Thread: When is it no longer belly dance?

After attending Rak East and dancing in a local hafli in the last two weeks, I am surprised at how much things have changed in the last couple years. A decade ago, when I started dancing, hafli's and festivals had a nice diversity of dance styles. There was cabaret, tribal, folk dances, etc. Lately most of what I see is varieties of fusion, using non middle eastern music. In the hafli, I was one of only 2 or 3 people who actually used middle eastern music. Now granted, it was a halloween event but I saw a similiar trend of non middle eastern music at other haflis recently and at Rak too. My questions to everyone are, at what point do we stop labeling these types of performances as belly dance? I did not see much belly dancing at the hafli I was in but it was advertised as belly dancing. Do we want the public to think that that is what belly dancing is? Does the performance count as belly dance if there are only one or two movements that are associated with belly dance in it? Even if it is to non middle eastern music? Why do they feel compelled to dance at a belly dance event? Personally I don't mind seeing a little of everything but it is getting to the point of rediculousness. I get angry when I think I am going to see a representation of dances from all over the middle east and I end up watching performance after performance of interpretive and modern dance being billed as belly dance. Call it what it is. Why try to identify it with belly dancing? Have a fusion festival or something. Don't use the term hafli when your not even doing anything remotely middle eastern.

I think this is indeed a problem.

I don't have a problem with a show that is mostly traditional, with one or two well-done tangential or fusion pieces (properly labeled). That can actually add some nice diversity to the show.

But a show advertised as belly dance that is mostly not, that is a problem.

My current comfort is that by doing good old bellydance, I am pretty original in my neck of the woods.

I have had many discussions on "what is bellydance" - and those who perform to modern music and add movement from different dance traditions sincerely feel that their performances are bellydance, and that they add versatility and new expression to this dance. Some are also not excited by traditional ME music, but feel attracted to other tunes. Others feel that it is an important artistic choice to expand what is bellydance by pushing the envelope. But, overall I found everybody is deeply passionate about the fact that their performances are bellydance.

i guess as long as the stuff is properly labelled, everything should be fine.
you can dance 'true' bellydance to modern music if the moves etc are BD.
fusion should be called fusion (and as much of possible, state fusions of which styles!)
i guess you could call "modern bellydance" or under some other name, if you're being very creative with new moves.
some stuff might be "bellydance-inspired", but can't truly be considered bellydance.... like the hip-hop-ish kinda dance that includes maybe a couple bellydance moves but that's it...

i agree with you, it's the same thing with vids on youtube, it's really irritating when you're expecting to see bellydance and all you're offered is some girl shaking her rear and occasionnally boobs, and calling it bellydance cos her tummy is uncovered.

My current comfort is that by doing good old bellydance, I am pretty original in my neck of the woods.
***** we are with you on that ! especially since the "fusion" dancer's here decided to put on a burleque show last week!
yep! down to pasties and all.
one fusion troup leader went a bit far, and her rep is a bit muddy now!

Originally Posted by Kathiya

you can dance 'true' bellydance to modern music if the moves etc are BD.

But belly dance (well, raqs sharqi) is more than just a series of movements strung together. Just doing a shimmy doesn't make it belly dance.

Originally Posted by steffib

My current comfort is that by doing good old bellydance, I am pretty original in my neck of the woods.

I feel that way too from time to time...

I danced at a very fusion-y hafla last year. I danced beledi (Tahtil Shubbak), and there were a lot of WTF? expressions in the audience. I don't think a lot of the students of that particular studio see a lot of actual Middle Eastern dance. Yet they are all quite convinced that what they are doing is belly dance.

Some are also not excited by traditional ME music, but feel attracted to other tunes.

And my question for these folks is, why, then, did you choose belly dance , of all possible dance genres? To me "belly dance" is Middle Eastern and so goes hand in hand with ME music. But I guess that's why I'm seen as the stick-in-the-mud, traditionalist weirdo in my area...

...don't even get me started on this topic...

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

But belly dance (well, raqs sharqi) is more than just a series of movements strung together. Just doing a shimmy doesn't make it belly dance.

don't get me wrong, i agree. but wouldn't you recognise a good bellydance vid even with your computer volume on mute?
what i mean is, you can perfectly well dance true bellydance, with the moves, technique, and spirit of it, to modern music. though i personally prefer if the track chosen contains the rythms used in BD, it also works on just techno..

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

And my question for these folks is, why, then, did you choose belly dance , of all possible dance genres? To me "belly dance" is Middle Eastern and so goes hand in hand with ME music. But I guess that's why I'm seen as the stick-in-the-mud, traditionalist weirdo in my area...

sure it should go hand it hand with the music. but does that mean that's the only music it can be danced to? i have to admit, some of the old-ish ME music just doesn't do it for me. some tracks i do like, but i'd say it's about 50/50. or less. but i love the dance itself, the moves, the spirit, the style...
does that mean i'm not allowed to dance it and love it? just because, well honestly, ME probably isn't my fave musical genre?
i think that would be kinda sad.
i'm the first to admit i don't do "pure" bellydance. but does that mean i can't dance it at all?

