Thread: Making it Egyptian - use of energy

A few months ago I attended a workshop in which an Egyptian dancer taught a choreography, and at the end had one of her students (who had learned it in the past) demonstrate it for the group. The demo was for the purpose of letting class members videotape it to help them remember the choreography that was taught.

The instructor was Egyptian, and the student was not. Seeing the difference between the instructor leading the run-throughs and then the student's demo dance really drove home the difference between Egyptian and Western styles of dance.

Since then, I've been thinking about what I saw, and trying to figure out how to put it into words. I think our responses to art are generally very personal, so I realize that someone else who was in the same room I was may have experienced the situation in a way completely different from how I did. So please take my comments with a grain of salt.

This time, it wasn't a case of saying, "Egyptians do these moves and don't do those moves," because both dancers did the identical same choreography (which had been created by an Egyptian), and yet the difference between East and West was vividly apparent in how they interpreted the very same dance.

Although the choreography had some sections with crisp moves to match accents in the music, it seemed as though the Egyptian dancer's interpretation of those accents was to "tap" them with her body, while the non-Egyptian dancer punched each one hard.

Throughout the dance, it seemed as though the non-Egyptian dancer was trying for maximum range of motion, maximum energy going into each move. In contrast, the Egyptian dancer maintained a much more subtle range of motion. On the soft, introspective parts of the music she did small, subtle moves, whereas on the more energetic sections of the music she allowed more energy to go into the moves but still kept them small and controlled.

It seemed as though the non-Egyptian dancer was blasting energy out of every pore from beginning to end. In contrast, it seemed as though the Egyptian dancer was letting energy seep out in small, controlled amounts, with more being allowed out on the energetic parts of the music and less on the quieter parts. The non-Egyptian dancer seemed to create a one-way flow of energy, from her to the observers. In contrast, the Egyptian dancer would occasionally seem to gather energy back into herself, and other times release it.

Very good way to put it, never thought of it that way :)

This is great, Shira...

I like the way you articulated that, Shira. Especially the idea that the energy doesn't always flow in one direction.

I agree Shira, this is also how I would characterize the differences between Egyptian and non-Egyptian dancers. This is why I DO try to be more like the Egyptian way, and control my energy. I learned this from spending so much time watching the Egyptian dancers and realized how outward I was with my energy and moves and have learned to 'hold the music in me.'

This is interesting, but you are making the assumption that the differences you saw are solely down to the fact that one dancer was Egyptian and one was not, rather than considering that they were two different dancers with different bodies, different ears, different life experiences... it's not just a simple binary matter of one is Eastern and one is Western. One was the *instructor* and one was the *student*.

A Lebanese woman I know pointed out to me the other day that when she and her sister dance, even if they do the same movement they do it differently, because the dance is individual. We can't generalise to that extent.

I was at a party a while back, dancing with friends, and I suddenly imagined an Arabic person videoing us dancing on their cellphone and uploading it to YouTube so they could share the authentic NZ social dance style with their dance friends. And some of them would be all "oh they are so obviously Easternised, look at all the sharqi influence, globalisation is a terrible thing." While I think there are definitely things in common we can detect, it's dangerous to overgeneralise.

My teacher (who is Syrian) was just explaining this to us last night. She was talking to us about the difference between feeling the music and letting IT move you, and hearing the music and forcing your body to show everybody else that you hear it. Anybody can hear a beat and time their next move to accentuate it. But it takes a skilled dancer to FEEL the beat inside her body and allow it to move her body.

She always says that there is no reason to "point" the beat (meaning to try so hard to show that you've picked up the beat that you are purposely "striking" your body on your accents) But that if you feel the music, you body will do it automatically, and everyone will be able to see it naturally.

Interesting...very interesting...

Shareen El Safy was trying to teach this in a workshop I took a few years ago. It was the first time I'd taken a workshop with her. She talked about a sort of giving enegry to the audience and receiving from them. She performed in a showcase and her movements were subtle definitely felt the energy from her dancing.

Thank you for posting this, Shira. I'd forgot about that point she made in her workshop. Of could she spent a lot of time in Egypt and could try to teach demonstrate that point to us.

Yeah...*nodding*....

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Although the choreography had some sections with crisp moves to match accents in the music, it seemed as though the Egyptian dancer's interpretation of those accents was to "tap" them with her body, while the non-Egyptian dancer punched each one hard.

Throughout the dance, it seemed as though the non-Egyptian dancer was trying for maximum range of motion, maximum energy going into each move. In contrast, the Egyptian dancer maintained a much more subtle range of motion. On the soft, introspective parts of the music she did small, subtle moves, whereas on the more energetic sections of the music she allowed more energy to go into the moves but still kept them small and controlled.

