Thread: Men & Shamadan?

I saw a photo in the NY Times from the Marc Jacobs holiday party last year....and there were men with shamadans, as well as a belly dancer. I've only ever seen women with them before--is this something usual? (ps, seemed like a ridiculous party!)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/24/bu...html?th&emc=th

I am pretty sure that Zorba has one.

Adam Basma has (err...had?) one. For a while all female performers were banned in Cairo and the boys took over the jobs. They must have used them for weddings, no?

Originally Posted by mish_mish

I am pretty sure that Zorba has one.

I know Adam Basma dances with one, at least one other male I've seen dances with one (but can't remember who right now). This is me with my old one:



A couple more Shemdan pix in my Bhuz gallery...

As for "is it usual?". No. Is it unheard of? No. One of my instructors lived and danced in Egypt and she told me that she saw males with them there - but what the context was I don't know.

I know most males won't touch one because of the historically "feminine" origins - for instance Horacio has a rather good Shemadan video - but when it comes time to actually perform his choreo, he uses a candle tray. Whatever - my male bits didn't suddenly fall off because I decided to dance with a candelabrum on my head! ..l;,

LOL @ Zorba!

I'm not sure, but I think the Ghawazee were banned from Cairo in the first half of the 19th century. Didn't Shamadan as a tradition start much later, like the 1920s? Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong!

But since men do the Moroccan tea tray, etc. and it's such a manly acrobatic feat to balance (seems like an instinct in boys of a certain age to want to juggle and balance everything in sight), it seems very natural and manly to see them doing it. The element of danger and fire (another thing all boys seem interested in by instinct at a certain age...) makes it even more naturally masculine, I think.

Well, that and the candlelight reflected on their sweaty bare chests... yeah, I think I like the male shamadan dancers. :tongue:

(assuming Zorba's right and their manly bits haven't fallen off, of course).

Oh, sorry.. was I objectifying the bellydancers again? Shame on me!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I'm not sure, but I think the Ghawazee were banned from Cairo in the first half of the 19th century. Didn't Shamadan as a tradition start much later, like the 1920s?

good point! they just had candles not candelabra at the time, eh? when did the boys become passe?

has Reda ever been spotted with one?

Nope, Reda or men from his troupe did never dance with a shamadan. The girls however, did/do.

Originally Posted by nasila

good point! they just had candles not candelabra at the time, eh? when did the boys become passe?

has Reda ever been spotted with one?

Boys became passe when English, French and the occasional American tourist watched some hot young hotties dancing lasciviously in the streets in their queer and animalistic Oriental fashion, phwoar, and then went "OH NOE!" when they realised the hot young hotties were in fact young men. "But you said you didn't like the dancing girls! That's why we kicked them out of Cairo!" said the Egyptian authorities. "EW NO BOYS!!" said the colonial invaders. "GIRLS ONLY PLZ, but please put them in cafes like civilised people! Thank goodness we are here to teach you proper ways! Perhaps one day if you become enough like us we will set you free. Btw, please to be putting the hot young girls in more revealing costumes like the sexy ones they have in India."

A bit later:

Badia Masabni et al: "Hey, let's put on a show right here that is more sophisticated, with ballet in it, not like that beledi rubbish! With pretty girls, as is proper and good! Composers, start creating awesome music for us please!"

A bit later yet:

Mahmoud Reda et al: "Hey, let's put on a show right here! In fact, let's just do 'On the Town' only in an Egyptian setting! Farida, put on this melaya and pretend to be beledi but in a totally wholesome way. Boys, jump around masculinely like Gene Kelly!"

And so oriental dance was born and raised.

Disclaimer: not peer reviewed.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Boys became passe when English, French and the occasional American tourist watched some hot young hotties dancing lasciviously in the streets in their queer and animalistic Oriental fashion, phwoar, and then went "OH NOE!" when they realised the hot young hotties were in fact young men. "But you said you didn't like the dancing girls! That's why we kicked them out of Cairo!" said the Egyptian authorities. "EW NO BOYS!!" said the colonial invaders. "GIRLS ONLY PLZ, but please put them in cafes like civilised people! Thank goodness we are here to teach you proper ways! Perhaps one day if you become enough like us we will set you free. Btw, please to be putting the hot young girls in more revealing costumes like the sexy ones they have in India."

A bit later:

Badia Masabni et al: "Hey, let's put on a show right here that is more sophisticated, with ballet in it, not like that beledi rubbish! With pretty girls, as is proper and good! Composers, start creating awesome music for us please!"

A bit later yet:

Mahmoud Reda et al: "Hey, let's put on a show right here! In fact, let's just do 'On the Town' only in an Egyptian setting! Farida, put on this melaya and pretend to be beledi but in a totally wholesome way. Boys, jump around masculinely like Gene Kelly!"

