Thread: when to use zills/sagat in Egyptian music

So I know that zills are mostly Turkish/American but I have heard that Egyptians will sometimes play them as well. So my questions are when/where in Egyptian music would you play zills? All through? Only at the beginning? What about the Baladi parts? Would it be appropriate to zill to an Um Kalsoum song? (am I going to get axed for that?)

I am working hard on Egyptian style and I'm trying to be more appropriate with my dancing and costuming. But I like to play zills and if I were going to enter a competition and wanted to play them, would it be innapropriate to zill to an Egyptian piece? whew, that's a lot of questions. Thanks for any help ya'll.

Finger cymbals were DEFINITELY part of Egyptian dance at the beginning of the 20th century, and star dancers such as Samia Gamal always wore them in their nightclub shows. If you watch the first two dance scenes from the movie Tamra Henna, you'll see Naima Akef using them. The only reason most dancers don't use them in movie scenes is because of the logistics of movie production. (ie, people on the movie sets were noisy, so the music was usually dubbed over during the post-production phase and it was too inconvenient to get the dancer to come in and play them for the dubbing.)

Finger cymbals started falling out of favor around the time that dancers started hiring musicians to sit in the band and play for them. Dancers who lacked the skill to play them well found it easier to just pay a musician. Dancers such as Nadia Hamdi who possessed the skill would still hire the musician, but they would also play themselves to show that they were perfectly good at doing so.

By the 1980's, the dancers who possessed the skill had reached a point where they would play cymbals for part of their sets to show that they were quite capable, but they wouldn't play for the full set. For example, Nagwa Fouad, Soheir Zaki.

Today's complete lack of finger cymbals on stage has to do with the lack of zill skill of the current stars. They're still appropriate if you have the skill to play them.

Khairiyya Maazin (of the Banat Maazin Ghawazee) still ALWAYS plays them when she dances Ghawazee-style.

If you like to play them, and if you play them well, then go ahead and play them. If you're dancing to orchestrated classical music, I'd suggest silent on the light and airy parts and taqasim, but let 'em rip with heavy drums (Saidi, baladi) or other segments that give you a folkloric vibe. Think like a musician - a full Egyptian orchestra doesn't have the accordion carry the melody non-stop from beginning to end of an orchestrated piece - it takes turns with the violins, the flutes, etc. Similarly a musician wouldn't score a piece with you playing finger cymbals non-stop from beginning to end.

For competition purposes, I probably wouldn't play them. Some judges might not be educated enough to know all the stuff I said above!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k8D9gwAJes]YouTube - Fifi in Blu**The Best of Fifi Abdo[/ame]

Here's a clip of Fifi playing zills. Many dancers only play the zills during the beledi or drum section but I agree with Shira's recommendation.

I would say that Zagat is used to aknowledge that the performance has a folk dance aspect to it at the time the Zagat is utilized when dancing Egyptian style. Very few Egyptian dancers use Zagat as an instrument in their orientals these days - I would say that the switch most probably happened when Reda's work and stylization became "the norm" and base of how Egyptian dancers dance.

I often see Egyptian technique, general bellydance expression, with American Cabaret Bellydance zils/zil patterns and I automatically define it as American Cabaret Bellydance due to the contradictory use of zils to Raqs Sharki music. Not that it's wrong, it's just not Egyptian (these days).

I agree with Shira btw :)

PS, most Egyptian dancers have Zagat playing musicians in their band to play Zagat for them in the non-folklore parts of their sets.

Adding my voice in agreement. If you're going for a recognizable, authentic Egyptian performance, you'd pick up the sagat only during the beledi portion of your performance. (or, if you're just doing one number, a beledi number in a beledi dress).

However, if you play well you certainly don't have to limit yourself when you're not trying to emulate the modern Cairo style.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

However, if you play well you certainly don't have to limit yourself when you're not trying to emulate the modern Cairo style.

Whew! I'm safe then, 'cause I am definitely doing "Deborah's Version of Egyptian."

Actuallly, I don't zill much when I use Egyptian music. Well, I zill more with Egyptian music when I'm doing a gig, just because it helps up the excitement. I find that not zilling allows me to better reflect the nuances found in Egyptian (esp. orchestral) music.

Deborah

thank ya'll for the info-I have played zills only in restaurant settings (and renaissance faires) where it is fairly expected, but when I do stage shows I prefer to dance to classical Egyptian and was just wondering where they would fit in. I'm with you Deborah, I don't think I can ever be "Egyptian", just Jamie's version of... I like that!

I had always been told "don't play finger cymbals during the drum solo" because that's the drummer's turn to show off his percussion skills and your interplay with him should be through your dancing, not your playing. However, my very Egyptian Egyptian teacher does play during drum solos -- not all the way through, but definitely for part of the time. She plays with the rhythm, adds embellishments, or does a call-and-response segment with the drummer. This seems to have been typical at least when she was performing regularly as a soloist in Egypt, up through (I believe) the late 1980s to early 1990s.

As an aside, Norma - I love this video. I'm keeping it on my favorites. This has got to be a classic example of Egyptian bellydance entertainment.

Originally Posted by Zana

I had always been told "don't play finger cymbals during the drum solo" because that's the drummer's turn to show off his percussion skills and your interplay with him should be through your dancing, not your playing. However, my very Egyptian Egyptian teacher does play during drum solos -- not all the way through, but definitely for part of the time. She plays with the rhythm, adds embellishments, or does a call-and-response segment with the drummer. This seems to have been typical at least when she was performing regularly as a soloist in Egypt, up through (I believe) the late 1980s to early 1990s.