It seemed as though the non-Egyptian dancer was blasting energy out of every pore from beginning to end. In contrast, it seemed as though the Egyptian dancer was letting energy seep out in small, controlled amounts, with more being allowed out on the energetic parts of the music and less on the quieter parts. The non-Egyptian dancer seemed to create a one-way flow of energy, from her to the observers. In contrast, the Egyptian dancer would occasionally seem to gather energy back into herself, and other times release it.

I think you articulated very well what I think when I see the great Egyptian dancers and western dancers who have developed that very same quality when using their energy. I see it and would love to be able to emulate it because as an audience member perspective I find that kind of essence is endlessly fascinating to watch.

Lovely post, Shira. And while I understand Zum's point, I do think it's been shown time and time again that us westerners will tend to externalize and over-do our movements. It could be cultural differences, differences in intent, or the fact that no matter how many times we listen to our music we are still not as familiar with it as someone who grew up with it...but there are very few western dancers whom I can relax and enjoy while watching. That, to me, is the very essence of raqs.

So, to have a more Egyptian feel, bigger isn't necessarily better?

I agree with the diffrence in how a dancer from Egyptian decent will interpert the music with her movements in a diffrent manner.
I love watching Egyptian style and have been trainned in that style.
But being a Latina, Turkish just comes more naturally to me. So that is the style I dance to most.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

This is interesting, but you are making the assumption that the differences you saw are solely down to the fact that one dancer was Egyptian and one was not, rather than considering that they were two different dancers with different bodies, different ears, different life experiences... it's not just a simple binary matter of one is Eastern and one is Western. One was the *instructor* and one was the *student*.

Yeah, yeah, I know that there are other explanations for the *one specific situation* I described. But I've seen many, many examples of what I described with respect to Eastern vs Western uses of energy, and this one situation was particularly useful for making the point because it removed music and choroegraphy as variables. So there wasn't a difference in music or movement vocabulary to distract from the point.

My husband and I have been watching old musicals on DVD (we watched Singin' in the Rain the other night), and the Western aesthetic of blasting energy out of every pore is very apparent in those.

being a Latina, Turkish just comes more naturally to me

Now here is a really interesting point. Why is Turkish "natural" to a Latina and not, for example, to, I don't know, an Australian of Celtic descent? Is it because they are both "eastern"? Is a Latina "eastern?" Realy? Did said Latina grow up in a western culture, ie the USA? Is it because both Latin and ME cultures have hip movement in their dances? Why Turkish and not Egyptian or, for that matter, Lebanese or Moroccan?

Where I come from - a western nation - energy blasting out of every pore is something we have trouble with. Why? Because being self-effacing is a virtue in our culture. You watch any NZ performer - unless they've really, really worked hard to act like an American, they've got a sense of coiled reserve. Dance is probably not the best example because dance is not a major part of NZ culture, but you watch any NZ rock musician or hip hop artist and you will see it. It's different, it's more self-effacing and quiet even when by our standards it's very self-assured and slick. We are western. We are not the same western as the US or the UK or France or Germany or even, goddammit, Australia. There are broad similarities but also noticeable differences in our cultures.

What is western and what is eastern? Where is the line drawn? We need to stop thinking in binaries.

Originally Posted by Matthews

I agree with the diffrence in how a dancer from Egyptian decent will interpert the music with her movements in a diffrent manner.
I love watching Egyptian style and have been trainned in that style.
But being a Latina, Turkish just comes more naturally to me. So that is the style I dance to most.

(unlurking)

really? I'm latina as well. I trained in AC which is heavily turkish influenced, but I dance arabic equally well.

It's a simplification. Your ethnic identity may be a factor in how you hear the music, but I know more than a few latina's who couldn't hit a beat with a bat, and many who have never been able to do a simple hip lift.

In terms of how we each internalize and demonstrate energy, everything in your life experience impacts your dancing.

What I like about Egyptian style and the subtlety of different dancers is in how the movement originates from (typically) a muscular origination, Randa is an excellent example of this. Her use of musculature to power her moves is amazing, while she still utilizes skeletal movements to propel her and frame the musculature.

For me, the difference in a dancer who "gets' Egyptian style is her ability express the movement internally, where in Turkish, you see a more external expression of movement.

I also think that one of the major differences between native dancers and others is how self consciously the dancers are.

Seeing someone who shimmies effortlessly because she is feeling the movement is an entirely different experience than watching someone who is counting out her shimmies and wondering if she looks authentic.

(re-lurking)

excellent posts!

WEIRD ANALOGY ALERT:) I think of it as an American dancer might throw a whole loaf of bread at the audience, whereas an Egyptian style dancer will (maybe) throw you a crumb, slowly over the course of the dance...

and,,,an Egyptian feel can span the sense of giving a gift, feeling/being the music or connceting w/ the audience

an American aprroach might be more of a "look at me/ see what I can do", which is really different...