And so oriental dance was born and raised.

Disclaimer: not peer reviewed.

Well folks if you were thinking of writing the definative history of belly dance, Zum has just blown it for you!..g.:..g.:

Boys became passe when English, French and the occasional American tourist watched some hot young hotties dancing lasciviously in the streets in their queer and animalistic Oriental fashion, phwoar, and then went "OH NOE!" when they realised the hot young hotties were in fact young men. "But you said you didn't like the dancing girls! That's why we kicked them out of Cairo!" said the Egyptian authorities. "EW NO BOYS!!" said the colonial invaders. "GIRLS ONLY PLZ, but please put them in cafes like civilised people! Thank goodness we are here to teach you proper ways! Perhaps one day if you become enough like us we will set you free. Btw, please to be putting the hot young girls in more revealing costumes like the sexy ones they have in India."

A bit later:

Badia Masabni et al: "Hey, let's put on a show right here that is more sophisticated, with ballet in it, not like that beledi rubbish! With pretty girls, as is proper and good! Composers, start creating awesome music for us please!"

A bit later yet:

Mahmoud Reda et al: "Hey, let's put on a show right here! In fact, let's just do 'On the Town' only in an Egyptian setting! Farida, put on this melaya and pretend to be beledi but in a totally wholesome way. Boys, jump around masculinely like Gene Kelly!"

And so oriental dance was born and raised.

Disclaimer: not peer reviewed.

Zum, you rule!

..l;,

That was awesome, Zummarad. Bellydance for Dummies!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I'm not sure, but I think the Ghawazee were banned from Cairo in the first half of the 19th century. Didn't Shamadan as a tradition start much later, like the 1920s? Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong!

There were two dancers associated with the origins of shamadan in Egypt. One was Zouba el Klobatiyya (the word "klob" refers to a lantern, so she was named for the fact that she danced with a lantern on her head), and the other was Shafiqa el Koptiyya (Shafiqa the Coptic Christian), who was famous in her day and sought after to perform at the weddings of royalty and the wealthy. From what I can make out, Zouba came up with the idea and Shafiqa, who was already famous for her dancing, popularized it and turned it into something that became "expected" and "traditional" at weddings.

There is a conflicting story that shamadans were worn by dancers in the Turkish courts. I have not yet had an opportunity to dig further into that one.

Anyway, back to Shafiqa el Koptiyya. Her fame arose in the 19th century. She was really the first belly dancer to achieve widespread fame/popularity, back before Badia Masabni opened her famous nightclub. In fact, she was so famous that a biopic movie was made about her life, with the usual tendency of movies to take liberties with the facts. Shafiqa died in 1926.

I have not yet been able to uncover when Shafiqa first started using a shamadan, but when you put together her role in popularizing it and the fact that she died in 1926, I think you can safely conclude that she must have started using the shamadan no later than the early nineteens.

Shira,
You are such a gold mine of info!!!!!! Thanks for this!
Nisaa

Originally Posted by *Shira*

There were two dancers associated with the origins of shamadan in Egypt. One was Zouba el Klobatiyya (the word "klob" refers to a lantern, so she was named for the fact that she danced with a lantern on her head), and the other was Shafiqa el Koptiyya (Shafiqa the Coptic Christian), who was famous in her day and sought after to perform at the weddings of royalty and the wealthy. From what I can make out, Zouba came up with the idea and Shafiqa, who was already famous for her dancing, popularized it and turned it into something that became "expected" and "traditional" at weddings.

There is a conflicting story that shamadans were worn by dancers in the Turkish courts. I have not yet had an opportunity to dig further into that one.

Anyway, back to Shafiqa el Koptiyya. Her fame arose in the 19th century. She was really the first belly dancer to achieve widespread fame/popularity, back before Badia Masabni opened her famous nightclub. In fact, she was so famous that a biopic movie was made about her life, with the usual tendency of movies to take liberties with the facts. Shafiqa died in 1926.

I have not yet been able to uncover when Shafiqa first started using a shamadan, but when you put together her role in popularizing it and the fact that she died in 1926, I think you can safely conclude that she must have started using the shamadan no later than the early nineteens.

I'll also add that Shafiqa el-Koptiyya trained many other dancers - so much for the assertions certain bhuzzers are fond of making that Egyptians traditionally didn't have "teachers". It's true they didn't have group classes as we know them, but they did have private lessons and mentoring relationships. And the famous dancers such as Shafiqa el-Koptiyya were certainly in demand as instructors by those women on Mohammed Ali Street who had aspirations of greatness.

