Thread: belly dance to the rhythm or melody?

What do you do? I have been seacring the net looking for videos of people dancing to beledi rhythm and i find that some people dance the rhythm while others don't. Example

Dancing to the beledi beat for most of her dance
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx0XB3fjsr8&feature=related]YouTube - Amani Jabril Beledi[/ame]

While this dancer dances to the beledi beat very little

YouTube - Tamra Henna (TX) - Balady Taxim

Good question. As dancers, we get to choose when to dance to the melody and when to dance to the drums, in any given piece.

Both of the clips you posted are of "Balady Taxim," which doesn't mean they are beledi rhythm, but instead refers to a style of music/dance based on "the common people," or Balady people of Egypt. The melody part is improvised, often on the yummy Egyptian-style accordion (which is able to produce the quarter-tones used in Arabic music, unlike regular Western accordions), or, as in the second clip, on the violin.

These clips depict two very different situations. The first clip looks to be a stage show. The dancer is lovely. She mostly chooses to dance to the drum, and while she is very accomplished, I felt she missed a few opportunities to switch from interpreting the drum to interpreting the very expressive melody. She does dance more to the melody around 4:23.

The second clip is a restaurant/nightclub setting. She is definitely dancing "to the drums," although the rhythms I hear are Saidi in the first section and Fellahi (2/4) toward the end, around the time that the guy comes out to dance with her.

Both are accomplished dancers who are dancing "to the music," which is the goal of raqs sharqi. The interpretation is open for the dancer to express her response to the music, which is one of the most appealing things about our dance form. That space for individual expression makes each performance unique.

Sometimes dancers will choose to express different melody instruments with different parts of the body, e.g. a flute with the arms, accordion with torso, drums with the hips, etc.

Hope this helps answer some of your question.

The answer is ... yes!

P.S. Dancers try to "mix it up," changing the texture of the dance to keep things interesting and exciting, so sometimes the movement will be slow and gooey, reflecting something happening in the melody at that point, and other times the movement will be sharper and rhythmic.

I love the way Orit dances to both here, without overdoing it:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgbE6J-pqgY]YouTube - Sensuality, grace: bellydancer ORIT MAFTSIR!![/ame]

I asked Zahra this very same question a few years ago, and her response was to dance to whichever is more prominent in the music, or whichever moves you more. So, I think Dunyah's advice is good - it's up to your interpretation! :)

I think you have to acknowledge both of them to varying degrees. You should acknowledge changes in the music, rhythm, mood, tempo, melody--at some point, a different instrument may pick up the melody. I would say it just depends.

Originally Posted by toria_dances

What do you do? I have been seacring the net looking for videos of people dancing to beledi rhythm and i find that some people dance the rhythm while others don't. Example

Dancing to the beledi beat for most of her dance
YouTube - Amani Jabril Beledi

While this dancer dances to the beledi beat very little

YouTube - Tamra Henna (TX) - Balady Taxim

Toria,

I was at the workshop and show were Amani Jabril's clip was filmed. A couple of things that I am aware of since I was there might be interesting for your to factor in when watching the clip. First the clip is a choreography she taught earlier in the day as a "baladi drum solo." Before teaching Amani said that her purpose in teaching this was to help dancers, even if they weren't interested in learning baladi styling, to relax into the drum solo and not feel as if they had to hit every accent. You will notice that the accordian taqsim part is fairly short in that clip.

In teaching the choreography Amani put a lot of effort into helping students feel the resonance of the music and respond to it. The other thing is what the video clip doesn't show. And I noticed this also in my copy of the show dvd. The lighting and resolution isn't picking up all the small internal movements that Amani was using in reponse to the melody. If you notice she covers the stage retreating and advancing and when she is downstage you see more of the smaller internalized movements. Seeing it in person I got more sense that she was using the melody as well as acknowledging the accents.

And as someone else mentioned, in a baladi taqsim or a baladi progression, the rhythm may not be baladi at all but more often maqsum or saidi or alternating those two with masmoudi sogheir. Those three together are the common "baladi" rhythms.

Souzan

Originally Posted by Azhia

The answer is ... yes!

Hey, I was gonna say that!

Deborah

Originally Posted by nasila

I love the way Orit dances to both here, without overdoing it:

I think that's the ideal answer most of the time. Because the melody isn't randomly associated with the rhythm -- it's built on it. Even during a taxim, there's an 'invisible' rhythm and the melody is structured around that rhythm. The two are connected and the dancing lives in the space of that connection... ideally (not talking about MY dancing, of course, I haven't achieved this yet, but the Great Ones can do it.)

