Thread: sexual vs. non-sexual

i was watching 'american bellydancer' last night while putting away laundry. my favorite part is the discussion between the dancers about whether or not bellydance has a 'sexual' component.

jillina thinks the dance is not sexual but that people see it that way because there are pelvic movements ('the area' as she calles it ..l;,). she thinks its feminine, expressive, and sensual but not sexual.

ansuya, amar gamal and others think the dance does have a sexual component. ansuya talked about learning the dance from her mother as a form of women's sexual liberation.

artemisia's seduction interview post got me re-thinking these various perspectives.

so, what do bhuzzers think? is there a sexual component to bellydance? do you express sexuality in your dance? do you feel comfortable talking in terms of sexuality with the gp, or do you think it only confuses the bellydance/stripper line?

it does have sexual components- not like grinding X rated stuff, but it is there and that's not bad. i was just watching an old egyptian movie and the bellydancer leaned into a man so close, with her leg lifted- not it was not sensual- it was "come hither"!!

Well of course it has a sexual component, just like a person has a sexual component. It's just a) not entirely about sex and b) not necessarily about presenting yourself as a sexual object.

In my thesis I've paid some attention to belly dancing as a physical, embodied practice as opposed to just looking at representation, and thought a bit about how in belly dance, we actually self-touch all the time, by creating folds and ripples in our flesh and rolling our muscles around. A lot of the pleasure in BD is the pleasurable attention to our own bodies, which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether somebody else is looking at you or not. To me sexuality doesn't begin and end with some chap's bits in mine. A person has sexual potentiality all the time, and it can take multiple forms.

I really like Luce Irigaray's "two lips" metaphor where she points out that women's genitalia are in a constant state of self-embrace, neither one nor two but both at once. People criticise Irigaray for being essentialist (though others argue that her essentialism is strategic) but it's quite a *nummy* idea. Belly dancing as a bodily experience really reminds me of that.

Originally Posted by shirel

it does have sexual components- not like grinding X rated stuff, but it is there and that's not bad. i was just watching an old egyptian movie and the bellydancer leaned into a man so close, with her leg lifted- not it was not sensual- it was "come hither"!!

This sounds like you're referring to the movie Afrita Hanem, which starred Samia Gamal.

It's important to be careful when referring to the old Egyptian clips to justify our belief in what Egyptians did or did not think about the dance, because it's important to know the context of the story line. For example, if you're referring to the scene I'm thinking of, it was NOT intended to represent a belly dance performance as it would have been seen in a nightclub. Instead, Samia's character was a genie who wanted her master for herself, but at the time he found the bottle he was infatuated with another woman and his commands to the genie were all about stuff calculated to "get the girl". The whole movie is a comedy about the genie's efforts to get her man and his ongoing insistence on pursuing the other woman. So, throughout the entire movie everything she did, not just the dance, was for the purpose of enticing him away from the other woman.

That said, I do think belly dancing helps women own their sexuality. It allows us to see ourselves as beautiful, sexy beings, and can liberate us from feeling depressed over the fact that we don't conform to the mass-media images that surround us. But really, I think a happy, healthy, comfortable-in-her-own-skin woman is sexy regardless of whether she's belly dancing or just walking through the aisles of the grocery store. Belly dancing is just one way to express that comfortable-in-our-own-skin feeling, and for some women it's a tool for helping attain that feeling.

i was taught that bellydance encompasses all that it means to be human, which obviously includes sexuality. however, i do not feel sexy when i dance. most of the time i feel joyful, or coy, or silly, or flirty, but never sexy. also, i haven't ever intentionally projected sexuality while dancing. i am very aware of how the gp perceives bellydancing, and i wonder if this holds me back from expressing that part of myself to the gp...

for those who think bellydance has sexual component, do you actively express it in your dance?

