Thread: Classical Egyptian vs Modern Egyptian

I am trying to note the differences between Classical Egyptian Style and Modern Egyptian style.

What are some of the characteristics of each?


What are some trade mark moves for each?


What are considered the "Classical Egyptian" years?


What are good examples of "Modern Egyptian" music?


Any tidbits of information would be great! Thanks!


Chandani
www.chandani.net

hi Chandani:

To my knowledge, those two terms don't have any set meaning. In fact, they are sometimes used interchangeably or in a way that overlaps partially.

Classical Egyptian *might* be used to denote Golden Era dancers like Samia Gamal, Tahiya Cariokia, etc.

"Modern Egyptian" could be used to describe Dina and her contemporaries, as vs. Samia Gamal and her contemporaries, but then its not clear where Fifi, Sohair, Mona etc. would fit. I have also seen Modern Egyptian used to refer to everything from Badia Masabni in the 1920's through present, e.g. Egyptian "raqs sharqi" in the sense we know it is Modern Egyptian dance, as vs. folkloric or shaabi.

Sedonia

yay i break it down that way. samia, fifi ; classic. anybody trained by ragia hassan; modern. i've heard of some people calling what is done "over there" classic & here modern. then i think uuh reda i believe (ona da old guys) said in an interview classic was folk & modern was oriental. are you confused yet!! real slippery term. tina

You will get lots of different opinions on this :) For myself, I generally break it into:

* Folkloric Egyptian - (ghawazee, saiidi, reda troupe, etc.)
* Classical Egyptian - (Soheir, Nagwa, Fifi, etc.)
* Modern Egyptian - (Lucy, Randa, Dandesh, etc.)
* Modern Cairo - (Dina, Raqia, etc.)

Now these dancers aren't all the same, but they have the same types of feeling and emphasis to me.

Originally Posted by mahsati

You will get lots of different opinions on this :) For myself, I generally break it into:

* Folkloric Egyptian - (ghawazee, saiidi, reda troupe, etc.)
* Classical Egyptian - (Soheir, Nagwa, Fifi, etc.)
* Modern Egyptian - (Lucy, Randa, Dandesh, etc.)
* Modern Cairo - (Dina, Raqia, etc.)

Now these dancers aren't all the same, but they have the same types of feeling and emphasis to me.

Where would Golden Age of Cinema (Samia, Tahiyya et al) fit into this? Or would it be an additional category?

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

Where would Golden Age of Cinema (Samia, Tahiyya et al) fit into this? Or would it be an additional category?

Yep - I knew something was left out when I was writing that before :)

Golden Age goes right before Classical Egyptian and i think has more in common with Classical Egyptian than Modern Egyptian. (Still just my opinion, but it is how the differences feel to me :))

Yes, Id give Golden a category, too!

Originally Posted by mahsati

You will get lots of different opinions on this :) For myself, I generally break it into:

*Golden Era Egyptian- (Samia, Tahaia, Naima)
* Folkloric Egyptian - (ghawazee, saiidi, reda troupe, etc.)
* Classical Egyptian - (Soheir, Nagwa, Fifi, etc.)
* Modern Egyptian - (Lucy, Randa, Dandesh, etc.)
* Modern Cairo - (Dina, Raqia, etc.)

Now these dancers aren't all the same, but they have the same types of feeling and emphasis to me.

Modern Egyptian - (Lucy, Randa, Dandesh, etc.)
* Modern Cairo - (Dina, Raqia, etc.)

I would never have thought to seperate these two. Hmmmm. Ponders.

agreed. golden age is more like today. modern cairo sums up what i like neatly cause that's hassan. tina

Thanks for all of the feedback.

I think we have established "who" falls into what era, but my question is why?

What are some defining characteristics, movements, facial expressions, arm work, foot work, costuming etc that makes a dancer perform from each of the different eras?

For instance most people agree that Classical Egyptian style is more fluid and less isolated. Whereas Modern Egyptian has more focus on isolated movements but still keeping the emotion of the dance especially in the facial expressions.


In general most of the characteristics are classified as Egyptian style.

We could just say that Samia is Classical and Dina is Modern because of the years that they are dancing. However, they do not look the same.

I guess I am trying to find the evolution of the dance in Egypt. For instance the Hustle and the Electric Slide are both similar line dances but from different eras. When you watch them performed you can see the similarities and the differences as well - not to mention the music.

Nagwa has a characteristic bust shimmy and Dina has a hip circle with the hip twist to the back as a signature move.
Any other examples?

