Thread: Vintage Jamila

Very cool video...

Vintage Jamila

Wow, that is awesome!

...and little suhaila, isn't it? Thanks for posting!

I can actually see Suhaila's resemblance to her mother more now.

Love that drill-sergeant zilling!

Thanks for posting that! The soloist at the very end is Aida Al Adawi, I had such a dance crush on her! She was stunning.

You see that man standing in the background about 1 minute in (wearing turban beard & mustache)? Doesn't he look like Aziz or is it my fuzzy memory playing tricks on me?

Awesome! Thanks for posting the video link.

Wow,thank you Ravena!

Thanks Ravena!

A bit of a flashback to my own childhood, very fun :) I'm going to show my troupemates. I'm not as articulate as a video, plus I was little, but I'm always trying to describe such scenes!

Woah, that really needs to come with a major disclaimer regarding her commentary.

Ohno, what did she say? ( I am watching muted at work )

Originally Posted by mieldance

Ohno, what did she say? ( I am watching muted at work )

Stuff that, if anyone else said it, would get them raked over the coals rather than ignoried like an elephant in the living room, 'cause its Jamila Salimpour.

Isn't that Sharifa with the snake? She looks exactly the same today!

And Hakim/Rodney playing the drum.

I stopped watching when she started talking about mother goddess in belly dance history. I'll give it another go around sometime. And yes, I do remember someone ripping another Bhuzzer a new ******* for liking the idea of mother goddess and yet, her is Jamelia Salimpor saying it and some of the Bhuzzers are saying it's a nice or great video.

Kettle Black. Sorry, I'm calling it as I see it.

I hate the mother goddess stuff BUT I'm aware I'm watching archival footage. This stuff is nearly as old as I am and it reflects the time in which it was made. I do not take Jamila's history seriously. I do like looking at how US BDers were learning to zill and performing at the Ren Faire back in the day.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I stopped watching when she started talking about mother goddess in belly dance history. I'll give it another go around sometime. And yes, I do remember someone ripping another Bhuzzer a new ******* for liking the idea of mother goddess and yet, her is Jamelia Salimpor saying it and some of the Bhuzzers are saying it's a nice or great video.

Kettle Black. Sorry, I'm calling it as I see it.

First, did the same people who did the ripping post here that this video is nice, or were they different people? It's not fair to hold all bhuzzers responsible for each others' actions or to expect us all to have the same opinions.

Second, we weren't a dozen posts into the thread when Sedonia called her on it, in spite of her being a great name and revered personage in the history of the dance, and in spite of the age of the clip.

Third -- yeah, I stopped watching it then, too. I'd never criticize another person's faith, but I don't like having religion attached to my dance without any evidence to back it up.

Originally Posted by dunyah

Thanks for posting that! The soloist at the very end is Aida Al Adawi, I had such a dance crush on her! She was stunning.

Thanks from me too for posting this. Aida was my teacher for 4 and a half years some time after this film was made. I never had the opportunity to see Bal Anat perform at the Renn Faire, but did have a chance to take classes from Jamila. Brings back a multitude of memories!

I was waiting for the goddess denouncers to show up!

Why not keep an open mind and watch the whole thing? See if there is anything in the visuals or the dancing that is educational or entertaining for its historical value. If you don't like any of it, fine, but at least check it out.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

<snip>

Third -- yeah, I stopped watching it then, too. I'd never criticize another person's faith, but I don't like having religion attached to my dance without any evidence to back it up.

I've never agreed with the mother goddess attachments to this dance either, but the clip is full of some great American dancing from the time that the film was made. The whole clip is well worth watching as an archival recording of the dance in America in the late 60s and early 70s (anyone know the date of this film?), especially in the San Francisco Bay Area, regardless of the mother goddess references.

Originally Posted by dancingrrrlz

Isn't that Sharifa with the snake? She looks exactly the same today!

And Hakim/Rodney playing the drum.

Looks like Sharifa. I think I saw drummer Armando "Uncle Mafufo" in the Renn Fair audience!