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I feel that way too from time to time...

I danced at a very fusion-y hafla last year. I danced beledi (Tahtil Shubbak), and there were a lot of WTF? expressions in the audience. I don't think a lot of the students of that particular studio see a lot of actual Middle Eastern dance. Yet they are all quite convinced that what they are doing is belly dance.




And my question for these folks is, why, then, did you choose belly dance , of all possible dance genres? To me "belly dance" is Middle Eastern and so goes hand in hand with ME music. But I guess that's why I'm seen as the stick-in-the-mud, traditionalist weirdo in my area...

Me too, and I'm sure I've offended a few fusion dancers...

I personally feel that "belly dance" is a specific genre, like flamenco. You wouldn't put on a flamenco skirt over combat boots, do a couple of hand floreos to industrial noise and call it flamenco, would you?

Seriously, the dance, the music, and the culture - whether it be "native" or of the diaspora, is essential to the dance. Strip away the culture, and you have a sterilized, often orientalist version of the dance (the poser version, IMO), strip away the music, and you have a series of movements...mix those movements with other dance forms, put to non-ME music, danced and costumed in a style completely alien to the origins, and you have something other than belly dance.

I'm NOT saying that fusion isn't good dancing, isn't inspired (sometimes, when it's not trying too hard to be whatever the latest Fusion darling is), but it's not belly dance.

I call it Urban World Fusion Dance, which I think is a perfect description, and frees those dancers to follow whatever inspirations they find...

The problem for me is when people want to self-identify as "belly dancers" but they don't want to actually BE "belly dancers." I feel like they are co-opting a whole genre of dance-my dance-for their ego gratification.

I should never go to a belly dance show and find my dance style to be unique. If that is the case, then I'm NOT at a belly dance show. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Kathiya

but wouldn't you recognise a good bellydance vid even with your computer volume on mute?

Actually, no. Not long ago there was some weird fetishist dude posting his YouTube video montages of belly dancers here. Sorcerer? He collected clips of various dancers and dubbed in different non-ME musical tracks. Anyway, his videos prove that when the movements are disassociated from the music that they lose context and impact, and sometimes even look bizarre or grotesque.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

The problem for me is when people want to self-identify as "belly dancers" but they don't want to actually BE "belly dancers." I feel like they are co-opting a whole genre of dance-my dance-for their ego gratification.

Tamrahenna, I am in TOTAL agreement with all you've said, especially the above quote.

I think there's a big fat business advantage to co-opting the NAME belly dance, and that's why some fusionistas are so reluctant to let it go. Art, schmart. It's business...it gets bodies into the classes, the workshops, etc. and it gets people to buy the DVDs, CDs, etc.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I call it Urban World Fusion Dance, which I think is a perfect description, and frees those dancers to follow whatever inspirations they find...

I like that term!

The problem for me is when people want to self-identify as "belly dancers" but they don't want to actually BE "belly dancers." I feel like they are co-opting a whole genre of dance-my dance-for their ego gratification.

More kudos to you, THTX!

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I personally feel that "belly dance" is a specific genre, like flamenco. You wouldn't put on a flamenco skirt over combat boots, do a couple of hand floreos to industrial noise and call it flamenco, would you?

Seriously, the dance, the music, and the culture - whether it be "native" or of the diaspora, is essential to the dance. Strip away the culture, and you have a sterilized, often orientalist version of the dance (the poser version, IMO), strip away the music, and you have a series of movements...mix those movements with other dance forms, put to non-ME music, danced and costumed in a style completely alien to the origins, and you have something other than belly dance.

Yes, yes, yes, YES!!!! I am totally on the same page as you, Tarahenntx!!!!! I've discussed this with a teacher of mine of how there's a move away from the culture which belly dancing came from. We talked about if it had to do with racism towards the Arab, Turkish, Greek culture but that may be an entirely different thread. I was on a dancer's site recently and she had 'Tribal dance' and 'Gothic dance' and I thought that was a good description of those styles. I went to a workshop with said dancer and asked her about malaya which she said she hasn't tackled. But someone who was listening to our conversation asked if malaya involved Tribal (ATS) belly dance. We both turned to her and said 'No' and she then went on to explain that ATS has nothing to do Arabs. And she's right ATS was developed in the US.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I'm NOT saying that fusion isn't good dancing, isn't inspired (sometimes, when it's not trying too hard to be whatever the latest Fusion darling is), but it's not belly dance.

I call it Urban World Fusion Dance, which I think is a perfect description, and frees those dancers to follow whatever inspirations they find...

