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  1. #1
    Master BHUZzer nasila's Avatar
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    Origins of Hankie dance

    Does anyone know where this style of dance comes from? I thought it was Persian influenced, but someone told me this is Egyptian based...

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gkgdq39UE00]YouTube - Adam Basma - Handkerchief Dance[/ame]

    There is a Reda troupe YouTube also that I can't find at the moment. Any info would be appreciated!


  2. #2
    Master BHUZzer beafarhana's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Hankie waving = Morris, as far as I'm concerned!


  3. #3
    Master BHUZzer nasila's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Quote Originally Posted by beafarhana View Post
    Hankie waving = Morris, as far as I'm concerned!
    Interesting...Morris dates back to the 15th century? Is it then neither Persian or Egyptian, but English-influenced?


  4. #4
    kat
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    I've seen scarves used in this fashion in what was called "Andalusian" dance -- and the use of little hankies or scarves (sometimes knotted) is found in some folk dancing. Debke leaders often wave a little scarf/hanky and doesn't Turkish karsilama sometimes use a scarf?

    It seems to me that a prop like this is probably used a lot throughout the M.E.


  5. #5
    Master BHUZzer nasila's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    I'm sure that's true, but there seems to be a specific style that uses a hankie in each hand. Zahra has one here also:

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUzL505mlsE&feature=user]YouTube - El Marouge by Eshta Dance Company[/ame]

    This one is actually quite similar to the Reda troupe clip. I wish I could find it! :(


  6. #6
    Master BHUZzer nasila's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Quote Originally Posted by kat View Post
    I've seen scarves used in this fashion in what was called "Andalusian" dance
    This part is particularly interesting though, as there is speculation that Morris dance came from moorish dance. Hmmm.
    Last edited by nasila; 10-15-2008 at 11:08 AM.


  7. #7
    Established BHUZzer clueless23de's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    I believe that there is also evidence of the Ouled Nail using 2 scarves, although they are not Egyptian.


  8. #8
    Master BHUZzer nasila's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Quote Originally Posted by clueless23de View Post
    I believe that there is also evidence of the Ouled Nail using 2 scarves, although they are not Egyptian.
    Ah ha! It makes much more sense that Reda would incorporate Algerian stylization than English. Getting closer...


  9. #9
    Ultimate BHUZzer tahiradancer's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Gypsies do scarf dances. . .

    {{{HUGS}}}}


  10. #10
    Master BHUZzer Michelle75's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    I'm not real familiar with this dance but what I've seen on the internet suggests it is from Iran, from a village or place called Quashi (spelling) that was settled by Turks, so the roots of the dance are Turk. I think it called raqs dastmal.

    I'm going to go look this up.

    Youtube link
    Quashqai dance
    [ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jtGraOzfOWM"]YouTube - Qashqai[/ame]
    and another
    [ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=919-3ThGjoM&feature=related"]YouTube - Qashqai Dance[/ame]
    last one from me.
    [ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D3wQSddKKPg&feature=related"]YouTube - Iranian nomad's dance[/ame]

    ETA: Yes, Helen Erkison says:
    Helene Eriksen • Traditional Dances from North Africa to Central Asia
    Persiana's profile - StumbleUpon

    and here is a site about the Quasqai in Southern Iran
    QASHQAI.NET : The Qashqai.

    Scroll down to gallery three and there are pictures of the Quasqai women dancing with scarves.
    Qashqai
    Last edited by Michelle75; 10-15-2008 at 11:36 AM.


  11. #11
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Lauren_'s Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    I don't honestly remember any of the dance steps, or whether they're similar to what we're seeing in these videos or not.

    But Amel Tafsout (who is Algerian) taught us an Andalusian scarf dance that used the scarves exactly as they're being used here. She said the dance dated from Moorish occupation of Spain, if I recall correctly, so it's sort of historic recreation more than a current folk dance? I'm extrapolating, don't anyone quote me.

    I love Amel Tafsout!


  12. #12
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Lauren_'s Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Quote Originally Posted by tahiradancer View Post
    Gypsies do scarf dances. . .