Originally Posted by leylalanty

I've never agreed with the mother goddess attachments to this dance either, but the clip is full of some great American dancing from the time that the film was made. The whole clip is well worth watching as an archival recording of the dance in America in the late 60s and early 70s (anyone know the date of this film?), especially in the San Francisco Bay Area, regardless of the mother goddess references.

Exactly. It's like refusing to watch classic movies or read classic novels because they have some outdated class/race/sex stereotypes in them. Contextualise!

I didn't say that the video wasn't interesting or didn't have value.

I said the commentary should have a disclaimer.

Sure those of us who know the dance's history can put it in context, but try to think of legions of new dancers who don't, who visit the site of the famous Salimpours and watch that. It is very much presented as a documentary, and Jamila comes off very much the authority. If I didn't know better, I'd fall for it hook, line, and sinker.

edited to add: I *did* watch the entire clip before posting -- the commentary just gets worse. It is a blend of true statements, complete fabrications, unsubstantiated opinions, and irrelevant factoids pulled out of context and made to appear relevant to the dance.

Originally Posted by leylalanty

I've never agreed with the mother goddess attachments to this dance either, but the clip is full of some great American dancing from the time that the film was made. The whole clip is well worth watching as an archival recording of the dance in America in the late 60s and early 70s (anyone know the date of this film?), especially in the San Francisco Bay Area, regardless of the mother goddess references.

I know you're right, I'll try again to watch it. Apparently it's not only a great archival recording of the dance in that era/location, but also an archival record of where some of the misinformation associated with our dance began!

ETA: I watched it, and I enjoyed the dancing and showmanship very much.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Apparently it's not only a great archival recording of the dance in that era/location, but also an archival record of where some of the misinformation associated with our dance began!

You took the words right out of my mouth, Lauren! I was thinking the same thing the first time I watched it!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

First, did the same people who did the ripping post here that this video is nice, or were they different people? It's not fair to hold all bhuzzers responsible for each others' actions or to expect us all to have the same opinions.

Second, we weren't a dozen posts into the thread when Sedonia called her on it, in spite of her being a great name and revered personage in the history of the dance, and in spite of the age of the clip.

Third -- yeah, I stopped watching it then, too. I'd never criticize another person's faith, but I don't like having religion attached to my dance without any evidence to back it up.

To answer your first question, I will have to search, I don't remember who was doing the ripping, but that wasn't my point. I said a Bhuzzer got her butt ripped and SOME Bhuzzers are saying this is a nice video. I didn't bunch anyone in a group. My point was, in the ripping post it went on for 5-6 pages on how mother goddess shouldn't be taught, since there is no history to back it up, YET here is Jamila Salimpour, stating the VERY thing we argued about and people were saying, this is a nice video. Sure it has great historical value for American style dance, BUT stilll, it's teaching what we Bhuzzers have been arguing about all along. ..g.:

Second, I didn't read the entire post, so I was UNAWARE that Sedonia had already called her out on this. I wouldn't have posted anything if I'd seen that. .w.:

Third, I too, went back and watched it and I liked the dance, but the mother goddess commentary made me upset. I like it with the volume muted. I'm glad we have this evidence of belly dance being taught wrong by a well known dancer; I guess maybe it fit in with the time (era).

OK - I don't post much...and I'll probably take a lot of heat, but I do feel the need to step up on a soap box here, ladies! :soapbox:

There are so many "versions" of the history and origins of our dance...who's to say who is right, who is wrong, or otherwise???

Keep in mind that Jamila has studied the dance and it's origins incessantly and more deeply than many people for a LOT of years, studying it's form in a plethora of different cultures - not just in Egypt, or Lebanon, or Turkey, or other of the "usual suspects."

