Thread: Kick-butt Letter to the Editor on the Dance

I've not seen Andrea Deagon in years and years, so it was a pleasant surprise when my Twitter feed that searchers for "belly dance" stuff popped up a link to this Letter to the Editor. Regarding an article on Burlesque that apparently (once again...*Sigh*) conflated us with them, she defends our art well:

Belly dance is the performance manifestation of a kind of social dancing that is done throughout the Middle East on festive occasions by men and women of all ages. As professional performance, both in the Arab world and for many of the Americans who pursue the art (as I have for over 30 years), belly dance celebrates emotional and sensual experience, and at the same time is intimately intertwined with the emotive complexities of Arabic music.

It's short, but I do recommend a read. :)

ETA: Thanks to SteffiB for finding the original article.

Thank you for sharing this. I am comparatively new to BD and I am already tired of hearing it compared with Burley.

Compared in what way? As in, they are the same dance? (They aren't) Or that they share some aspects in common? (They do, at least as practiced here in the US)

"Belly dancing is the gateway drug to burlesque." - Wilmington cafe adds burlesque to show list | StarNewsOnline.com | Star-News | Wilmington, NC

Originally Posted by steffib

"Belly dancing is the gateway drug to burlesque." - Wilmington cafe adds burlesque to show list | StarNewsOnline.com | Star-News | Wilmington, NC

Wow, I have been doing this belly dance thing for a long time and, so far, have managed to keep all my clothes on in public! I must have amazing will power. How are the rest of you managing to stay so strong in the face of the temptation to bare it all?

</sarcasm>

Ridiculous. One woman's anecdotal tale, however interesting and titillating it might be, becomes a news story with "facts" about belly dance. Asim, thanks for sharing Andrea's great letter. Go Andrea D!

Andrea is so well-spoken and clear on this subject. She's great.

Originally Posted by steffib

"Belly dancing is the gateway drug to burlesque." - Wilmington cafe adds burlesque to show list | StarNewsOnline.com | Star-News | Wilmington, NC

As in all gateway drugs, it only leads to the harder stuff if you have a pre-existing proclivity.

Originally Posted by steffib

"Belly dancing is the gateway drug to burlesque." - Wilmington cafe adds burlesque to show list | StarNewsOnline.com | Star-News | Wilmington, NC

Thanks for that link! I dug around the newspaper site for 15 minutes trying to find the original story....

Yay for Andrea - though I do wish she had not used the term "authentic" because a burlesque performer's experience and job is just as authentically artistic as anybody else's. It's just different to ours.

I want to know who that 55 year old modestly gowned woman shimmying to 700 enraptured Arab and European Americans was. I'm guessing it was in the US given the audience makeup and am going to suspect....

.... Cassandra at that thingy she was at recently where everyone oohed and ahhed about her taqsim!

Apols for DP, but I think this quote from the original article sums it up beautifully:

"Belly dancing's always been pretty sensual to me, but burlesque to me is really more about tapping into that frisky sexual side rather than the, like, deep, earthy sexy side. I like that aspect of it because you can just get a little freakier and you can do a lot more different things."

Not the same thing at all. I suspect the "gateway drug" thing is slightly true though, because BD as we experience it allows women to get a lot more comfortable with showing their bodies in a sensual manner to begin with. Then, burlesque allows them to go further if they wish, but still provides a separation from Oh No Stripping. (And it should. Stripping is some people's living and it would be awful if a bunch of BDers seeking something more frisky ended up taking business away from those women with "just for fun" shows with a small door charge...)

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

As in all gateway drugs, it only leads to the harder stuff if you have a pre-existing proclivity.

Actually, I think that has some truth.

Many of my friends who've drifted into the Burlesque thing I admire as artists -- yet they oftentimes got into the dance because it allowed them to express the more sensual part of themselves on stage. I also know some who stared with teachers who didn't have much background in the history/culture for the form, and that affected their student's views...

But all that means they see Burlesque as another, more intense layer upon that earlier training. Also, because Burlesque is more...acceptable in mainstream culture (ironic, no?), it's easier in some ways to get and maintain an audience. That can easily affect someone who's looking to dance.