    {{{HUGS}}}}
    Which ones? In what part of the world? I've been studying Romani dances hard and haven't come across that yet. What kinds of scarves do they use? Where can I learn more about it?


  13. #13
    Master BHUZzer nasila's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Wow! It really is all over the place. I wonder which facet Reda was looking to represent? Andalusian, Algerian, or Turkish/Persian in Iran?

    Ahmet will be here next month...I will have to ask if he does hanky dance! ;P


  14. #14
    Master BHUZzer lotus's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Quote Originally Posted by nasila View Post

    This one is actually quite similar to the Reda troupe clip. I wish I could find it! :(

    look for the second half of this clip
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9pq5xScMGQ]YouTube - Folklore show with Farida Fahmi فريدة فهمى[/ame]


  15. #15
    Master BHUZzer nasila's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    yes! thanks, lotus!

    So I can't tell by the costuming or the movements, and I don't know the music...what do you all think was the most prominent inspiration for this piece of the folklore show?

    ETA a commenter wrote "Andalucian Style of the Arab time in Iberia." Alrighty then.
    Last edited by nasila; 10-15-2008 at 12:34 PM.


  16. #16
    Ultimate BHUZzer tahiradancer's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren_ View Post
    Which ones? In what part of the world? I've been studying Romani dances hard and haven't come across that yet. What kinds of scarves do they use? Where can I learn more about it?
    My friends are Yugoslavians and Russian Gypsies whose families migrated to Lebanon and the US around the time of WW2. Hitler had it out for them. The scarves they now use are the size of large handkerchiefs, the type we used to wear in high school (?) although Sophia was known to break out a silk scarf or three from time to time.

    There is a place here in LA called Gypsy Dances or something similar. It's close too where O live. I'll see if they have any info.

    {{{HUGS}}}


  17. #17
    Ultimate BHUZzer *Shira*'s Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    There are some North African regions which incorporate small handheld scarves. I haven't watched any of the youtube clips on this thread, so can't comment on those specifically. But here are a few assorted comments...
    • One of the workshops that the dancer Morocco offers involves the use of handheld scarves. It's a Moroccan schikhatt style of dance.
    • Veda Sereem teaches a scarf dance choreography on her video titled Bou Saada which is based on a performance she saw by an Algerian dancer who used scarves.
    • See this article on my web site for some of Elizabeth "Artemis" Mourat's research, which talks not only about the history of veil work but also of handheld scarves: Oriental Dance: Veil Dancing In North Africa And The Middle East
    • I didn't discuss scarves with Mahmoud Reda when I interviewed him, so don't have an answer "from the source" on the dances in the youtube clips on this thread, but I do know that he includes an Andalusian choreography in his repertoire. I just don't know whether that choreography uses scarves.


  18. #18
    Established BHUZzer CFerhat's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Tunisian folklore has the scarf dance, they call it raks al-maharim.


  19. #19
    Ultimate BHUZzer bintbeled's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    I've seen Reda dances involving scarves, all of them Andalusian style. The Ouled Nail of Algeria used scarves in their dances too. And just to round things out, there's a Tunisian scarf dance as well.


  20. #20
    Ultimate BHUZzer Suzana's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    And once upon a time I learned a Kurdish line dance involving two hankies, taught by a Kurdish dancer as culturally authentic. They do seem to be popular, those hankies.


  21. #21
    Established BHUZzer CFerhat's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    I think anywhere women traditionally wore a scarf on their head - for practical or religious reasons - you'll see a scarf dance. Certainly a handier prop than, uh, a candelabra :)


  22. #22
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Zumarrad's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Afghan men dance with a hanky as well, socially. I get the impression lots of people dance with the old hanky at any given time in many parts of the world. I think of hanky dancing as something that is best described the way ANT people describe things: it is what it is. People dance with hankies because they just DO.