WARNING: SOCIOLOGICAL WORDY WINDBAG EVALUATION TO FOLLOW:

I think the word "sexual" is largely subjective. In order for something to be "sexy" it must remind someone of (or put someone in the mind of) the act of sexual intercourse. These cues are very different for each individual person. However, each culture (or group) usually shares some standardized ideas about what acts, clothing, behaviors, and speech will be considered sexual cues.

Most societies sexually objectify everything a woman does, says, wears, and automatically puts a "sexy" stamp on it. Women themselves are seen as sexual vessels and objects in every single culture in the world. Primarily because biologically, humans are sexual organisms. We need sex to survive as a species, and so it is very firmly planted in our programing. Because of this, women, being the baby carriers and the "vessel to impregnate" are seen as sexual creatures and therefore, anything we do, can be misconstrued as a sexual cue. (hence the massive amounts of porno sites that sexualize everything from women eating, to women riding bikes)

Most cultures however for the most part, only recognize certain activities, behaviors and speech to be "sexual". Most of the time this involves behaviors that specifically mimic the act of sexual intercourse, (things that LOOK or SOUND like sex) I.E. Hip movement, belly movement, nudity, licking of lips, visible salivation, pouting, sweating, moaning, etc. Any movement of certain areas beyond what it necessary for normal daily life is marginalized as sexual.

Because sex is not simply a behavior for humans its also largely tied into emotion and mushy stuff, some cultures even sexualize emotion.

All of that being said, bellydance can very well be viewed as a sexual act, For many reasons. 1. Its being performed by a woman (as I explained before, a creature who solely biologically speaking IS sex on legs, walking around waiting to be impregnated) 2. It involves movement of the belly, hips, and waist. 3. It invokes an emotional response. (making the watcher feel closely tied to the dancer even if for a second) 4. It involves nudity, or implied nudity. (anything that exposes parts of the body that are marginalized as "sexual" by a society is nudity. Especially the legs, hips, buttocks, belly, or breasts of a female)

So in answer to your question, yes, belly dance CAN be seen as sexual, for these reasons. And honestly, I don't see anything wrong with that. As humans we find sex, and all things "sexy" to be a big part of entertainment. Sex sells because its a HUGE part of our DNA. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an entertainer embracing that part of her and displaying it "tastefully" (which is another subjective word but I digress) as it suits her and to the extent that her community will allow.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Well of course it has a sexual component, just like a person has a sexual component. It's just a) not entirely about sex and b) not necessarily about presenting yourself as a sexual object.

I totally agree with this. Does is have a sexual side? Yes. Is it all about sex? No. I feel that in dance we express so many different moods and emotions, its silly to say that sexuality doesn't play at least a small part.

I know that a lot of dancers are hesitant to say that there is sexuality in belly dance because we dont want to be lumped in with strictly erotic dance forms, for this reason I wouldn't talk about sexuality in belly dance to a non dancer. But come on, you cant deny that belly dancers are sexy!

The guy I'm currently dating came to his first show recently. Afterward, he said 'Well, it's not a harvest dance!' LOL.

I had to agree with him -- yes, sexuality is certainly a component of the dance. But it's a flirtatious, implied, old-movie glamour kind of sexuality. It's not an X-rated, pornographic, trying-to-get-you-aroused kind of sexuality.

If a woman was raised to think of herself as a sexless, desireless being (as 'nice girls' once were, and in some families still are) then it's going to be VERY liberating for her to get in touch with her sexuality and dance from that place. Not as a *purely* sexual being -- and most definitely not as anyone's sexual object! -- but as a woman who feels free to explore her full emotional range and who enjoys her sexuality as part of who she is.

Amber Moon,

I think you nailed it when you said "Sex sells".
When we think of sex, we think of breasts, ass, hips, penis and vagina.
No matter how much we say we interpret music with our whole bodies, what we dancers are putting out is our breasts, asses and hips.
They sell the song for us no matter what level dancer you are; Fifi down to Suzy Nippletassels. Our breasts and hips are what eyes are drawn to first as we dance to the beautiful music of Alf Leyla, Fakarouni, Zay el hawa or whatever other peice it may be. Than the audience takes in what we are doing with the music using our bodies as a vessel of musical communication.