I don't want to dismiss their artistic ventures. I'm not even strongly interested in the "never the twain shall meet at a show" mode of thought. I'm far more interested in ensuring that we keep educating "our" dancers, and allowing knowledge to overcome such opinions that might induce such articles. Shows that have both, should delineate the differences clearly and strongly -- and that takes more knowledge than some "belyl dance' teachers provide, these days. :(

I don't want to dismiss their artistic ventures. I'm not even strongly interested in the "never the twain shall meet at a show" mode of thought. I'm far more interested in ensuring that we keep educating "our" dancers, and allowing knowledge to overcome such opinions that might induce such articles. Shows that have both, should delineate the differences clearly and strongly -- and that takes more knowledge than some "belyl dance' teachers provide, these days.

I agree. My own teacher performs both belly dance and burlesque. As a result, she has been able to discuss and demonstrate the relationships (and non-relationships) between the two forms with her belly dance students in an informed and informative manner.

I personally feel that my own belly dancing has benefited enormously from a greater understanding, both of how burlesque differs (especially in terms of the quality and projection of the moves and in the fact that it it is frequently intended to parody) but also of how the two forms have some shared aspects.

Just to clarify - she does not teach us burlesque in her bellydance classes but she does frequently discuss and demonstrate aspects of burlesque as as a 'compare and contrast exercise'.

There is not the faintest slightest connection between Burlesque and Egyptian style belly dance. (I know a little about the connections Americans make with their scene)
Here in Europe as in the ME there is none.
The two are connected only in the fact that are entertainment and they can be done well and ..the opposite.
There said enough.... sorry..and I like good burlesque just hate it being blended with the dance I love and appreciate as being from someone else's culture. And I don't think they would appreciate it either.

There is not the faintest slightest connection between Burlesque and Egyptian style belly dance. (I know a little about the connections Americans make with their scene)
Here in Europe as in the ME there is none.

I'm not qualified Liz to speak on the exact relationship/non-relationship between the two but what I have been told and shown is there are some moves in both forms which have similar terminology or that are presented similarly. When you get down to it, the finer points of the way they are executed are different but to a novice eye they could be seen as similar and that is what my teacher sometimes discusses with us.

She also talks about the history of both dances on the stage in the west because belly dance a la 'Little Egypt' etc was showcased in a similar context in the aftermath of the World Fair.

Originally Posted by steffib

"Belly dancing is the gateway drug to burlesque." - Wilmington cafe adds burlesque to show list | StarNewsOnline.com | Star-News | Wilmington, NC

This is why I stopped going to the Juggling Gypsy. 4 or 5 years ago, it was a place where bellydance performance was treated respectfully. Now, it is a dive full of screaming, drunken disrespectful idiots. I was apalled at the behavior of the audience (almost entirely men) the last time I went there. The dancers sit around in their costumes drinking beer after performing, no coverups, etc. It was not a very nice environment.

Originally Posted by khadiya

I'm not qualified Liz to speak on the exact relationship/non-relationship between the two but what I have been told and shown is there are some moves in both forms which have similar terminology or that are presented similarly. When you get down to it, the finer points of the way they are executed are different but to a novice eye they could be seen as similar and that is what my teacher sometimes discusses with us.

She also talks about the history of both dances on the stage in the west because belly dance a la 'Little Egypt' etc was showcased in a similar context in the aftermath of the World Fair.

One original Burlesque troupe were British and they toured the US before Chicago . yea the hoochie coochie girls come from that era Post-Chichago but this has nothing to do with how belly dance developed in Egypt, Turkey and the rest of the ME nor what was to happen in Europe post WW2.
The similarities are maybe there in the US and in that both dances can be very sexy ( and rightly so) but belly dancers do NOT strip and although burlesque don't always, many do.
Egyptian belly dancers even avoid veil work in case that is taken for stripping so I'm told. No to those of us who have learnt Egyptian BD..there is NO connection what so ever!T
hey are entertainments that can be great fun and I love them both..I just don't want to see burlesque popping up and sharing our stage. I am not fearful of those who burlesque well and in a classy way ( as your teacher does) but terrified by some examples I see.

One original Burlesque troupe were British and they toured the US before Chicago . yea the hoochie coochie girls come from that era Post-Chichago but this has nothing to do with how belly dance developed in Egypt, Turkey and the rest of the ME nor what was to happen in Europe post WW2.
The similarities are maybe there in the US and in that both dances can be very sexy ( and rightly so) but belly dancers do NOT strip and although burlesque don't always, many do.
Egyptian belly dancers even avoid veil work in case that is taken for stripping so I'm told. No to those of us who have learnt Egyptian BD..there is NO connection what so ever!T

Yes, this is my understanding.

