Thread: Historical dance, SCA, etc.

I am curious as to how many bhuzzers also do the SCA dance thing. I know Asim does { hi, Asim!!! }

What do you think about trying to recreate a moving art from static historical sources?

How about historically accurate costuming? Is it feasible?

Trying to generate some discussion and contribute so we have more discussion topics amongst the swap meet threads.

Discuss. { "hello, I'm Linda Richman and this is 'Coffee Talk' " }

I belong to the SCA and am dancing at some events to =) I have a gypsy persona so the costuming is fun too!I picked a gypsy to incorporate my dancing into my persona.Sometimes its hard to be totally accurate,unless you make the clothes yourself.Which I do not!

When I started it was hard to find older music to try & be authentic with the time period.But lucky me,a very good friend also a dancer ,but long time SCA member helped me out some.

I dance at SCA events and I find there are varying theories on what is "authentic" and what isn't. I have chosen to transcend what I find in Persian and Ottoman paintings, since I think arts back then were as limiting as they are today. One SCAer made a good point in saying that you'll never see a hip hop dancer in a modern painting!

I've chosen an Andalusian persona-- my own interpretation of it, gathering what I like of Middle Eastern and Flamenco styles, since we can only speculate what actually existed back then because of the lack of evidence on the dress/dance from that period. It could have been any range of mixes between Spanish, Arabic, Jewish, and gypsy. Most dancers of the medieval age were slave women, typically not the subjects of paintings.

Some SCAers have disputed my philosophy, but I don't feel the necessity to sacrifice aesthetics for "historical accuracy" (or what is accepted as accuracy). I think the main point of these events is a historical "flavor," which can still be maintained with a costume and music that are personally expressive.

There's a big discussion on these matters on the SCA ME dance tribe on tribe.net, in case anyone is further interested...

Originally Posted by lallakahina

Some SCAers have disputed my philosophy, but I don't feel the necessity to sacrifice aesthetics for "historical accuracy" (or what is accepted as accuracy). I think the main point of these events is a historical "flavor," which can still be maintained with a costume and music that are personally expressive.

There's a big discussion on these matters on the SCA ME dance tribe on tribe.net, in case anyone is further interested...

I agree with you on this Lallakahina. ..g.: Only I also believe in figuring in practicality and comfort. High 90's and humid means "dress for comfort" to me. AND dancing around a hot, hot fire also means "dress for comfort and movement".
Pennsic is the only event I go to. If most of my efforts weren't needed towards dancing in my every day life, and if I had time to attend more events I'd spend more time (and money) on historically accurate garb. For now I have "flavored" garb, and reading everything I can get my hands on about the dance.

Originally Posted by Halima-Dances

I am curious as to how many bhuzzers also do the SCA dance thing. I know Asim does { hi, Asim!!! }

What do you think about trying to recreate a moving art from static historical sources?

How about historically accurate costuming? Is it feasible?

Hey Halima!

Yeah, I know it's possible. It's possible because I have a pattern from a new source for a 16th Century Ottoman Dancers outfit, from a source I consider trusty worthy (and who used a bit of my research):

https://www.reconstructinghistory.co...q=1&p=420&w=21

Among other things, its the only outfit we've found in 1000+ years of raqs history research that has any evidence for being a "dancer-specific" outfit -- and that's mostly just due to the fustan, or skirt.

But the core point is that for 90% of SCA Mid-East history, people danced in the clothing they wore day-to-day; there's a good bit of evidence, such as in the work Music in the World of Islam, that the vast majority of dancing was social, not professional. There's plenty enough research on that that anyone wanting to dress to do SCA can find and use, as a general rule.

As far as reconstruction from a sstatic source -- do you mean images? Illuminations, paintings? If so, I'd be...wary. During my dance hiatus, I did a lot of dance photography, and one of the things that struck me was how much of the dance I would insert into watching my stills, how much of it was coming not from what was in the images, but from my memory of the show, as well as my knowledge of the dance (which I used to anticipate good shots, for example).
Without some kind of back-filling knowledge -- written descriptions, for example -- it's easy to take a set of still images, and "plug in" any number of ideas as to how they link together w/o any idea how it happened "back then". It could be done correctly, to be certain, yet I'd like to see more than that at a go for re-creating period dance.
I tend to recommend the reading of the section in Dr. Anthoy Shay's CHOREOPHOBIA where he breaks down some of his concerns about how people take Persian minatures and try to reproduce Persian dance from them. I think he overstates his point to some extent, but his issues with the symbolism of period illumnations are one of many good point she makes in that discussion. And it's a good book overall for this kind of research.

CHOREOPHOBIA, along with a bunch of other books I've found to be pretty historically-sound, are on an Amazon Listmania I did awhile back. I recommend it for some books on the history of this dance, even though many aren't specific to SCA. That is a different topic...but I should likely add MUSIC IN...to that list, as well.

If you opt to do Ottoman or Persian, fairly accurate garb is not only feasible, its relatively simple if you can sew at all. There are extant coats, pants, and other items, as well as a number of paintings and written sources.

Not everyone, however, chooses to pursue that route. As a general rule, if you dont stand out in a crowd by wearing a modern Egyptian costume or Melodias, you will be accepted in most circles as someone making an "attempt" and that is all that's required in the SCA.