    OTOH I'm sure we can come up with a story about how once at the dawn of civilisation all men and women danced with phallic objects (sticks, hankies) to represent the Divine Masculine, until it was repressed by Evil Judao-Christianity. And we can make a lovely coffee table book about it!!!


  23. #23
    Mega BHUZzer kashmir's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Quote Originally Posted by zumarrad View Post
    OTOH I'm sure we can come up with a story about how once at the dawn of civilisation all men and women danced with phallic objects (sticks, hankies) to represent the Divine Masculine, until it was repressed by Evil Judao-Christianity. And we can make a lovely coffee table book about it!!!
    You have it so wrong! The hanky is the symbol of the devine feminine - it is soft, transparent, gentle - but strong and practical. It hides and reveals the devine phallic; stroking up and floating down .... ummm,

    Back on topic, Aida Nour taught a two hanky Andalusian piece - she also suggested costumes similar to the yellow - pants, over skirt and long fitted vest.


  24. #24
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Zumarrad's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Hmm. It seems to me that you're articulating the hanky-yoni primarily as a kind of envelope for the phallus, which denies the always-already self-embrace of Woman. On the other hand, a hanky can also act as a barrier and protection - a sort of symbolic hymen, much like the veil...

    But I want a divine masculine to go with the divine feminine! With lots of beautiful colour photos of gorgeous men!

    Back to topic:


  25. #25
    Mega BHUZzer BernieV's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Check out Nursel -- Cocek dance

    home_eng

    That's where I learned it... ..g.:


  26. #26
    Official BHUZzer hannanesfo's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Algerian scarf dances-the Ouled Nail from the BouSaada area,the Andulsian dances from the capitol Algiers, and the berber style of the Kabylie mountain area-all very different in type of scarf and movements. And, remember, different parts of Algeria were at one time or another under the influence of Spain, Rome(for 400 years), and Turkey and the Moors among them shared years of culture in Spain. And a few other influences as well, don't forget the descendents of the black African slaves and 130some years of French occupation.
    I suppose most counties would have some at least one form of a scarf dance since it's such a common article.


  27. #27
    Established BHUZzer kahaz's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    This spring Su'ad and Farasha sponsored a North African workshop in New London with Morocco and Amel Tafsout in which Rocky taught Shichatt and Amel taught Andalusian-both with hankies. One of the most amazing workshop weekends ever! Both teachers are (of course!) experts in their fields; so excited to learn that Amel is moving to Oregon-me, too!-so I hope to learn more from her.

    BTW, a Morris dancer told me years ago that the name "morris" derives from Moorish and they believe that Morris dancing came from the moors style. Which seems to make sense in the context of this thread.

    Kitty


  28. #28
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Zumarrad's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Um, actually they think the name Morris might derive from "moorish", or possibly "Maris", the name of a god. The dancing is believed to predate Christianity in England and to be very old indeed.

    Mind you, they say that about BD...


  29. #29
    Master BHUZzer beafarhana's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Quote Originally Posted by zumarrad View Post
    Um, actually they think the name Morris might derive from "moorish", or possibly "Maris", the name of a god. The dancing is believed to predate Christianity in England and to be very old indeed.

    Mind you, they say that about BD...
    Yeah... but it's a nice story! So long as you are saying it's a story.

    Also, I like to point out to the Morris men that I dance with a bigger stick than they do!


  30. #30
    Advanced BHUZzer palmier's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of Hankie dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren_ View Post
    I don't honestly remember any of the dance steps, or whether they're similar to what we're seeing in these videos or not.

    But Amel Tafsout (who is Algerian) taught us an Andalusian scarf dance that used the scarves exactly as they're being used here. She said the dance dated from Moorish occupation of Spain, if I recall correctly, so it's sort of historic recreation more than a current folk dance? I'm extrapolating, don't anyone quote me.

    I love Amel Tafsout!
    I did the same workshop with Amel Tafsout and had another dance teacher from Moroco do it at one of my sjows once,
    so I was going to say that it was andalusian dance too.

    I love the Qashqai dance with the scarves. Laurel Gray does a beautiful version with her dance ensemble.


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