It is really hippocritical of us to say otherwise. Now does that mean I will NEVER bellydance again b/c it is sexual NO WAY!! I'm proud of my sexuality and I will continue to dance.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

But really, I think a happy, healthy, comfortable-in-her-own-skin woman is sexy regardless of whether she's belly dancing or just walking through the aisles of the grocery store. Belly dancing is just one way to express that comfortable-in-our-own-skin feeling, and for some women it's a tool for helping attain that feeling.

Yes! I totally agree.

My take on it is that while belly dancing is not necessarily explicitly sexual, it's undeniably sensuous. And sensuousness is often a component of sexuality.

for those who think bellydance has sexual component, do you actively express it in your dance?

Well, no, but I don't know that I 'actively express' it at any other time either. I mean, if I want to have sex with someone, I ... I don't know that I could tell you what I do really, other than be conscious of the sexual tension and probably make more eye contact than usual and stand closer. I don't deliberately do things like stroke wineglasses suggestively or whatever. I probably do that all the time because wineglasses are nice to touch and hold! I don't display my body any more or any less than usual unless I'm at a point where it is undeniably game on.

I am told I am quite a sexy dancer in performance, but I'm not doing it on purpose. I'm just liking being in my own skin and dancing to that music.

ETA: I have often thought about BD in a sexual scenario and I don't think I could do it. I could *not* do the kind of dancing I normally do in a private show for a boyfriend with the intent of seducing him because it would feel *too silly* and kind of weird. That has made me think that seeing someone of the right sex doing something they like and are good at is the sexy thing. Especially if they are absorbed in it and not involving you. Boys playing guitars are sexy. Men fixing cars or shearing or doing manlyman labour are sexy. Of course in those latter cases, the activity is highly gendered as a masculine thing and the skills and what is worn highlight things we think of as masculine, like strength and muscles and sweatiness. But I dated a guy who made clothes for a living a couple of times, and the times I found him most attractive were when he was displaying those skills (fitting someone, yanking on my fabric and telling me whether it had lyrca in it or not). However, I wouldn't ask a man to get his gear off and fix the toilet seductively.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

Our breasts and hips are what eyes are drawn to first as we dance ...

Maybe because we decorate our breasts, hips and asses generously with shiny beads, sequins, rhinestones and generous portions of moving, swinging fringe???

Lauren, NO. I think you're really reaching there.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Maybe because we decorate our breasts, hips and asses generously with shiny beads, sequins, rhinestones and generous portions of moving, swinging fringe???

LOL

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I am told I am quite a sexy dancer in performance, but I'm not doing it on purpose. I'm just liking being in my own skin and dancing to that music.

Ditto.

I'm me. I don't character it all up, dance just shows different parts of who I am. Being a sexual person (not always on the make...) is just who I am and I don't try to hide it when I dance.

Why do we decorate those areas heavily? Well, MAYBE it's NOT b/c he have sparkly, shiny, swishy, swirly, swooping, shall I go on fringe. Maybe it's because we play up our breasts, use our breasts as accents, use our hips as accents, swirl our hips in a suggestive manner. The very parts of our bodies we use in this dance are sexual in nature. Does that mean it's bad? NO.

I enjoy being a woman and using my body in such a femine dance. I'm glad I have big hips and big breasts. They make the dance even more femine but NOT wrong as some people around the world take it.

I'm not arguing differences with anyone, simply giving my reasons why I think our dance IS sexual.

*koff* We decorate those parts of the body because of Evol Colonialism and its codifying gaze.