Of course, you can go back and forth, focusing on one or the other, for effect or simplicity. Especially during the opening portions of a beledi taxim, or anyplace the melody line does a call and response with the rhythm. But as the melody and rhythm integrate, it's wonderful is the dancer dancer also integrates.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I think that's the ideal answer most of the time. Because the melody isn't randomly associated with the rhythm -- it's built on it. Even during a taxim, there's an 'invisible' rhythm and the melody is structured around that rhythm. The two are connected and the dancing lives in the space of that connection... ideally (not talking about MY dancing, of course, I haven't achieved this yet, but the Great Ones can do it.)

Of course, you can go back and forth, focusing on one or the other, for effect or simplicity. Especially during the opening portions of a beledi taxim, or anyplace the melody line does a call and response with the rhythm. But as the melody and rhythm integrate, it's wonderful is the dancer dancer also integrates.

Actually in a taqsim the melody is structured on a maqam rather than a rhythm. The maqam is a melodic scale and each maqam has its own feel or emotional content. Certain maqam may evoke an emotional state that would lead to certain rhythms. An example might be maqam saba which is deep and sort of bluesy as opposted to maqam kurd which is light and energetic. You wouldn't resolve a saba taqsim into fellahin but maybe into masmoudi kabir. It seems to me that in the call and response part the melodic instrument calls with a melodic line that the drum imitates and then gradually the the roles reverse and the drum dominates the tempo and the rhythm.

Thats just my take on it. But I agree the integration of the melody and the rhythm in a baladi piece is just magic.

Souzan

You're right, it would be more accurate to say that a taxim is built on a maqam AND an invisible rhythm.

I almost did say so, actually, but I decided to leave the maqam out because it didn't seem related to the discussion at hand.

Lots of middle eastern music (maybe not pop?) is built on both a rhythm and a maqam. The presence of maqam doesn't mean there isn't also rhythm. The rhythm is there even when the drum isn't playing. The instrumental solist will still most likely be tapping a foot.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

You're right, it would be more accurate to say that a taxim is built on a maqam AND an invisible rhythm.

I almost did say so, actually, but I decided to leave the maqam out because it didn't seem related to the discussion at hand.

Lots of middle eastern music (maybe not pop?) is built on both a rhythm and a maqam. The presence of maqam doesn't mean there isn't also rhythm. The rhythm is there even when the drum isn't playing. The instrumental solist will still most likely be tapping a foot.

Yes, but a pure taqsim is nonrhythmic. Take a taqsim, by itself, and see if you can find a rhythm in it. There may be repetitions of a phrase but no recognizable rhythm. And I am not sure that a during a taqsim the melodic soloist would be taping a foot. The very definition of taqsim in a melodic solo with rhythm.

Of course middle eastern songs are based on maqams and rhythms. But not all songs contain taqsims. And not all solos are taqsims. An instrumental solo following the melody and rhythm of a song is not a taqsim, however a song may include a taqsim and the melody of the song may include a reprise reminiscent of the taqsim, but the taqsim itself contains no recognizable rhythm.

You could say much the same for the mawaal, which is a vocal taqsim or sorts.

Here are some YouTube videos of taqsims with various instruments. No foot taping. And try listening to them to see if they make you want to tap your foot. More like sway than taping.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFmjjMyHPjk]YouTube - Periklis Tsoukalas Oud Taksim (Demo)[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfwe6i2soJo&feature=related]YouTube - Qanoon Taqaseem[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLGY0iva4sg]YouTube - violin taqsim bait almousica بيت الموسيقى[/ame]

I think the short answer is both!

But I do hear a rhythmic structure! I hear a time signature (quarter notes, quarter rests (especially in the violin taskim). No foot tapping, but you can clearly see the oud player 'tapping' with his head rhythmically (esp around :45-1:00).

The violinist's 'rhythm' speeds up dramatically around 2:25 or so, and you can watch him rock back and forth to the rhythm -- I'm counting four counts per weight shift.

I don't mean to say that you're wrong, though. I'm enjoying the discussion, but you're right, of course -- the taxim is rhythmically very free-flowing, the instrumentalist might repeat a phrase or create a rhythm through the accents (the oud player was practically drumming at one point with his accents) but they will usually abandon it after a few imaginary 'measures', draw out a note, have a rest, then pick up something different.

But without *some* kind of underlying rhythm it would be entirely too random to even be music. Even great speakers create rhythm, good poems have rhythm and cadence, and a good mawwal has that, too.