When did we move into the Modern Egyptian Era and into the Modern Cairo era?

I know - a lot of details. I just want to be the best belly dance I can be.

Joyfully,
Chandani

I thought that classical was more ballet inspired, could involve larger movements (arms, and step pattern), could (but not always) involve floaty chiffon skirts.

and that modern egyptian was more contained, smaller more intricate movements, that necessitates wearing a more streamlined costume so that you can see it all.

I could be completely wrong here, but one of the characteristics I sense in modern Egyptian is a much straighter leg.

Don't forget the role that music plays in all this. How the music evolves over time plays a big role in how the dance evolves. When you look at the Golden Era and Tahia and Samia, typically you had smaller piece bands and the music was typically was simpler and at a slower tempo.

In the 80's, you had the birth of the classical musicals like Sit El Hossan, Nagwa, Ma'shaal. Much of the great music we dance to now came from this era. These required full orchestras. Obviously the sound and depth of the music will require more interpretation.

Also around the same time but especially in the 90's, drum machines and synthesizers became very popular and started finding it's way into ME music. The music became faster but the rhythms became less complex. The difference is obvious when you listen to singers like Farid al Atrache vs. Hakim.

Obviously as the base of all dance is the music, the dancer must adapt to follow the music.

Here's an interesting article on the evolution of music:

http://www.touregypt.net/music.htm

Also I find the comments on this CD educational:

http://www.amazon.ca/o/ASIN/B000003Q...QW4TQHRG7C8C02

Here's another cool article about how each of the Golden Era dancers influenced belly dance. You need to click on each link separately. Especially read the info on Badia.
http://www.belly-dance.org/

modern is very ballet & jazz influenced. tina

Nothing to add here except - GREAT thread! keep it goin!

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I could be completely wrong here, but one of the characteristics I sense in modern Egyptian is a much straighter leg.

That's something I've noticed too, Zum. I don't think you're wrong.

I agree on the straighter leg.

I also think that we might need a category for chaabi, which is not exactly the same as Modern Egyptian/Modern Cairo.

I wouldn't have thought to separate these two either. Its sort of hard to separate Egypt from Cairo because Cairo is the capitol of Egypt; Cairo is the center of belly dance in Egypt; any dancer who wants to make a name for herself will go to Cairo to dance. Many of the latest costuming trends and dance trends come out of Cairo, naturally, because all the dancers are there; the designers are there; the clubs are there...

The only way I can think of separating the two would be to justify it by saying that the Cairo style is mainly glitzy and cabaret. Even when they do folkloric, its still glitzy because their costumes tend to be glitzy and tight fitting and they incorporate oriental into their folkloric.

Whereas in the rest of Egypt, when they do folkloric, its really folkloric, very earthy, and heavy and truly toned-down costuming.

??? maybe ???

On a cultural side note: Egyptians do separate Cairo from Egypt. But this is just Egyptian people, not dancers. For example when an Egyptian is in a city other than Cairo, such as Alexandria, Sharm El Sheikh, Luxor, Aswan, etc... instead of saying that they are going back to Cairo, they say they are going back to Egypt! Obviously these cities are still geographically in Egypt, but they consider the "real" Egypt to be Cairo and not anywhere else. So for example my aunt who lives in Cairo who wants to visit her daughter in Alexandria will say she is leaving Egypt to go to Alexandria and will be back in Egypt in a few days! Its weird, but that's how they perceive it.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I would never have thought to seperate these two. Hmmmm. Ponders.

I would have thought to separate "modern Egyptian" from "classical Egyptian" via the music, not the costumes or dancers or anything else.

For example, when we think of "Classical Egyptian" we think of deceased artists, such as Mohamed Abdel Wahab; Oum Kalthsoum; Farid Al Atrache; Adel Halm Hafez, etc....

When I think of "modern Egyptian" I think of Amr Diab, Hakim, pretty much any musician that is currently living. I think of pop/shaabi as being modern.

Then there is "Folkloric Egyptian" such as cane, stick, melaya, shamadan, nubian, cymbals. You could conceivable lump folkloric as a sub-catagory of classical since its just as old, if not actually older.

But in a sense it really doesn't matter. You can define it any way you want, because these are just labels.

Great topic!

I think modern Egyptian dance has more tighter smaller moves, straighter leg. Alot of control. I can see alot of ballet influence.

IMHO I'd say Dina started off the trend and it went from there. In the begining her style was somewhat different and slowly it changed.