Alot of dancers start out with things they might already have, Ghawazee coats, harem pants, Ren faire attire. . . and then the costuming bug bites and the go the next step and get hooked on recreating the past in more depth. Others dont find costuming to be their niche and thats fine too. There are different things for different people and as long as one is respectful of the general atmosphere, almost everyone can get along and play the game together (yes, you always have someone who is unhappy with someone else. . . but that goes for any hobby).

I, personally, lean strongly towards authenticity - but at very small events that are mostly my own Household (or that cater to more than an SCA crowd), or around bonfires at Pennsic, I dig out my favorite tribal and fantasy gear and have fun with that because it "works" for those places.

As for recreating the movement - there are some people who teach classes based on their interpretation of the moves in the handful of historic resources we have. In general, most types of bellydance can be seen at regular events - cabaret, folkloric and tribal simply because we dont have alot in the way of resources for re-created what occurred in the past.

Again, its all a matter of enjoying the atmosphere provided by the host of the specific event, without disturbing it.

"What do you think about trying to recreate a moving art from static historical sources?

How about historically accurate costuming? Is it feasible?"

The first dance company I was in, Sahnobar, does the Hoggetowne Medieval Faire every year.
We chose the ghawazee coats over tunics and harem pants, coin hipscarves, and fake braided hair w/little hats.
One year we wore Turkish vests over sheer tunics, and one year more "fantasy" with the Turkish vests, sheer sleeves, and bare belly. They have also done Tunisian dances with Tunisian costuming.

Here's an excerpt from the Sahnobar website: "We developed three sets of costuming and dances specifically for performing at Renaissance and Medieval Faires. We re-created two costumes of the Egyptian Ghawazee (street dancers) from the 18th and 19th centuries, and Tunisian (North African) village garb which has changed little over the past millenium. Although it is difficult to know exactly what dances of these periods looked like, we have tried to come up with a group of dances which we hope captures the atmosphere of those times. These are performed to live music played by our band."
Sahnobar Dance Styles
Hope that helps!

Lovely costumes!

Originally Posted by MelanieLA

"What do you think about trying to recreate a moving art from static historical sources?

How about historically accurate costuming? Is it feasible?"

The first dance company I was in, Sahnobar, does the Hoggetowne Medieval Faire every year.
We chose the ghawazee coats over tunics and harem pants, coin hipscarves, and fake braided hair w/little hats.
One year we wore Turkish vests over sheer tunics, and one year more "fantasy" with the Turkish vests, sheer sleeves, and bare belly. They have also done Tunisian dances with Tunisian costuming.

Here's an excerpt from the Sahnobar website: "We developed three sets of costuming and dances specifically for performing at Renaissance and Medieval Faires. We re-created two costumes of the Egyptian Ghawazee (street dancers) from the 18th and 19th centuries, and Tunisian (North African) village garb which has changed little over the past millenium. Although it is difficult to know exactly what dances of these periods looked like, we have tried to come up with a group of dances which we hope captures the atmosphere of those times. These are performed to live music played by our band."
Sahnobar Dance Styles
Hope that helps!

I think that the effect is all. The individual pieces may be from varios locations and times. This is a modern Pakistani top combined with cotton Flying Skirts pantaloons and an antique assuit tunic with an Afgani belt I made. I assume trade routes when I assemble a costume.



More Persian in flavor

Thanks Lallakahina :)!

Thank you for your beautiful photos, Anala! I agree--effect is all. Gotta come back to talk about that more:-)

we are a ren faire guild.we are gypsys, to follow my moorish blood.i think the rules are differant, i know SCA does not have mundanes.we use faire for the other side of what we do, and it's like getting paid to advertise our school and agency.

Originally Posted by Halima-Dances

What do you think about trying to recreate a moving art from static historical sources

Impossible if you mean miniatures and statues. Most written descriptions are equally useless. Videography was very lacking during 600-1600! Suggestions of movements mean nothing if they have no musical context. We can make educated guesses based in folkdance, eliminating known modern elements, wearing period garments to dance in, and dancing to period music.

Originally Posted by Halima-Dances

How about historically accurate costuming? Is it feasible?

Yes. There are paintings and extant garments available for study. A close fitting hirka is very comforable to dance in.

I was just rereading this thread as I was thinking about what to make for ren faire this year. While I'd love to drop $100 on patterns from Reconstructing History... I'm going to Bristol Ren Faire, not a SCA event like Pennsic. As far as I can tell, just incorporating a ghawazee coat into an outfit makes me more period at Bristol than half the people dressed up there (with the gothwear, the generic pirates, the fairy wings, chainmail bikinis, et cetera).

In other words, I think in some events it's enough to "make an attempt" even if you can't do the research and "do it all." Garb critics at a ren faire would have collective heart attacks and keel over.

Originally Posted by zamora

we are a ren faire guild.we are gypsys, to follow my moorish blood.i think the rules are differant, i know SCA does not have mundanes.we use faire for the other side of what we do, and it's like getting paid to advertise our school and agency.

MUNDANES !! Haven't heard that term in years. I was a SF nerd. "Oh we never see her anymore....she's dating a Mundane".

OOooOOO that's like a "muggle" LOL