But I think it's interesting to think about pre-colonial performance BD, what we know of it, and social BD. Before the invention of bedleh, as I understand it, professional dancers just wore Nice Clothes that made them look good by the fashion standards of the day.Of course they were moving their bodies in a sexually-suggestive fashion and of course a lot of them were seen as sexually available (because they were), but they weren't going "O HAI BOOBS" and "OH HAI VAJAYJAY". They were sexual but it was contained, if you like, in a normal, if nicely-presented, body. It's the same when people BD socially. They might tie something on their hips but other than that, the dancing body is an everyday body having a pleasurable experience that includes but is not limited to expressing sexuality.

I think that if you are female, BD makes you more aware of your female body because it is so torso-focused rather than feet/hands/making shapes. It would be interesting to know if men feel more conscious of being a man when BDing or not.

Originally Posted by Amber_moon

WARNING: SOCIOLOGICAL WORDY WINDBAG EVALUATION TO FOLLOW:

Well, I thought it was very well written, not the least bit wordy and, best of all, clear.

I think you should be editing most college textbooks, Amber_moon, if not writing them yourself.

Deborah

Originally Posted by Michelle75

Why do we decorate those areas heavily? Well, MAYBE it's NOT b/c he have sparkly, shiny, swishy, swirly, swooping, shall I go on fringe. Maybe it's because we play up our breasts, use our breasts as accents, use our hips as accents, swirl our hips in a suggestive manner. The very parts of our bodies we use in this dance are sexual in nature. Does that mean it's bad? NO.

I enjoy being a woman and using my body in such a femine dance. I'm glad I have big hips and big breasts. They make the dance even more femine but NOT wrong as some people around the world take it.

I'm not arguing differences with anyone, simply giving my reasons why I think our dance IS sexual.

I was agreeing with you, Michelle. That might've gotten lost in my attempt to be humorous.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

It would be interesting to know if men feel more conscious of being a man when BDing or not.

hopefully zorba or another male will chime in here...

that's a really interesting point, one i hadn't even thought of when pondering all this. while the male chest is not a sexualized as a female chest, certainly a male torso and pelvis is... random thought, not really a question...

i've heard zorba say that dancing for him is not feminine and in fact heightens his masculinity. again, i hope he will post!

Originally Posted by Vasha_Hatal

I know that a lot of dancers are hesitant to say that there is sexuality in belly dance because we dont want to be lumped in with strictly erotic dance forms, for this reason I wouldn't talk about sexuality in belly dance to a non dancer. But come on, you cant deny that belly dancers are sexy!

what do other pros and teachers think about this? not to pick on Vasha, i think a lot of dancers have this same attitude.

It's like a good book. Now, there are books that are totally about sex even when they pretend they aren't (kama Sutra is totally sex, a 'bodice-ripper' calls itself romance but is a f*** book..l;,). But, most really good novels with staying power have "sex" or at least attraction built-in somewhere: Pride and Prejudice doesn't even have a kiss, but do you doubt the intention/attraction of Liz and Mr. Darcy?

But, that's not all the book is. It's also about feelings: laughter, anger, sadness, anticipation and the whole myriad of human experience. And, if you take out the sex it's kinda boring. And if it's just sex it's equally boring.

My dance is like that. I'm not the Kama Sutra (I suppose for this audience I should reference The Perfumed Garden!) because I'm more complex than that, but I'm not Dr. Suess, either; in my 50 years I've felt and shared some sexual expressions.

So, yes, sexuality. No, not only sex.

The same is probably true of most dances, but those tend to be in a sterile, "higher art" environment (sorry, hard to express) so it's easier to push the sexuality out of the way.

Kitty

Do people find salsa, hip hop, samba, hula sexual? All of these dances use the torso and hips, kinda like bellydance. But i've never heard them described as sexual.

Originally Posted by damariz

Do people find salsa, hip hop, samba, hula sexual? All of these dances use the torso and hips, kinda like bellydance. But i've never heard them described as sexual.

Salsa and samba are definitely called sexy, and hip-hop is often called not just sexual but even sexually vulgar. I don't know if hula is often called sexual, but hula dancers are a common pin-up image, so I think that counts.