Who's to say that in these lesser known cultures that there is not a history of the origins of the dance that include child birthing or goddess worship? Who are we to say it is "wrong"? For those who want to study the history of our dance in it's entirety, you/we should listen to what is found and has been studied in all aspects of all cultures - and we should study it ourselves before passing judgment, as well. And just because it very well may be that in some of these lesser known cultures there was some goddess aspect to the origins of this dance...why should that be such a turn off to any of us dancers? Just because it may have been so in one culture, doesn't mean it has the same meanings in all the other cultures of this dance..and I think that's the beauty -- the diversity of this dance form.

Each of us dances for ourselves and for our own very personal reasons and by sometimes our own very personal inspiration, so who of us has the right to "dis" what somebody else might believe or feel or be inspired by as they dance? I find it difficult to understand why so many people are getting bent out of shape about this subject. Why is it so offensive? Why are there some of us who are so unaccepting of others' beliefs and inspirations?

I just don't get it...,f::

Now...can't we all just get along and DANCE for whatever reason inspires us????

I completely missed the whole "goddess" stuff in the video.

To focused on the dancing and technique to actually listen to the commentary - LOL

Originally Posted by ravenadesigns

I completely missed the whole "goddess" stuff in the video.

To focused on the dancing and technique to actually listen to the commentary - LOL

LOL!!! You were HIP-no-tized! HAHA!!

Originally Posted by ErikaOH

There are so many "versions" of the history and origins of our dance...who's to say who is right, who is wrong, or otherwise???

You may have missed some of the earlier conversations on the topic. I can speak for myself, and the majority of those who object to this line of teaching seem to feel the same way.

Generally, most of us are fine with the notion that the origins of our dance prior to the late 1800s are mostly lost (or clouded by the Orientalist movement that didn't adequately separate fact from fantasy). No one at this time can say that anything earlier than 150 years ago is definitively right OR wrong.

I have no problem with the two statements Jamila makes early on, in which she starts by saying 'I think.' But then she goes on to give a bunch of information as if it is factual -- 4,000 years of goddess worship, etc -- that info is NOT generally accepted as fact, or backed up by evidence that the scientific community accepts.

I don't have any problem with people saying 'I believe on faith in a history of goddess worship, and I personally think this dance originated there' as long as it's placed in a context of 'but no one is certain.' I also don't have a problem with someone saying 'I like to use this dance in my goddess worship rituals, and I'll teach you about that if you want to learn.'

But teaching such things AS IF they are facts, making statements like "This dance originated in goddess worship." Or "This dance was performed by the Ancient Egyptians/Sumerians/Mesopotamians" is just...false.

It's wrong to present your personal opinions to students or to the public as if they are well-known facts. Especially when you're considered an expert on the topic. Students and listeners will take what you say at face value, you have an obligation to tell them the truth, not present made-up information as if it's factual.

Present whatever opinions and personal beliefs you like, believe whatever you like, but don't lie to people by presenting it as some kind of fact.

When Suhaila and Bal Anat were here in St. Louis over a year ago, she presented this video at the opening of the show. There was no disclaimer for Jamila's inaccurate statements, little explanation of the very American (hippie, circus, ren faire) context in which Jamila developed her technique and style, not enough to let uninformed audience members know that what they were seeing should not be taken as fact. I know (having heard student discussions and read student blogs after the fact) that there were student dancers in that audience who completely accepted what they heard at face value and believed they had heard the real, honest-to-goddess origins of belly dance. To me, this video is a deliberate perpetuation of misinformation that other dancers have effectively debunked over the course of decades.

REAL field researchers like Morocco, Aisha Ali, etc. have presented REAL information about what CAN be substantiated about the social/cultural origins of belly dance and other Middle Eastern dances, so why can't Suhaila et al. present this video WITH the disclaimer that most of what Jamila states here is fantasy?

Let's face it...there remains a market for this fantasy crap (the commentary, that is...the dancing is fine, as representative of the origins of the American tribal movement). So that's why Suhaila will keep pushing this video forth. I would also note that in the Bal Anat program, there were dances presented as "folklore" that bore only a vague resemblance to actual folklore. So again, students walked out of there thinking they had seen "the real thing" when in fact they had seen fusion fantasy.