to anyone! I do love this website!!!!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I love Nanda's explanation, mainly because it gives my beloved Mona a pivotal position as an innovator rather than leaving her standing in the cold between eras as most breakdowns seem to!

!

I AGREE.

To me also, Mona is much more important than the role generally attributed to her today.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWGECU-7C9M]YouTube - Bellydance in the Egyptian film - Mona Said منى السعيد[/ame]

THis video is not only fun, it clearly influenced Dina's style so much.
The uploader noted "young Dina must have watched this movie hundreds of times". And not for nothing: see the similarity with some of Dina's later key movements??

Mona el Said clearly is one dancer who stood at the crossroads.
Sadly she's not given that much credit for her clear influences.

Else I love this thread :)

That red-dress Mona clip just turned me into a huge fan.