The problem for me is when people want to self-identify as "belly dancers" but they don't want to actually BE "belly dancers." I feel like they are co-opting a whole genre of dance-my dance-for their ego gratification.

I should never go to a belly dance show and find my dance style to be unique. If that is the case, then I'm NOT at a belly dance show. Sorry.

I agree with you whole heartedly.

This is my biggest complaint! Whatever happened to Middle Eastern dance? If you want to fuse, fine - I love to see new styles. But don't call it Middle Eastern dance when in fact it's something else. Just because it has a shimmy and a hip circle here or there doesn't mean it's Middle Eastern bellydance.

I completely understand the complaint about so many "fusion" performers doing everything except bellydance! If I go to a hafla, I am going to enjoy bellydance--I do NOT want to see anything "burlesque" and PLEASE don't make me sit through 15+ hip-hop-with-a-shimmy routines!

I think this excess of "fusion" we're seeing is because there are not enough performance or social venues for other styles of dance. Sure, there are clubs where you can hip-hop and breakdance, but they're usually full of booze and hookers. You can go line dancing if that's your thing, but again, it's usually in a bar. And ballet? Well, occasionally you can perform in your local kiddie production, but expect to pay big recital fees. Haflas are a relaxed, fun, and usually safe environment for dancers, so everybody wants in on it. Maybe we should kindly encourage these "fusion" dancers to form their own dance parties?

For those who feel strongly about fusion being labeled as belly dance, there is someone who feels just as strong it is not.

I completely agree with tamrahennatx. There are four elements to the dance~ The culture, the music, the moves, and the costume that reflects their culture, their music & their moves. Delete an element and what you're are trying to convey to the audience sans words (the dance) becomes convoluted.

We honor their cultures (pick one) by learning & improving our skills, it's Raks Sharki. Add an additional element or culture and it's fusion.

While cleaning our home I dance to the radio. I'm also wearing sweats, no make-up, and sliding across the kitchen floor like Tom Cruise, with hip bumps & shimmies thrown in. Fusion, definitely fusion.

Originally Posted by BrynjaBuhund

Maybe we should kindly encourage these "fusion" dancers to form their own dance parties?

I completely agree.

Look at it this way:

Belly dance has co-opted moves from many other dance sources, including ballet. Just because we now use arabesques and pas de bourres doesn't mean we are doing ballet. In fact, I'm sure a ballet dancer would be offended by the suggestion!

Dance is a living art--it morphs and changes over time. The raqs sharqi of today is different than, say, the ghawazie dances of earlier days, though they share the same roots and movement vocabulary. At some point the dance changed enough so that people started calling it something different. I think what we are seeing is similar. The dance (or a part of it, at least) is changing and eventually it will find its new name.

There is a simple resolution to this predicament.

A) The coordinator of the show could dictate the type of performance the performers will be allowed~ music, dancing and costume. Then title the show as such.

or

B)The coordinator of the show could ask the performers what form of dance they intend to perform that night and title the show as a form of fusion.

Veering off course: Does the host know enough about the dance to delineate Raks Sharki or Fusion, then set guide lines? Or perhaps we'll just call it belly dance and sort it out later. (Oh! That was my first flounce ..g.:)

Originally Posted by aazura

Dance is a living art--it morphs and changes over time. The raqs sharqi of today is different than, say, the ghawazie dances of earlier days, though they share the same roots and movement vocabulary. At some point the dance changed enough so that people started calling it something different. I think what we are seeing is similar. The dance (or a part of it, at least) is changing and eventually it will find its new name.

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong but are you saying that raqs sharqi came from or was based on Ghawazee dancing? Sorry but I think I'm reading this wrong and want to understand.

Originally Posted by BrynjaBuhund

Haflas are a relaxed, fun, and usually safe environment for dancers, so everybody wants in on it. Maybe we should kindly encourage these "fusion" dancers to form their own dance parties?

Originally Posted by stardancer

I completely agree.

I nearly just choked on my orange juice. Ah, sweet irony.

Actually, the "fusion" dancers DO form their own dance parties and festivals. And then the "non-fusion" people ***** about that - the fact that they're doing it, or that they have guidelines geared towards fusion performances (at a fusion event! heaven forbid! that's discrimination! -lest you think I jest, there was a whole thread about it last spring).

Frankly, at most of the events I go to, the people doing the fusion MOST often are good ole' regular traditional dance people who want to let their hair down and try something different. Not counting Rakkasah East, the last two events I have attended (Beach Blanket Beledi & Raks Spooki), I would venture to say that 75% of both shows, the "fusion" pieces were done by dancers who normally dance more traditionally.

And halfas are a great place to do that, to have FUN in a community environment.

So it's really a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Originally Posted by akashablue

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong but are you saying that raqs sharqi came from or was based on Ghawazee dancing? Sorry but I think I'm reading this wrong and want to understand.