Two of the dancers trained by Shafiqa el-Koptiyya were Nadia Hamdi's grandmother and Nadia Hamdi's great-aunt. Of course, Nadia's grandmother then trained Nadia. So, the best example in our day and age of the traditional Mohammed Ali Street dancing, including shamadan, and including Shafiqa el-Koptiyya's influence is Nadia Hamdi. At the height of her career, Nadia was considered the reigning queen of shamadan.

Nadia is now retired from dancing, but there are videos showing her dancing with shamadan on her U.S. tour in 1998. These are available from Morocco and the Aswan Dancers.

Well, pardon my anachronistic brain fart. I was trying to validate the males around here... so boys and shamadan = pure fantasy then?

I just have to say: "Anachronistic Brain Fart" would be an excellent name for a rock band.

Originally Posted by Zana

I just have to say: "Anachronistic Brain Fart" would be an excellent name for a rock band.

My friend's son started a garage band when he was in high school. They called it 'Painful Discharge.' ..l;,

Well, pardon my anachronistic brain fart. I was trying to validate the males around here... so boys and shamadan = pure fantasy then?

Nasila, I'm so glad you got that convo started, I learned things! *AND* I have a new fantasy...

Painful Discharge?
*schnork*
Oh, that's funny. Love it.

New fantasies are priceless, aren't they? I'm so glad Bhuz is a full-service establishment.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Oh, sorry.. was I objectifying the bellydancers again? Shame on me!

Well, considering no-one ever posts a picture of ME in the various "HAWT MALE" threads - I'll take what I can get! ..l;,

Originally Posted by zorba

Well, considering no-one ever posts a picture of ME in the various "HAWT MALE" threads - I'll take what I can get! ..l;,

..l;, No one ever posts me there, either, Zorba, even now that women's pics are being included. It's all Angelina and Catherine Zeta Jones. I might have to flounce...

Originally Posted by *Shira*

At the height of her career, Nadia was considered the reigning queen of shamadan.

Who's the "reigning queen" now? Rebab (as attributed in "The Belly Dancers of Cairo")? Or someone else? Or no-one?

Rebab certainly gets the "world's largest" award - she has some HUGE Shemadans! Makes mine, and everyone else's I've seen, look tiny by comparison.

Screen grab from "Belly Dancers of Cairo":

Originally Posted by Lauren_

..l;, No one ever posts me there, either, Zorba, even now that women's pics are being included. It's all Angelina and Catherine Zeta Jones. I might have to flounce...

I'll join ya - we'll show 'em how flouncing is REALLY done! Bring your biggest skirt.

OH, and there you go Zorba, everyone is going to start posting you in hot male threads and probably giving you your own.

I think starting 'hot ladies' threads in retribution is a good idea. And Zum, that was hilarious. I want it on my wall.

Bellydancers of Cairo is the ONLY time I've ever heard of Rebab, but she's got an amazing set of antlers there. I liked her interview, too.

Dandash did a nice Shamadan on one of the AWS videos. (how come we rarely hear about Dandash any more -- did she stop dancing to raise her babies?)

What about Aida Nour?

Drooling over a hot man doesn't mean he has to drool over us in return. The fun is in the ogling.

And if saying "hot" makes me disconcerting, well then ... awesome.

Originally Posted by D_Advocate

Not merely that, but that 98% of the so called 'hot' men featured here in these 'guy' threads, are non hetero, and would not be particularly interested in the women who drool over them...c::

Well, since I'm married, I wouldn't really want them to be interested in me! I'd just have to disappoint them by rejecting their attractive selves.

Duly noted. Happens sometimes when people gather, sex is a very popular topic of conversation.

Did you go to all the trouble of creating this sock puppet identity just to make that one point? Or are there other issues you'd like to address while you're disguised?

Aida does Shamadan... in 2002 she did a Shamadan as her opening number at the Stockholm Bellydance Festival. She danced in with the Shamadan, danced with it some, put it on the floor, did some gestures and movements in relation to the shamadan before she got up, danced around it - and eventually finished the song, bowed and picked up the shamadan - blew out the candles and put it away to so do her Oum K song.

Eh, bad grammar, but there it is :)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Did you go to all the trouble of creating this sock puppet identity just to make that one point? Or are there other issues you'd like to address while you're disguised?

Okay, so I wasn't the only one thinking it. Yay for not being paranoid!

I would certainly hope that our new member starts contributing constructive and informational comments in some of the dance threads soon. I mean, if you want to chastise people about getting away from the subject at hand, one would hope you would be contributing enthusiastically about the subject yourself.

Originally Posted by laura 2

Okay, so I wasn't the only one thinking it. Yay for not being paranoid!

Almost no one lurks on a forum long enough/often enough to be annoyed by things, joins, and immediately starts criticizing the members as a group within three posts.

When someone creates a name and signature line that announces their intention to stir sh*t, it's almost got to be a regular who needs to vent about things that are bothering them.