And ChristinaRizkallah made a great point about the music. Although OmKalthoum, farid,Halim have transended through the times. Only now, the music has a much cleaner sound.

The golden era had some ballet influence but the moves wernt so tight.

My personal preference would be for the classic era with Suhair, fifi. The moves seem more bouncy and joyful.

Forgive me but I'm going to cut and paste a portion of a post I made on this subject on old bhuz to start:

Modern vs classical

Dina was the first of a very new style and I agree that she did "get the ball rolling" for modern Cairo style because everyone that came after her were, to a certain extent, just copies... see earlier Randa and Soraya, you could barely tell the difference between them and Dina sometimes. There is much more depth and variety in dancer's styles currently.

Though the change into modern Egyptian I felt started a little further back, say around a young Mona Said. The gulf era dancers seemed to stick to a certain formula, and while Nagwa was very theatrical, Mona seemed to be altering some of the core movement principles from classical to a more modern feel and then a young Lucy was quite modern and more direct in her musical interpretation and that straight leg shimmy was fabulous!

On a past thread discussing this Mihrbanu bint Ghazalla defined Soheir, Nagwa and Fifi as the Golden Age of Egyptian Dance (not to be confused with the golden age of Egyptian cinema) and I agree, I feel that they really set a certain standard and that in itself makes them 'classic' or classical style by definition. Fifi and Soheir especially were undiluted by fakeloric training and are really fine examples of the quintessential Egyptian dancer...

...Ok, but that still doesn't really explore Why some dancers are "modern" or "classical" or "Golden Era" or whatever term we choose to use to define and catagorize in a way that suits our current perception of the dance.

Lets start with the Badia's Casino Opera, not the only opera house operating at the time but it does seem to be the most infamous and one where all the huge stars of the Egyptian silver screen got their break. Badia, according to Dr Mo (who is currently working on a history of Raqs Sharqi...Yay!), was the one to popularize or even 'invent' the term Raqs Sharqi to differentiate what she was offering at her establishment from the western dances of the time done by the high society Europeans. Before that, "Raqs Sharqi" didn't exist.

And, at the casino opera there was more influence of western dances such as the various ballroom type dances etc than there was ballet as to appeal to the sensibilities of those same high society Europeans/Westerners. I think that even rocky on a recent MEDlist post stated that the specific use of space, the turns and arms of that 'Golden Era/Cinema Era' were as a result of Ballroom dance technique and Not ballet influence.

Prior to that there was Baladi, Ghawazee, Awalim (the meaning and role of which was changing during this period... and in modern day in considered an insult), various folk dances and ,well, you can read about all that in 'A trade like any other'.

So, music was experiencing an evolution with people like Abdul Wahad introducing western instruments directly into his compositions... the sort of compositions that Oum Kolsoum refused to touch until very late in her career. When she did deign to notice and use these new and modern poets and composers we ended up with most of our danceable OK classics and this change in Her signaled a change in what dancers were dancing to... the reason no-one before Soheir had danced to an OK song is that previously they frankly weren't all that suitable for raqs sharqi.

And onwards because I'm gas bagging now... (sometimes I just wish during these types of threads we could all be sitting around having coffee and bouncing ideas of one another)

Three main factors that are relatively new and would have definitely affected what was to become 'Modern Egyptian' are:
1. The establishment of Folkloric (fakeloric) troupes and their subsequent influence in modern day Raqs Sharqi
2. The emergence of Shaabi music and thus dancing to go with
3. The development of an Egyptian routine... The majency and long drum solos etc.

Wow NandaDncr! That was an outstanding summary. Your point about Um Kulthum's music is something I'd never considered before; great food for thought, and I think very relevant to understanding the emergence of "Modern" Egyptian dance. What would be a prime example of a typical pre-Abdel Wahab Um Kulthum piece? I'd like to learn more about the evolution of her style. I haven't watched "A Voice Like Egypt" yet, but it's on my to-do list!

Nisaa

Thanks for all of the replies. This thread has been very helpful.


So when was the Egyptian Routine established? (And who created it?)

Am I correct in saying this routine is considered Modern Egyptian?


The onset of the drum solo was brought up as well. I've been trying for a while to find out the origin of the drum solo. I've heard many different versions. Does anyone here know the origin and evolution of the drum solo?

Thanks!