It's not the best example, but it was the only thing I could think of in my pre-caffeinated state!

I'm not saying Ghawazie turned into BD--NO. I'm saying they share a similar cultural history and movement vocabulary. As I said, it's not the best example. My point is dance evolves and changes and Ghawazie has influenced the evolution of modern BD.

Originally Posted by aazura

It's not the best example, but it was the only thing I could think of in my pre-caffeinated state!

I'm not saying Ghawazie turned into BD--NO. I'm saying they share a similar cultural history and movement vocabulary. As I said, it's not the best example. My point is dance evolves and changes and Ghawazie has influenced the evolution of modern BD.

Ok. I thought I was reading it wrong :)

Originally Posted by aazura

Look at it this way:

Belly dance has co-opted moves from many other dance sources, including ballet. Just because we now use arabesques and pas de bourres doesn't mean we are doing ballet. In fact, I'm sure a ballet dancer would be offended by the suggestion!

Dance is a living art--it morphs and changes over time. The raqs sharqi of today is different than, say, the ghawazie dances of earlier days, though they share the same roots and movement vocabulary. At some point the dance changed enough so that people started calling it something different. I think what we are seeing is similar. The dance (or a part of it, at least) is changing and eventually it will find its new name.

I think you're right about a new name emerging, eventually, and THTX's suggestion of Urban World Fusion Dance is a good one.

But this argument that "traditional" belly dance borrows from other cultural sources is always where I get stuck when thinking about, and getting annoyed with, the everything-but-the-kitchen-sink fusion type of "belly dance."

I would love to be able to argue respect for cultural roots and all, but--well, isn't raqs sharqi a "fusion" of different cultural elements as well? If that's true, how do we creditably criticize other fusings with belly dance? I'm not trying to play gotcha, I really would like to discuss this, because sometimes my brain just stops at this point.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I think there's a big fat business advantage to co-opting the NAME belly dance, and that's why some fusionistas are so reluctant to let it go. Art, schmart. It's business...it gets bodies into the classes, the workshops, etc. and it gets people to buy the DVDs, CDs, etc.

Yes.

Originally Posted by rosehips

I nearly just choked on my orange juice. Ah, sweet irony.

Actually, the "fusion" dancers DO form their own dance parties and festivals. And then the "non-fusion" people ***** about that - the fact that they're doing it, or that they have guidelines geared towards fusion performances (at a fusion event! heaven forbid! that's discrimination! -lest you think I jest, there was a whole thread about it last spring).

Frankly, at most of the events I go to, the people doing the fusion MOST often are good ole' regular traditional dance people who want to let their hair down and try something different. Not counting Rakkasah East, the last two events I have attended (Beach Blanket Beledi & Raks Spooki), I would venture to say that 75% of both shows, the "fusion" pieces were done by dancers who normally dance more traditionally.

And halfas are a great place to do that, to have FUN in a community environment.

So it's really a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

You know, this isn't my issue at all. It's the people who do fusion all the time who insist that what they do is "belly dance". It's not. It's Urban World Fusion. I don't mind that they DO what they do, the problem for me is that they feel a NEED to label themselves as belly dancers and what they do as belly dance, even though it is not.

Then they go on to teach others whose only knowledge of belly dance is from their fusion instructors. And *POOF* just like that, in a matter of years, the entire history of belly dance in the 20th century has been ripped away...

When people look at the belly dancer in beads and chiffon dancing to Abdel Halim Hafez like SHE's the anomaly at a BELLY DANCE show, then I have a big problem.

Ah, Tamra Henna, you have my little belly dancer heart presented to you on a sterling silver platter!

Originally Posted by Taj

But this argument that "traditional" belly dance borrows from other cultural sources is always where I get stuck when thinking about, and getting annoyed with, the everything-but-the-kitchen-sink fusion type of "belly dance."

I would love to be able to argue respect for cultural roots and all, but--well, isn't raqs sharqi a "fusion" of different cultural elements as well? If that's true, how do we creditably criticize other fusings with belly dance? I'm not trying to play gotcha, I really would like to discuss this, because sometimes my brain just stops at this point.

A cultural art form such as dance can absorb elements of another cultural art form and integrate those elements without essentially becoming something entirely new.

For example, in modern flamenco music, it's common to see the incorporation of the cajon. The cajon is an Afro-Peruvian instrument, yet I don't think that anyone would argue that the incorporation of the cajon into flamenco music has altered flamenco into something new and unrecognizable as flamenco. Yet the flamenco of today is certainly different than the flamenco of the early 20th century...but it's still flamenco.

Flamenco is firmly grounded in a cultural tradition; other elements may be integrated into it, but that doesn't change its cultural identity, especially for the members of the culture with whom it originated. I believe the same is true of raqs sharqi.