Thread: Zhagareet - when and how?

Last night I was watching a friend dance, and did a zhagareet for a great move she did. Then of course some guy wanted to copy and tried it, sounding more like Speedy Gonzales than anything. I explained how I do mine (using the tongue at the front of the mouth, rather than the back of the throat) and some girl jumped in to tell me I was doing it wrong. Furthermore, when my husband informed this guy that it's actually something women do, this gal told my husband he was wrong without giving any indication of how/where she's been given information about it.

So here's what I'd like to know: what is the "proper" use of a zhagareet. I've roomed with an Arab, had Arab/Persian boyfriends, and researched online. Here's what I've learned from these sources:

It's something women do
It's used when men go off to war or for long journeys
It's used in times of great celebration, such as weddings or when a child receives high marks in school
Different regions of the Middle East do it differently (ie. the Tunisian roommate said it's slower in Tunisia than in Egypt)
It's not used for dance (except by us crazy dancers ..g.:)
It's a tongue shimmy versus a back-of-the-throat vibrato

Is this accurate?

Maliam, your research has been excellent. Yes, the points you listed are accurate!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Maliam, your research has been excellent. Yes, the points you listed are accurate!

Thank you! Just want to make sure I know what I'm talking about before instructing someone else ,r:;

Hi Malia,

I just had to reply to this thread. You are correct. Zaghareet are done by women as a celebratory exclamation. Weddings, graduations, births, good shoe sales, are all good reasons to let loose a zaghroota. In Egypt, we do them almost like a tongue vibration. Other Arabic countries do them differently. In Morocco, for instance, there is no tongue and the sound is almost a high pitched aye aye sound. My Sudanese friend they pucker the lips and place their forefinger and thumb in front of their mouth and do it.

It's definitely, not something that men should ever do. Traditionally belly dancers shouldn't do zaghareet on stage. It's definitely ok, even encouraged, to do it at shows and in support of the belly dancer on stage. Also when performing the Zaffa dance it's done by everyone, even those on stage.

I hope this info helps. It was great seeing you at Tito's workshop. I put up your new pics. The amber dress has gotten comments from many people. I still really like the yellow dress. Hope to see you soon.

Originally Posted by princessisabella

Hi Malia,

I just had to reply to this thread. You are correct. Zaghareet are done by women as a celebratory exclamation. Weddings, graduations, births, good shoe sales, are all good reasons to let loose a zaghroota. In Egypt, we do them almost like a tongue vibration. Other Arabic countries do them differently. In Morocco, for instance, there is no tongue and the sound is almost a high pitched aye aye sound. My Sudanese friend they pucker the lips and place their forefinger and thumb in front of their mouth and do it.

It's definitely, not something that men should ever do. Traditionally belly dancers shouldn't do zaghareet on stage. It's definitely ok, even encouraged, to do it at shows and in support of the belly dancer on stage. Also when performing the Zaffa dance it's done by everyone, even those on stage.

I hope this info helps. It was great seeing you at Tito's workshop. I put up your new pics. The amber dress has gotten comments from many people. I still really like the yellow dress. Hope to see you soon.

Thank you for the great information! Also, when you say in Egypt they use more of a tongue vibration, is it similar to when we roll R's in Spanish? I remember someone telling me that, but am not sure if it's true. I've also heard in Egypt the tongue sways side to side rather than up and down.

And are you talking about the biz card? I'll have to come down to see you soon! I'll bring little Alexandria too :D

When I lived in Saudi I was told (by Saudis) it was used only at weddings.

I've definitely heard it used in Africa for weddings as well.

Originally Posted by maliam

I've also heard in Egypt the tongue sways side to side rather than up and down.

I have seen Egyptians do it with the tongue wagging from side to side. I've tried to duplicate that, without success! I don't recall them doing a trill like a Spanish R, but then I've only been to three weddings in Egypt so that's not exactly a comprehensive view.

In the movie Khally Balak Men Zouzou, the family zaghareet when Zouzou comes home from college to excitedly announce that she won some races in a track meet and helped her school win the cup. This would seem to be evidence that in Egypt, at least, a zagharoot can be used for happy occasions other than weddings.

I hate them, I cant do them, I just clap....

Originally Posted by princessisabella

It's definitely, not something that men should ever do.

I guess my Lebanese and Palestinian friends haven't been informed of this "rule".
Not many guys zaghareet, but I definitely know some who do. I've seen them do it during weddings, when the band is really kickin and when they're on the dance floor and just really happy.

