Thread: Linnyg's Baby Belly Question of the Week 9/18

So I have read and listened to all sorts of discussions over what we call ourselves. OD, ME Dancer, Belly Dancer.......now, I had some one ask me the difference between all of these. I know that there is a difference between Cabaret / Tribal(and all that it includes), between Egyptian/Turkish/Lebanese. But what is the difference between all of the more general terms? I am not big on labels as I know that there is a problem with defining some of these terms and they can mean slightly different things to different people but IN GENERAL what are the differences? Thank you ladies!

You mean the difference between Oriental dancer, Middle Eastern dancer, or belly dancer? Or are you referring to something else?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

You mean the difference between Oriental dancer, Middle Eastern dancer, or belly dancer? Or are you referring to something else?

I think that's the question, and my answer would be they mean mostly the same thing in general usage. It's an individual dancers' preference what she calls herself.

You can make a case that a Middle Eastern Dancer *should* be versed in other middle eastern forms besides Oriental (and I know we had a whole thread on that once), but I wouldn't necessarily assume that's the case.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

You mean the difference between Oriental dancer, Middle Eastern dancer, or belly dancer? Or are you referring to something else?

Yes.

So would Oriental be under the umbrella of Middle Eastern? And where would Indian forms fall under or are they a catagory of their own. I know Bollywood is its own creature.

Linnyg - I love your question!

I would say Oriental is meant to mean eastern when used generally, but it also has a more narrow definition within Middle Eastern dance in that Oriental implies a specific style that is non-folkloric. Middle Eastern dances would include any dances of the (Near and?) Middle East.

Belly dance has come to be the umbrella term under which a lot of dance falls, from folkloric dance to classic oriental to Americanized fantasy to burleque-with-belly-influence and beyond. But, it is also the most recognizable term for the dance form (even in the Middle East).

Indian would be completely separate.

Yes, Oriental is one Middle Eastern dance, but there are many, so I'd agree it falls under that umbrella. (edited cuz Nasila's right -- the word Oriental can just mean 'not Western' so it could be used interchangeably with 'middle eastern' in that context, though we usually use it as a synonym for Sharki. Confusing!!)

To me, Middle Eastern would include Oriental (aka Raks Sharki if it's Egyptian, Oryental if it's Turksh), beledi, Saidi, Khaleegy, debke, hagallah, perhaps Roman Havasi, and other Middle Eastern dance forms.

Still, the short answer is that all the examples you gave are used interchangeably as alternatives for 'belly dancer' and usually mean the same thing in that context.

Originally Posted by Linnyg

So would Oriental be under the umbrella of Middle Eastern? And where would Indian forms fall under or are they a catagory of their own. I know Bollywood is its own creature.

It's Oriental aka Orientale, and the idea is that back in Victorian (and previous) times, the term "oriental" was used for anything from the Middle East/Turkey/Central Asia. It's a different, older use of the term than how it's used today (to refer to Chinese, Thai, etc).

I think they used Oriental to refer to Asian stuff too. It was all just as Eastern and exotic to the "civilized" West..w.:

Edit: wow, everyone else said it better and more completely! I love Bhuz!

OTOH, those of us who trained with Ibrahim Farrah normally think of oriental dance as something very elegant and fancy, for the stage, as opposed to the average nightclub or restaurant show. (Yes, I know they can be elegant etc too -- just explaining the terminology.) This would be a style like Fahtiem's.

"Oriental dance" is a subset of "Middle Eastern dance". Middle Eastern dance can include not only belly dancing, but also Lebanese debke (which is a line dance), raqs al nasha'at (the Khaleegy dance that uses the full thobe), etc.

The term Oriental dance arose in the 20th century as a term for what we call belly dance. In the nightclubs of Egypt, the majority of the audience was people with Western tastes. Many were actual Westerners (French & British government employees, businessmen, etc.) and others were fatcat Egyptians (royalty, pashas, etc.) who embraced all things West and rejected their own culture. So night clubs had floor shows resembling those of the great music halls of Europe. (Think in terms of Moulin Rouge, Folies Bergere - think in terms of French cancan, Ziegfeld follies, etc.) When Badia Masabni put belly dancing on the stage of her nightclub, she called it raqs sharqi ("dance of the East", or "Oriental dance") to differentiate it from the Western dance styles people were accustomed to seeing in that environment.

Not all Egyptians use the term raqs sharqi ("Oriental dance) to refer to belly dancing. Some, such as Mahmoud Reda, prefer to say raqs baladi (roughly, traditional dance like what they do in the villages).

A bit like an eel - very slippery. When this came up some time ago I sat down and tried to tease out the threads of meaning. I gathered a number of definitions together on my site - Terms for Describing "Our Dance". I'm not saying it is complete but it gives a flavour. ..g.:

Originally Posted by kashmir

A bit like an eel - very slippery. When this came up some time ago I sat down and tried to tease out the threads of meaning. I gathered a number of definitions together on my site - Terms for Describing "Our Dance". I'm not saying it is complete but it gives a flavour. ..g.:

Wow, that is some list. It must have taken a while to sort all that out!

Thanks for all the input. Anyone else have an opinion?