I was probably wrong to use the word 'relationship' in discussing burley and bellydance. To clarify: what I have been shown/taught is that there are a few aspects of both dances that could potentially be seen/misconstrued as intrinsically related but that this is not the case and why.

In terms of the theatrical aspect what I have read/been told is about the historical burley scene in the west and how some aspects/derivations of belly dance were framed in this context post Chicago World Fair.

One original Burlesque troupe were British and they toured the US before Chicago

There were quite a few British burlesque dancers and troops who went over to the US (and to other countries) to perform prior to the world fair. It was also known for entertainers from the US to come over here to train and practice in some of the London Theaters such as the Gaiety, which specialised in Burlesque

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Compared in what way? As in, they are the same dance? (They aren't) Or that they share some aspects in common? (They do, at least as practiced here in the US)

Not so much that they are the same dance but that BD is just one step away. Such as the reference that it is the gateway drug. I am sure that for these women, they did BD first and then went over to Burley but did BD cause it because it is so similar? I don't think so. I have just noticed that some people mention the two in the same breath as though they are connected with one another. That is all I meant.

Originally Posted by Linnyg

Not so much that they are the same dance but that BD is just one step away. Such as the reference that it is the gateway drug. I am sure that for these women, they did BD first and then went over to Burley but did BD cause it because it is so similar? I don't think so. I have just noticed that some people mention the two in the same breath as though they are connected with one another. That is all I meant.

Honestly, I CAN see BD as a gateway drug to Burley, but maybe moreso because there's more freedom in Burly as opposed to belly dance. What if you got into belly dance because you liked the costumes, the movements, the ability to pick up a dance form in your adult years, etc, and then found the particulars of belly dance too inhibitive for you, or found that you enjoyed moving to western music more than middle eastern music?

For some people who've done belly dance, it may be that they find a better fit of hobby to personal likes and talents in burlesque rather than belly dance.

There are a lot of us who are traditionalists, and who frown on people getting too creative with belly dance. It may be that they find an outlet for their creativity that better clicks with their personality in Burlesque.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Honestly, I CAN see BD as a gateway drug to Burley, but maybe moreso because there's more freedom in Burly as opposed to belly dance. What if you got into belly dance because you liked the costumes, the movements, the ability to pick up a dance form in your adult years, etc, and then found the particulars of belly dance too inhibitive for you, or found that you enjoyed moving to western music more than middle eastern music?

For some people who've done belly dance, it may be that they find a better fit of hobby to personal likes and talents in burlesque rather than belly dance.

There are a lot of us who are traditionalists, and who frown on people getting too creative with belly dance. It may be that they find an outlet for their creativity that better clicks with their personality in Burlesque.

And that's great. Notice that THTX offered that BD and Burlesque are two entirely different things and, rightly so, are identified by different names.

So why is it so hard to do this same thing with *fusion* dance? Why do we persist in calling (some) of it BD when it isn't really BD anymore?

Oops. .w.:

<runs away>

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

And that's great. Notice that THTX offered that BD and Burlesque are two entirely different things and, rightly so, are identified by different names.

So why is it so hard to do this same thing with *fusion* dance? Why do we persist in calling (some) of it BD when it isn't really BD anymore?

Oops. .w.:

<runs away>

Deborah

Are you trying to pick a fight? Just kidding!

Originally Posted by khadiya

There were quite a few British burlesque dancers and troops who went over to the US (and to other countries) to perform prior to the world fair. It was also known for entertainers from the US to come over here to train and practice in some of the London Theaters such as the Gaiety, which specialised in Burlesque

Y-you mean... British people did something first?!?!?!?!?!?!

If we would ever get away from thinking there are some handful of "Belly Dance Moves" we wouldn't have problems with the lines blurring.

One of the things I'm starting to tell me students early on is this:
There is no such thing as a "Belly Dance Move."

A hip circle is a hip circle is a hip circle.
If it's done in one context to one kind of music, it's salsa. If it's done in another context to different music, it's hula. Another context and music, it's Bulgarian folk dance. Another context and another music, it's belly dance.