I know Egyptian guys who zhagareet - no-one told them either. (And yes, that is Egyptian as in born and bred not first or second generation)

I was told Egyptians do it with a sideways tongue movement (which I find easiest), Turkish with an up and down movement. I think that was told to me by a (male) Turkish musician - but I could be wrong. I know he definitely said Turks didn't bother with the woosy holding your hand in front of your mouth thing.

Zaghareet are definitely a traditional female thing. I have never seen men perform zaghareet. I'm sure there are some who would do it; just like traditionally men didn't belly dance. Now there are many men who belly dance. I guess for every rule, there is an exception. I can only speak to my experience as a born and raised Egyptian( 1st generation too :) We'll use Zaghareet to celebrate just about any occasion. ..g.:

In Egypt it is traditonally a sideways movement. The Vibration is similar to the rolled R's in spanish. The sound does tend to be more high pitched. Me and my cousins used to compete to see who can hold the 'note' the longest.

Malia: Yea! I mean the Biz Cards. didn't want to put my name here, but I think you know who I am now I cannot wait to meet little Alexandria. People keep asking me about your Amber Bedlah.

Moroccans do a "typical" zaghrout with the tongue, in addition to the "yoy", "yay", etc. sounds. I think it just depends on where the zaghroutista is from, or other factors.

Originally Posted by kamilia

Moroccans do a "typical" zaghrout with the tongue, in addition to the "yoy", "yay", etc. sounds. I think it just depends on where the zaghroutista is from, or other factors.

A new Bhuz word. Love it! ..l;,

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I have seen Egyptians do it with the tongue wagging from side to side. I've tried to duplicate that, without success! I don't recall them doing a trill like a Spanish R, but then I've only been to three weddings in Egypt so that's not exactly a comprehensive view.

In the movie Khally Balak Men Zouzou, the family zaghareet when Zouzou comes home from college to excitedly announce that she won some races in a track meet and helped her school win the cup. This would seem to be evidence that in Egypt, at least, a zagharoot can be used for happy occasions other than weddings.

(Hi Shira) In Egypt it's used at any happy celebration of a life changing or otherwise important occasion. It is also used in mourning. I have seen women mourning at a grave just outside of Cairo and part of the mourning was zaghareeting.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

I guess my Lebanese and Palestinian friends haven't been informed of this "rule".
Not many guys zaghareet, but I definitely know some who do. I've seen them do it during weddings, when the band is really kickin and when they're on the dance floor and just really happy.

True! I've witnessed many times Lebanese and Palestinian men doing it in the same situations.

Well Im Lebanese and I also grew up around people from around the Middle East.

Ive seen both men and women zaghareet.

Ive seen it used for many happy occasions including for a dancer.

I was under the impression that men bellydancing was not a new thing.

Originally Posted by bintbeled

A new Bhuz word. Love it! ..l;,

I am honoured.

Men dancing? That's not new. Men belly dancing in the hip centric, traditionally feminine way, that's new. Most Arabic men have such a fear/dislike of appearing feminine that belly dancing has only recently become accepted. It's still somewhat taboo with the older generation.

To wit, when I was telling my cousin about a male dancer I'd been to see, he was less than approving. I remember watching David do a performance on the Showtime DVD with a friend, who is a known belly dance drummer, not too long ago. He could/would not sit through it. He is Jordanian and
is around dancers all the time, but he could not deal.

As I said, I'm sure someone here will have a story about a male Arabic friend who is ok with male BD'rs. I can only speak to what I've experienced.

I guess we're totally off topic now.

The term 5awal formerly described male dancers in pre-revolutionary Egypt, but is now used as an insult to describe an effeminate man. Here is a cool article: Bloomberg.com: Exclusive

I bet Egypt's male dancers have always been zaghroutistas, too

Men dancing? That's not new. Men belly dancing in the hip centric, traditionally feminine way, that's new. Most Arabic men have such a fear/dislike of appearing feminine that belly dancing has only recently become accepted. It's still somewhat taboo with the older generation.

Quite a lot of male scholars, most notably Anthony Shay and Stavros Karayanni, would disagree with you on that one. From their perspective it's only colonialism that led to distaste for men belly dancing. 150 years ago it was no big deal.

Originally Posted by princessisabella

Zaghareet are definitely a traditional female thing. I have never seen men perform zaghareet. I'm sure there are some who would do it; just like traditionally men didn't belly dance. Now there are many men who belly dance. I guess for every rule, there is an exception. I can only speak to my experience as a born and raised Egyptian( 1st generation too :) We'll use Zaghareet to celebrate just about any occasion. ..g.:

In Egypt it is traditonally a sideways movement. The Vibration is similar to the rolled R's in spanish. The sound does tend to be more high pitched. Me and my cousins used to compete to see who can hold the 'note' the longest.