I'm making too big a deal out of it for this topic, though, just for the sake of breaking down the music. When dancing to a taxim, the shifting sands of the rhythm are a moot point. I'd agree we only dance to the melody during the taxim.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

But I do hear a rhythmic structure! I hear a time signature (quarter notes, quarter rests (especially in the violin taskim). No foot tapping, but you can clearly see the oud player 'tapping' with his head rhythmically (esp around :45-1:00).

The violinist's 'rhythm' speeds up dramatically around 2:25 or so, and you can watch him rock back and forth to the rhythm -- I'm counting four counts per weight shift.

I don't mean to say that you're wrong, though. I'm enjoying the discussion, but you're right, of course -- the taxim is rhythmically very free-flowing, the instrumentalist might repeat a phrase or create a rhythm through the accents (the oud player was practically drumming at one point with his accents) but they will usually abandon it after a few imaginary 'measures', draw out a note, have a rest, then pick up something different.

But without *some* kind of underlying rhythm it would be entirely too random to even be music. Even great speakers create rhythm, good poems have rhythm and cadence, and a good mawwal has that, too.

I'm making too big a deal out of it for this topic, though, just for the sake of breaking down the music. When dancing to a taxim, the shifting sands of the rhythm are a moot point. I'd agree we only dance to the melody during the taxim.

Lauren, pretend I'm one of your students.
Excuse me Lauren, I don't understand what you mean by an "invisable rhythm". Please explain. I always understood that the taxsim was free of rhythm. Isn't it a time for the muscian to let the music flow free of rhythm.

My dad plays guitar and he will really get into and close his eyes and move his head and sway with his body. I asked him along time ago why he did that and he said,
"I get lost in my music and my body just moves".
It wasn't anything to do with tapping out the music with his head while he played so "I" see the oud player, getting lost in his music like my father does on the guitar.

Well, in that sense I could see where you would call it a rhythm in that there are whole notes, quarter notes, etc. But that only works within a time signature and does a taqsim have a time signature? The definition of rhythm is regularly occuring and repetitive accented beat. The time signature comes with the rhythm--2/4, 4/4, 6/8. If the accents and the rests in a taqsim were regularly and repetitively occuring then it would be rhythmic.

I know I am being esoteric here but this is something that really fascinates me. The band I play in is mostly doing drum solos, Arabic pop (saidi, baladi, maqsum) and occassionally some Turkish music. My job is keeping the basic rhythm (I play muzhir, bendir and tabla). So I guess I am looking at rhythm in a different light.

Right now I am reading AJ Racy's book MAKING MUSIC IN THE ARABIC WORLD:THE CULTURAL AND ARTISTRY OF TARAB and in discussing taqsim he talks about "time lost within time." Reminds me of Latifa's description of the point in baladi progression where the music "overtakes itself."

So I am not disagreeing at all. Just being devils advocate and trying to keep a fascinating discussion going.

Souzan

God I want that book. Is it horribly pricey?

Originally Posted by Michelle75

My dad plays guitar and he will really get into and close his eyes and move his head and sway with his body. I asked him along time ago why he did that and he said,
"I get lost in my music and my body just moves".
It wasn't anything to do with tapping out the music with his head while he played so "I" see the oud player, getting lost in his music like my father does on the guitar.

Right. But when the swaying is rhythmic, it indicates a rhythm. To me.

Hmmmm. I'm probably in way over my head here, and I could just be flat wrong. I guess what I'm hearing is what's described here:
Components of a Sound-Culture - Arab, Persian, Turkish
as:

A taksim performance would stress the gradual transition back-and-forth between sections with no sense of pulse or meter to one's with a sense of pulse and meter. Adzhan or khandan (Persian), the call-to-prayer and recitation of the Koran, generally avoids any sense of pulse, repetition or meter.

...which implies (to me) that taksims other than the ones mentioned do have a sense of pulse, repetition, or meter -- sometimes. What I hear is that transition back and forth. Sections where the repetition or accented beats clearly plays a 12345678 (in the oud taksim near the end, you can clearly count out 8 evenly spaced accented beats) -- but sections where the rhythm is totally abdicated, also.

I may be talking about what's called 'rhetorical rhythms' in this description?
Taksim

I only know that I hear rhythms -- of a very basic nature, nothing you'd call 'maksoum' or 'masmoudi' -- that come and go, and change, during the taskim.

I was taught in my early days that Turkish taksims are always played to a chiftitelli beat, whether there's an accompanying drum or not. I don't know if that's true and can't remember where I learned it, but maybe that (mis?)information has colored the way I listen to taksims?