Do people find salsa, hip hop, samba, hula sexual?

Duh.

1) Fact: when I did Latin Caribbean lessons one of the chief attractants that people talked about was that it was sexy and you could dance with the opposite sex with it.
2) Fact: when the same lot of people were doing samba they just went on and on about how sexy it was
3) People who don't do it generally think tango is sexy, don't they?
4) Hip hop - depends on what's being worn but your average "video vixen" isn't exactly perceived as a dull prude, now is she.
5) Hula: google "sexy hula".

That just seems so odd to me because when I think of salsa, I think of family or a fun night with friends. But that may be because I grew up with the music.

Originally Posted by kahaz

It's like a good book. Now, there are books that are totally about sex even when they pretend they aren't (kama Sutra is totally sex, a 'bodice-ripper' calls itself romance but is a f*** book..l;,). But, most really good novels with staying power have "sex" or at least attraction built-in somewhere: Pride and Prejudice doesn't even have a kiss, but do you doubt the intention/attraction of Liz and Mr. Darcy?

But, that's not all the book is. It's also about feelings: laughter, anger, sadness, anticipation and the whole myriad of human experience. And, if you take out the sex it's kinda boring. And if it's just sex it's equally boring.

My dance is like that. I'm not the Kama Sutra (I suppose for this audience I should reference The Perfumed Garden!) because I'm more complex than that, but I'm not Dr. Suess, either; in my 50 years I've felt and shared some sexual expressions.

So, yes, sexuality. No, not only sex.

The same is probably true of most dances, but those tend to be in a sterile, "higher art" environment (sorry, hard to express) so it's easier to push the sexuality out of the way.

Kitty

This is a lovely analogy.

By the way -- and it might even be relevant, because it's been Orientalized and reduced to a base form in the same way as our dance -- the Kama Sutra is MUCH more complex than most people give it credit for.

Hula WAS a 'nudge nudge wink wink' art form. I can remember pasty white guys talking about 'hula girls' and the 'hula hula dance' when I was a girl in the 60s. I love the way it's been reclaimed as a dance that's still associated with beautiful women, glowing skin, long hair, rolling hip movements -- but it's also respected as an ethnic form. People keep telling me we can't accomplish the same thing because unlike Hula, our art form isn't respected in it's native countries. How sad.

This point struck me, because raqs sharqi/beledi are also common among friends and family in the Middle East. I've seen it at Moroccan and Egyptian wedding parties, or even sisters gathering around for a dance, or guys joking with their friends-- it's in their blood, so to speak. By wearing a hijab or covering the torso, or simply limiting it to the house or with close relatives, the "sexual" element is perceived as less.

Originally Posted by damariz

That just seems so odd to me because when I think of salsa, I think of family or a fun night with friends. But that may be because I grew up with the music.

Hula is performed by both men and women and can often be quite racy even in the original format. Hula is not just a female dance anymore than this is. And yes, I think it's sexual. So what? I don't see why everyone cares to get all up in arms about it. That is, what is so terrible about sexuality and our doing a dance that includes that? If our dance is celebratory of life and all things in it, well, that is a thing in it, and it just strikes me as prudish and bizarre to put on a bedlah and dance going *not sexy! not sexy!*. Though that could just be me.

So I recently bought the complete set of Arabesques and am slowly reading the entire run and it's amusing how many issues come up again and again over the years. I'll have to start a thread sometime.

Anyway, Bobby Farrar had an editorial in 1975 about the proliferation of "Use sexy belly dancing in the bedroom" ads and articles coming out at the time, and was defending the dance against being purely sexual.

He wrote that belly dance is a cultural expression and that, while it may be sensual in some aspects, the emphasis is on expression. He acknowledged that sex is part of the complete woman (oh 1970's speak!) so that naturally that might be expressed in dance, but that this dance was part of a larger picture of history and culture.

Just so funny that I was reading this last night and funny or exasperating that we are still discussing this 33 years later!