Malia: Yea! I mean the Biz Cards. didn't want to put my name here, but I think you know who I am now I cannot wait to meet little Alexandria. People keep asking me about your Amber Bedlah.

Thank you! I'll see if I can swing down there this week. I have to stop in Queen Anne to pick up a repaired necklace, so I can make my way downtown too.

That Bedlah was made by Anastasiya, Nalini's mom. Isn't it gorgeous! I've got an order in right now for a new costume; I can't wait! ..g.:

Nalini's Mom made it? It's gorgeous! Andrea was with me the other day. She said Nalini is doing another video for Mher. Did you see her 1st video for them? Nalini said they didn't want her smiling and she said "but I'm always smiling when I dance."..g.: Nalini's so funny.

Okay, here's a sideways question:

Is a zagharoot the same as a ululation?

Is a zagharoot a subset of different sounds, all of which might be called a ululation?

Originally Posted by princessisabella

Nalini's Mom made it? It's gorgeous! Andrea was with me the other day. She said Nalini is doing another video for Mher. Did you see her 1st video for them? Nalini said they didn't want her smiling and she said "but I'm always smiling when I dance."..g.: Nalini's so funny.

She is funny. I have another costume on custom order with her mom right now. I bought $100 worth of crystals for it! I can't wait to get it in my hands!!! ..g.:

When is her next vid shoot? I got the first video; I like her better when she's smiling. It's definitely her personality but she did well anyway.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Quite a lot of male scholars, most notably Anthony Shay and Stavros Karayanni, would disagree with you on that one. From their perspective it's only colonialism that led to distaste for men belly dancing. 150 years ago it was no big deal.

Even earlier. Magda Saleh had film from Egypt - so it must be reasonably recent - which showed ordinary (working class) men doing the same moves as ordinary women (that is not the professional stage execution which the women don't do either) - ie hips and shoulders. However, since the revolution much of this has been removed from consciousness as Egyptians reinvent their culture - hence the popularity of Reda styling.

The guys I knew were not "belly dancers" but would shake their hips with the best when moved by the music. (And no, they weren't gay either just fun loving sa`iidi lads)

HAH! hilarious thread.
In the villages in Turkey, the most common use is that the women do it when the guys go off to their military service. But in Istanbul, it's used like that by the lower classes but for most people it's kinda just a silly, ironic thing to do. Like a guy will do a wicked guitar solo and some guy in the audience will do it to be funny.

I do it to be cheeky when I dance. Once at a Lebanese restaurant the cook (who was Lebanese) told me not to do it cuz it wasn't sexy (I guess it has the same implications as Lebanon as it does in Turkey... it is something old village women do); however, as soon as he said that a Syrian guy in the audience told me nto to listen to the Lebanese guy, that I should do it. So I still do it cuz I like it.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Even earlier. Magda Saleh had film from Egypt - so it must be reasonably recent - which showed ordinary (working class) men doing the same moves as ordinary women (that is not the professional stage execution which the women don't do either) - ie hips and shoulders. However, since the revolution much of this has been removed from consciousness as Egyptians reinvent their culture - hence the popularity of Reda styling.

The guys I knew were not "belly dancers" but would shake their hips with the best when moved by the music. (And no, they weren't gay either just fun loving sa`iidi lads)

Yep, there is tons of footage of men doing that sort of thing on YouTube even today. Like this cool one I found the other week!


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbhBD5d6QmE"]YouTube - dancing wonderful men egyption[/ame]
But performing BD has become a "woman's thing" via colonisation, apparently. Which makes sense, and that's why men will go "oh how distasteful" watching a male BDer even as they do what *we* might consider BD when a cool song comes on the radio.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Yep, there is tons of footage of men doing that sort of thing on YouTube even today. Like this cool one I found the other week!


YouTube - dancing wonderful men egyption
But performing BD has become a "woman's thing" via colonisation, apparently. Which makes sense, and that's why men will go "oh how distasteful" watching a male BDer even as they do what *we* might consider BD when a cool song comes on the radio.

Beautiful dancing!

As I understand it, men didn't actually belly dance for money but they did dance a lot with their families and friends. However, they were not street performers of dance. I'm sure there were exceptions, but from what I understand it's something that, in public, women primarily do/did. Is this correct?

Of course if anyone's been to a ME party, the men ALWAYS dance and love showing off their moves. I wish our men were more like that!