American dancers might feel more compelled to 'prove' the value of the dance, turning into a display of movements and skill. because our audiences may not be versed to know what to look for.

Egyptian audiences have the benefit of culture, language and familiarity, which certainly can't hurt!

And of course, in addition to energy, there's the PUSHING of the timing/tempo. which also changes the phrasing/feel///IMHO of course:)

let's also not discount the deep rooted belief that women shouldn't dance in public- which can also create an internal feel.

that internal feel isn't just because dina's mini skirts are tight or short...

egypt is a country where 'nice' girls don't ride a motorbike open legged- they sit side saddle!!!

think out it...:) where talking the deep rooted subconcious here...

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Although the choreography had some sections with crisp moves to match accents in the music, it seemed as though the Egyptian dancer's interpretation of those accents was to "tap" them with her body, while the non-Egyptian dancer punched each one hard.

Throughout the dance, it seemed as though the non-Egyptian dancer was trying for maximum range of motion, maximum energy going into each move. In contrast, the Egyptian dancer maintained a much more subtle range of motion.

What a great description! I think that is a very accurate analysis. Working on my drum solo booklet has really brought out the difference to me how Egyptians mark their beats and use shimmies as filler. They don't hit every beat, but pick and choose according to the way the music moves them at the moment. They save the big beats as periods to a sentence. Imagine. a. sentence. with. a. period. after. every. word. .... Somehow it doesn't flow the way we are used to reading language. Egyptians use their bodies to write mostly sensual sentences ;)

As for the way Egyptian moves a dancer vs. Turkish ... being a close friend of Artemis, I can say that she and I react to music very differently. Her passionate involvement with what she hears - and her involvement with her audience - is more extroverted. My Egyptian inclination is to be more introverted, even when I'm being a little raunchy......g.: She hits double time when I hit singles.

Both she and I feed off the audience. We get our energy from them, our reason for being (raison d'etre), our inspiration for improv. I think any experienced dancer has learned that, whether she is Egyptian, Turkish or Western styled. At AWS this year I saw some amazing South American dancers who owned their stages because they looked into the audience and said with their stage presence, "I'm here, I'm good and I will entertain the pants off you!" But they said it very differently than an Egyptian. They declared, where as an Egyptian would jest, cajole or pout their way into an audience's heart.

Stream of consciousness, sorry. But that's what dancing is to me, stream of consciousness to music. Shira, I think what you said is right on the money.

Very nice analysis...I can completely see it in front of my eyes and visualize it....
I am Turkish grow up watching and dancing to Turkish music, but we have a lot of Egyptian music influence in Turkey especially Oum Kalthoum who is also called Ummu Gulsum...
My personal analysis and understanding of talented/influential Egyptian dancers' moves/style of dance is that growing up in that country, feeling the music, understanding the lyrics (if there is) plays big role in their dance. Training and great technique makes this perfect of course, but how they move fluidly and so naturally comes from the root. It is hard to develop and understand this even after years of training.
Feelings come from the heart and moving to the melody and the beat of the music is the key of that fine style. To be able to show what music says to a deaf person is probably a good analogy of how you interpret the music with your body and have him/her to feel it with your vibration.
I just love dancers that feel what they do and share that love and joy with audience, no matter where they are from...

Originally Posted by zumarrad

What is western and what is eastern? Where is the line drawn? We need to stop thinking in binaries.

Zummard, I'm glad you brought this up b/c I have always just automatically assumed "eastern" and "western" meant hemisphere, making it very "binary". The western hemisphere consists of half of the Antarctic, the two Americas, and Canada, while the Eastern Hemisphere consists of the rest of the world.
Unargueably, you can go north or south in each hemisphere BUT you are still either east or west. So, that's how I concider what is Eastern and Western. You are Eastern in New Zeland and I'm Western in N. America. I know it's simple and not fancy, but it's true in my opinion.

OMG I'm Eastern! Yay! I don't have to worry about appropriating someone else's culture *any more*.

Line up for the opinions of an authentic exotic other right here! Free native opinions on how I feeeel the music I never heard till I was 30!!!

But seriously, yes, of course, the east/west thing is spurious even geographically these days. And culturally. We can say it's English-speaking countries, but then what of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal? We can say it's Europe-and-America but then what of Australia, NZ, South Africa? Is South America a Western place or an Eastern place? Is Egypt more or less Eastern than Morocco? How "westernised" does a place have to be to be "western"?

ETA: If that model is commonly understood in the US, then it's no wonder so many articles I pick up talk about "western" and "US" as if they are the same thing and don't consider countries like the UK or France, and their effect on countries like Egypt and Lebanon.