As to the article, I'm going to be blunt: Belly dance helps some women to shed some of their inhibitions. But then so does a pottery class. For some people, a divorce has the same liberating effect.

Once they've been "liberated," some women feel the need to push against the mainstream boundaries and be "edgy" in their own way. It isn't belly dance or pottery or divorce that really CAUSES this, but they probably are the catalysts. And in some cases, our American sense of entitlement leads people to make performance decisions based on what THEY want RIGHT NOW, rather than taking into consideration the bigger picture or other artists in the same medium.

(begin flames now.)

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Y-you mean... British people did something first?!?!?!?!?!?!

gerrr...offfffffffffff wid ya..we is genius at being second!

Originally Posted by aziyade

If we would ever get away from thinking there are some handful of "Belly Dance Moves" we wouldn't have problems with the lines blurring.

One of the things I'm starting to tell me students early on is this:
There is no such thing as a "Belly Dance Move."

A hip circle is a hip circle is a hip circle.
If it's done in one context to one kind of music, it's salsa. If it's done in another context to different music, it's hula. Another context and music, it's Bulgarian folk dance. Another context and another music, it's belly dance.


As to the article, I'm going to be blunt: Belly dance helps some women to shed some of their inhibitions. But then so does a pottery class. For some people, a divorce has the same liberating effect.

Once they've been "liberated," some women feel the need to push against the mainstream boundaries and be "edgy" in their own way. It isn't belly dance or pottery or divorce that really CAUSES this, but they probably are the catalysts. And in some cases, our American sense of entitlement leads people to make performance decisions based on what THEY want RIGHT NOW, rather than taking into consideration the bigger picture or other artists in the same medium.

(begin flames now.)

No flames here. I think you make a great point.

Originally Posted by Linnyg

Are you trying to pick a fight? Just kidding!

Moi??? ,r:;

Actually, as I was reading THTX's post, it suddenly occured to me how this BD-into-Burlesque fits perfectly with BD-into-Fusion (well, fusion that seems outside BD but is still called BD).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using one's BD training and morphing it into (intelligent) fusion just as there is nothing wrong with starting with BD and deciding to do burlie.

It's just that sticky naming issue! When the fusion one sees really no longer looks like BD, but is still doggedly holding onto the BD designation, I start getting concerned. I am all for a title like "World Dance Fusion" or something similar, just take BD out of it. I also think that BDers who also burlie should have two entirely different websites. If I were both a flamenco dancer and a belly dancer, I would have different sites -- just makes sense to me.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Bhuzzing.

Deborah

Originally Posted by aziyade

If we would ever get away from thinking there are some handful of "Belly Dance Moves" we wouldn't have problems with the lines blurring.

One of the things I'm starting to tell me students early on is this:
There is no such thing as a "Belly Dance Move."

A hip circle is a hip circle is a hip circle.
If it's done in one context to one kind of music, it's salsa. If it's done in another context to different music, it's hula. Another context and music, it's Bulgarian folk dance. Another context and another music, it's belly dance.


As to the article, I'm going to be blunt: Belly dance helps some women to shed some of their inhibitions. But then so does a pottery class. For some people, a divorce has the same liberating effect.

Once they've been "liberated," some women feel the need to push against the mainstream boundaries and be "edgy" in their own way. It isn't belly dance or pottery or divorce that really CAUSES this, but they probably are the catalysts. And in some cases, our American sense of entitlement leads people to make performance decisions based on what THEY want RIGHT NOW, rather than taking into consideration the bigger picture or other artists in the same medium.

(begin flames now.)

No flames from me, either! Well said.

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Moi??? ,r:;

Actually, as I was reading THTX's post, it suddenly occured to me how this BD-into-Burlesque fits perfectly with BD-into-Fusion (well, fusion that seems outside BD but is still called BD).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using one's BD training and morphing it into (intelligent) fusion just as there is nothing wrong with starting with BD and deciding to do burlie.

It's just that sticky naming issue! When the fusion one sees really no longer looks like BD, but is still doggedly holding onto the BD designation, I start getting concerned. I am all for a title like "World Dance Fusion" or something similar, just take BD out of it. I also think that BDers who also burlie should have two entirely different websites. If I were both a flamenco dancer and a belly dancer, I would have different sites -- just makes sense to me.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Bhuzzing.

Deborah

Oh, I totally agree with that, too. If I were to do both, I'd for sure have a separate website.