First, I'll say that I agree with EVERYthing Shira said. To add to Zana's comments, zills (sagat) are still being played by some Egyptian dancers today, sometimes during and as part of the percussion part of their performances, and often during orientale and folklore sections of their shows.

As for Egyptian/orientale pieces, yes, play them, but as Shira says, play like a musician, a member of the band.

Just got back from the Amar Gamal workshop in St John (fabulous fun, BTW!). I had accepted challenges from some friends to dance Egyptian Cab style-for a change! I'm an old-school American Classical Orientale Vintage Fusion (or whatever the latest terminology is for the style of dance that I started in umtpeen years ago) so my biggest challenge, aside from picking the music was getting the Turk out!

I also decided to leave out the zills. I was in the last set when it dawned on me that no one, including Amar, was going to play them. So, I did.

I'm not letting the art of finger cymbals die! Acutally, it worked out quite well. Woke the audience right up, got them involved and interested (audiences love zills.)

So, in my observation: they work when you play them well. Even in Egyptian. Good enough for Fifi......

Kitty

What I have observed in my area (and what I do) is that the Egyptian style dancers pull out the finger cymbals for their audience interaction piece.

I love zagats. As for when to play them, it depends on the music for me. Examples of song I would not play to: Alf lay la, Enta omri, and Ental Hob. Song that I play to: Aziza, Zaina and Arabic pop.

Though I use to be a firm believer of not playing with drum solos, I've changed this view. Especially with my training with Suhaila, who uses a lot of zagats in her drum solo's.

Where I stand the line in not playing to drum solo's is when I have a live musician. The only exception for this is if you were to choreo a drum solo with the musician with a lead and response? I'm not sure what the term is. The drummer plays and then you respond by imitating his rythm. I need more coffee cause my brain is still a sleep.....,s::

Language note: As in the title of this thread, the word is "sagat" not "zagat" pr "zagats".

On playing sagat with a live drummer during a drum solo: You should ALWAYS ask the drummer BEFORE your show if it's ok with him/her for you to play your cymbals during his/her drum solo. If the drummer says no or he/she would rather that you wouldn't play, then respect his/her wishes. If you are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to plan the drum solo with the drummer and maybe even rehearse, then it can be a wonderful experience. See the last 2 or 3 minutes of my YouTube video [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3_14kEZSaU]YouTube - Leyla Lanty & Khamis Henkesh Ahlan Wa Sahlan 2007[/ame] for what can happen if you can plan ahead.

A dance friend recently mentioned that she had been told by another dancer that it is bad etiquette to play finger cymbals while dancing to music with singing. Is this a universal truth, or does it depend on the circumstances?

I always thought it was okay to play as long as you didn't drown out the singer, and you kept with the dynamics of the music (i.e., you didn't keep clopping along during the mawaal). I can also see some people saying that it would be disrespectful to be clattering over the top of an Umm Kalthoum record, but something less "reverent" like a hopped up, Eurodisco, Arabic pop song would be okay to play along with.

Can anybody confirm this?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

A dance friend recently mentioned that she had been told by another dancer that it is bad etiquette to play finger cymbals while dancing to music with singing. Is this a universal truth, or does it depend on the circumstances?

I always thought it was okay to play as long as you didn't drown out the singer, and you kept with the dynamics of the music (i.e., you didn't keep clopping along during the mawaal). I can also see some people saying that it would be disrespectful to be clattering over the top of an Umm Kalthoum record, but something less "reverent" like a hopped up, Eurodisco, Arabic pop song would be okay to play along with. Can anybody confirm this?

If you dance to an Om Kalthoum song, live or recorded, as a rule of thumb, it's better not to play. If the recording is an instrumental version of an upbeat Om Kalthoum song (i.e. no singer), it's ok to play. Of course, as you said, you wouldn't be playing along during a mawal or other really slow emotional part of a song.

Professional Arab musicians with whom I've been playing zills and duff (frame drum) over the last 10 years have advised me that it's ok to zill while the singer is singing as well as during musical interludes. However, when the singer is singing, you must play quietly so you don't overpower him or her, which would be rude! It is also considered rude if you play louder than any of the other musicians at any time during a music piece. You have to always be aware of what and how the musicians are playing throughout any song to which you want to play zills. As you said, you need to be aware of the dynamics of the music. This rule applies to musicians on recordings too...g.:

Yes, Eurodisco, Arabic and Turkish pop are always safe for zilling...g.:

Thanks for the feedback, Leyla. I will pass it on to the others who were in on the discussion. What you've said pretty much confirms what I've thought all along: there's only one hard-and-fast rule for playing zills...DON'T PLAY THEM BADLY.

In other words:
- Don't play so loudly that you drown out what you're supposed to be accompanying.
- Play along WITH the music, not in spite of it.
- And for heaven's sake, stay on the beat! It's better to play fewer strokes in tempo than to make a mess of a more complicated rhythm.

excellent advice from everyone. I am surprised to find out that so few Egyptian dancers play sagat. One thing I remember reading or hearing mentioned is that Egyptian sagat players play to the beat whereas Turkish zill players play to the melody. Is that accurate? anyone?

Originally Posted by jamielynn

excellent advice from everyone. I am surprised to find out that so few Egyptian dancers play sagat. One thing I remember reading or hearing mentioned is that Egyptian sagat players play to the beat whereas Turkish zill players play to the melody. Is that accurate? anyone?

Egyptian sagat/zill players do not restrict their playing "to the beat". They play what sounds good and enhances the music, which means sometimes to the beat and other times to the melody or between melodic phrases often within the same musical piece or song. I'm not very knowledgable about what Turkish zill/sagat players do.