No more binaries. Global, plz!

[/QUOTE]What is western and what is eastern? Where is the line drawn? We need to stop thinking in binaries.[/QUOTE]

The idea of the east was defined by European colonial powers in relation to their own geographical location. There was no such place as the 'Middle East' or the 'Near East' before it was defined by others. People from the Middle East have not always reffered to themselves in this way. Think of the word Middle East, the east can only be in relation to somewhere else which is considered the center or starting point.
In this way east and west become terms of power relations and not simply cardinal points.

Great topic! I love breaking it down and hearing everyones view points.

Id say Egyptians are more grounded and connected to the music and the feelings within themselves.

Westeners put more energy into the technique and steps and giving that WOW factor to an audience.

In reference to Shiras example, maybe the teacher felt it more as she was the one who made the choreography and therefore more connected to it. The student had learnt the choreo and wasnt as connected. Just a thought.

Forgot to say: Understanding the lyrics and the cultural meaning to a song is important also.

Great analysis and description, Shira! It's what I've observed over many years of watching Egyptian and other middle eastern native dancers. One of the fundamental differences between native Arab dancers and non-Arabs, as Amber_moon said she learned from her Syrian teacher, is "...the difference between feeling the music and letting IT move you, and hearing the music and forcing your body to show everybody else that you hear it."

I think Willow's analogy "I think of it as an American dancer might throw a whole loaf of bread at the audience, whereas an Egyptian style dancer will (maybe) throw you a crumb, slowly over the course of the dance..." is not weird at all. As Raqia Hassan told me early in my private lessons with her, "Don't show the audience everything you have as soon as you enter the stage."

shokrun , miss leyla

so i'm not a bhuz kill/thread killer! woohoo!

and yes, east and west are rather indicative of where you are....

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Where I come from - a western nation - energy blasting out of every pore is something we have trouble with. Why? Because being self-effacing is a virtue in our culture. You watch any NZ performer - unless they've really, really worked hard to act like an American, they've got a sense of coiled reserve.

I don't understand why you would call NZ a "western nation". Are you refering to western in the philosophical since?

From what you've typed above I would call NZ very Eastern (like eastern philosophy beliefs, being modest, not stirring the pot, self effacing as you said, etc...)

I think maybe the terms eastern and western are being used to describe ways of life and not geographical locations. SILLY ME. I've got it now.

Michelle

Originally Posted by honoluluhabibi

let's also not discount the deep rooted belief that women shouldn't dance in public- which can also create an internal feel.

that internal feel isn't just because dina's mini skirts are tight or short...

egypt is a country where 'nice' girls don't ride a motorbike open legged- they sit side saddle!!!

think out it...:) where talking the deep rooted subconcious here...

But if you have ever been to Egypt and seen the men dance in the baladi style they do the same thing as the women as far as hold the music deep inside. And also, the women are free to dance at home as much as they wish, in fact it is expected, and if you have ever been in an Egyptian home they still will dance in the same way as far as release of energy. I think it just is how they (all Egyptians, men and women) interpret the music more than anything else, and we are just looking too deeply into the reasons why, using our own Western biases about their culture.

excellent points- perhaps to further that generalizations are not always completely inclusive:), perhaps a starting point

but, if a man is 'mimicking ' a woman in egypt...oh well! :)

The way that I've understood the "Eastern" and "Western" terms to work are that anyone living in an area of primarily white European descent is considered to be "Western." So it would be the US, Great Britain, Australia, NZ, Germany, etc.

It's tricky, though, because I don't think most places in Africa are really included in this binary. I also think the system is outdated.

I don't understand why you would call NZ a "western nation". Are you refering to western in the philosophical since?

From what you've typed above I would call NZ very Eastern (like eastern philosophy beliefs, being modest, not stirring the pot, self effacing as you said, etc...)

I think maybe the terms eastern and western are being used to describe ways of life and not geographical locations. SILLY ME. I've got it now

WOW. This has actually been a revelation to me. I get so frustrated with the US-centric nature of use of the term "western" in articles written by USers and in general online discussions with USers. I can't understand why the influence of Britain and France in the ME, for instance, gets discounted in favour of "Egyptians copied Hollywood movies". NOW I understand. These US writers do not use Western in a philosophical sense but in a geographic sense that places them "West" and since the hemisphere in question is largely taken up by the Americas...

That is the most bizarre thing I ever heard. Whenever I use "western" I mean Europe first of all. The "east" is after all east of *England,* from their perspective. But I am really using it in the philosophical sense, and then of course I have to problematise it because there are multiple "western" modes of being.

Thanks, this has clarified it a lot.