I like the way I hear them, though. It's like poetry that goes from sonnet to free verse to couplet to free verse to something else. Like listening to Martin Luther King speak.

I think Artemis Imports from San Jose area has the book mentioned. She has a very good for sale library.

Lauren, I think we are basically saying the same thing just thinking of rhythm in different ways. There is a whole series of lectures on YouTube about maqams and taqsims by Cinucen Tanrıkorur. I havent watched them yet but thought it would be interesting. Here is a link to the first one where you can also find the other videos in the lecture:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMgpJXK--TE]YouTube - TAKSIM (3/11) C Tanrıkorur explains concept of MAKAM مقام[/ame]

Well this is way above my head, but in the example of the oud taxsim I can pick up the rhythm and flow. Some times its just a simple note that is repeated and evenly spaced, or short series of notes that repeat quickly and only last for half a measure before moving on. There are moments where in simplistic terms he is all over the board but it only lasts at the most for a full measure before he returns to a more simplistic rhythm then off again on another stream that enters his mind.

Does that help any?

Maybe its just because I have a natural ear for this, but I'm often complimented on my interpretations during my taxsim portion of the dance.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I was taught in my early days that Turkish taksims are always played to a chiftitelli beat, whether there's an accompanying drum or not. I don't know if that's true and can't remember where I learned it, but maybe that (mis?)information has colored the way I listen to taksims?

I am fairly sure that is not a hard rule, or we'd have a painful mismatch with taksims that are within non-even-metered tunes.

Overall, I agree with Lauren's comments. My guess is that taksiming musicians may go off into sections where they don't play to a defined beat briefly, just to return to a structure next. I have heard the difference between ME trained musicians and those without this training playing a taksim, and I certainly feel that trained musicians stay within character for the music when taksiming (in contrast to musicians who do not have that background). Not sure how to describe this well, apologies if this does not make too much sensee. When I hear a good ME musician taksiming, there is a "sense" in the taksim, a development of the melodic improvisiation.

I am not familiar with the theory behind ME music, so maybe somebody who has extensively studied maqams may be able to pipe in.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Well this is way above my head, but in the example of the oud taxsim I can pick up the rhythm and flow. Some times its just a simple note that is repeated and evenly spaced, or short series of notes that repeat quickly and only last for half a measure before moving on. There are moments where in simplistic terms he is all over the board but it only lasts at the most for a full measure before he returns to a more simplistic rhythm then off again on another stream that enters his mind.

Does that help any?

Boy, it helps ME a lot, Angela! That's what I hear. Short, arrhythmic segments between rhythmic segments. I've always thought that the definition of taksim as 'improvisiational solo free of rhythm' meant the soloist was free of any outside restrictions on his rhythm and could choose, or change on the fly, at will. Like freestyle swimming -- doesn't mean you have to invent a new stroke or swim without one, just means you get to pick, right?

Originally Posted by steffib

I am fairly sure that is not a hard rule, or we'd have a painful mismatch with taksims that are within non-even-metered tunes.

I can't say it's even for real as a guideline. I've been taught SO much BS in this art form, especially when it comes to Turkish style. But that's another whole topic.

Overall, I agree with Lauren's comments. My guess is that taksiming musicians may go off into sections where they don't play to a defined beat briefly, just to return to a structure next....

Whew. I was starting to think I was hearing things. Thanks. I think Souzan is right, we're both saying pretty much the same thing in different ways -- in that there IS rhythm, and there isn't -- at least, no defined or prescribed rhythm.

Anyway-- to get closer to topic -- the rhythm really isn't what I'd dance to in a taksim unless it was REALLY pronounced, like near the end of the oud example above, where I think it would be fun to do so. I think I could only do it with a recorded taksim that I'd studied carefully, though.

My point originally was just that the melody and the rhythm are usually so closely entwined that if you're *really* melding with the music, you couldn't help but be dancing to both. I'm talking about that ideal world where I'm a way better dancer than I am in real life, of course. In real life, I often have to choose.

I often travel to the rhythm, do standing isolations to the melody but try to hit the big juicy 'dums' as I go. I'm getting better at working with both at the same time, but I'm not quite there yet.

My understanding is that a solo musician does "freestyle" taqsim, or improvisation, not tied to any particular rhythm, but of course the musician will use some rhythm, as you guys are hearing.

Musicians often improvise during the rhythmic portion of a song, too. We still call that taqsim. I hear this a lot in Turkish music. It's usually the best part of the song! The dancer can respond to this part by dancing more to the melody than to the rhythm at that part, going back to the more straightforward interpretation of the rhythm when the band kicks back into the tune again.