I don't know but am curious as well. What I have heard is that the drum solo as a feature and big ending is an entirely American thing and that it's used to be incorporated into an Egyptian's routine, if done at all....is that true?

i tend to agree only cause it never seemed to be the ending of any egyptian performance i've seen on video. i think it may be more a need to have a "period" on your routine. after all in most settings the bder doesn't have a stage really and is trying to create something outa nothing. i think even the GP gets that the bder is done after a drum solo. american egyptian bders also mimic folk dances rather than do them fully cause they have 10 minutes to perform & not the luxury of a costume change but now the mimics are taught. i think it boils down to culturally compromising. trying to be egyptian style but in the american setting. tina

Originally Posted by danidance

I don't know but am curious as well. What I have heard is that the drum solo as a feature and big ending is an entirely American thing and that it's used to be incorporated into an Egyptian's routine, if done at all....is that true?

I had a lengthy conversation once with Sahra Kent about how shows are structured in Egypt - she said early on she ended her shows with a drum solo and other dancers in town referred to the drum solo finale as "Sahra's thing" - it was that atypical.
Christine

I love Nanda's explanation, mainly because it gives my beloved Mona a pivotal position as an innovator rather than leaving her standing in the cold between eras as most breakdowns seem to!

So, can we begin cataloging movements specific to each style? And perhaps other identifying elements, like costuming, entrances, etc? I'm no expert, but these are my preliminary observations, just to start discussion. **PLEASE correct me where I'm wrong!!! And don't go about quoting me on any of this, I'm pulling it out of my a$$**

The quick elevator drop seems recent, is that primarily in the 'post-Dina' modern Cairo style? What about the turns with weight in the heels? Ribcage drops? Tiny traveling steps? Of course, the big butt-focused hip circle... Costuming becoming more minimalist, and more minimal, with short skirts, cutouts, less fringe and decoration.

Modern Egyptian - I'm still confused about this style. Is this Reda-based? And the Cairo style above is an offshoot under Raqia Hassan's umbrella? If so, then it's ballroom-ish swooping and turning, lots of Umm K. emoting, interspersed with very tiny, controlled shimmies and a few traditional BD articulations tossed in for good measure. (tongue firmly in cheek here)

Golden Cinema era -- is that mostly where we see the ballroom-style turns, swaying torsos, graceful traveling steps? I'm finding it hard to generalize further because the styles seem so different to me among the dancers of the era --

Golden Age (Fifi, Soheir, Nagwa, Nadia Gamal would go here?) -- A return to a more baladi style? Somewhat less ballroom/Ballet/Western influence? Maybe not Nagwa...Long, full skirts that might show plenty of leg. Loads of fringe a must. Varieties of shimmies, layering. Bold, strong personalities. "Tricks" like backbends, splits -- spins are more 'tricksy,' too, less graceful. Focus on torso articulations (shoulders, hips) rather than

OK, help me out... I've already veered far away from movement vocabulary.

This is HARD!!

I could be mistaken, but my understanding was that drum solos were predominantly american in invention. Now, if you go to Egypt, you will see a lot of the dancers in Egypt (both foreigners and Egyptian) incorporating drum solos into their routines. I think they are doing it partly to appease the Americans/foreigners in the audience and they are also appropriating an American dance into their dance.

Here are some of the responses that I have received about the music part of drum solos.

On Hossam Ramzy's website he includes members of Nagwa's band (http://www.hossamramzy.com/stars/starsofegypt_nagwa.htm)

"In her band, Nagwa Fouad had Ahmed Hammouda, Mahmoud Hammouda's brother on Tabla, the master of all dance style drummers and he first man to ever play a "Live or Recorded Tabla Solo" in the history of dance music and performance. He incorporated many Egyptian folkloric elements such as the Haggala and the Oasis style Bedouin rhythms into that Tabla Solo that are still heard today on many dance CDs and which many drummers still copy as their standard Tabla Solo. Ahmed Hammouda also incorporated various style of rolls on the "Taks" that would be played either on the "Maqsoum Rhythm" on the counts of 1 & 2 then followed by stops of a "Dom" on the count of 3 and a "Slap" on the count of 4 that have become the "Tabla Solo Classics" of all time. "

I've also heard that Nagwa Fouad was the first to do a drum solo. Something happened to her music during her show, so she just kept dancing along with the drummer playing. It brought the house down and the drum solo was born.


Lastly I've heard that the drum solo just sort of evolved kind of like other taxims - violin, accordin, oud, etc. It was just natural that the tabla should have a solo as well.


That's interesting what Sahra said about it being a "Sahra thing".
Would Sahra be considered Modern Egyptian?

So when was the Egyptian routine born?