Thread: In Defense of "American Classic" Belly Dancing

Some remarks were made on the Baladi Conundrum thread about the American Classic style of belly dancing that I felt deserved a spin-off to another thread.

First, there was this by Joann:

ok, but aren't we mainly talking purist styles here? (in reference to incorporating the folkloric elements) I mean, a modern American style bellydancer might throw anything they want in any section...right?

and that was followed by this:

'course I'm always thinking from a place that "good dancer" means you've done your cultural research. Which is just one paradigm to operate from. So maybe in a modern western performance it's anything and everything? I'm floundering in uncertain territory here.

and then there was this by Lauren:

But I know the other dancers in that genre would think them uneducated if they didn't know the right style of movement to accompany Karsilama (9/8). And I know they're expected to do veil to certain rhythms (bolero?) and certain moves go with certain rhythms (floorwork to Chiftitelli, for instance). And I'm sure it's OK to mix it up, but if you seem to be trampling all over the rhythms, I think you'd look uneducated.

and finally this:

Yeah, I'm falling into that trap, too! I also think I'm trying to talk about a more modern, western, hybrid form of bellydance, which I know less about. Instead I'm defaulting into what I know about AmCab, but that's not really what I was initially curious about.

So, all these comments taken together seem to be insinuating that American-style belly dancers ignore what the music is doing, don't bother learning how to apply the folkloric roots, and just go bouncing around doing their own thing independent of what the music is doing.

The whole tone seems to be that dancers who embrace the American Classic style are uneducated, and don't care, and that those who truly wish to take an educated approach to the dance will do Egyptian style. I don't mean here to be picking solely on Joann and Lauren - although you guys are the ones whose messages I've quoted, I've seen quite a bit of this attitude on bhuz over the years.

American Classic dancers typically use entire folk songs in our sets. So yes, the better American Classic dancers do know folkloric dance forms because we use the music. In my years as a student in the 1980's and early 1990's, I spent many classroom hours learning how to dance to Khaleegy just in case the band would play Aba'ad (Layla Layla) for me, many classroom hours learning how to dance to debke in case the band played A Nedda or Haddouni, many classroom hours learning to dance to 9/8 in case of Rampi Rampi or Mastika, and so on. I knowthe same can be said for many other dancers.

By the 1980's, education was available for those dancers willing to seek it. Native dancers were working here in the U.S., and many dancers learned from them and transmitted it to their students. Dancers were traveling to Egypt and Turkey, and bringing home what they learned to teach their students.

It's true that there were some American Classic style of dancers who did bounce around regardless of what the music was doing. But then, today there are dancers purporting to be Egyptian style who do that, and also ATS or tribal fusion. That doesn't mean everybody did that.

So when you think of American Classic, don't think of the form as being populated with ignorant people wiggling around who don't know any better. Think of it as a variation on the fusion concept - a fusion was performed by people who worked hard to learn the underlying folk styles that were being fused.

And quit calling us AmCab. You don't call Egyptian style "Eggy" do you?

I don't interpret any of those quotes as meaning that American style dancers don't follow the music.

But I"m sure those you quoted will be along to speak up for themselves.

Meanwhile, count my vote, I'm one Egyptian enthusiast who would NOT agree that American style dancers don't care about following the music.

Thank-you, Shira! It's funny: when I first started (pre internet, DVD, etc days) everyone did pretty much generic "bellydance". Even then, though, we had to learn. Maybe we had to learn more: it's not easy mixing beledi, cifti, Saidi, and 9/8 in the same set but it's what we were expected to do!

Yes, American Classic is a fusion. And doing it very well means understanding all of the underlying pieces that define it. So, over time, most of us that hung in there learned the 'pure' styles as well. And continued to innovate in our own way.

I can dance pure Egytpian nightclub or pure Turkish Rom. I can slay with a saidi assaya-and have even taught Guedra. But my heart belongs to the classic American. It's what I do. If I can't use my sword and veil and zills I'm not going.

Kitty

I can only speak on this subject from my personal experience. Since I do not know what trends are occurring in the American Cabaret world.

In my training, we address the rhythm, melody and accents. I was never given any strict rules as to what type of music we dance to or the need to address Khaleegy, saidi, or baladi. That is left to personal interpretation.

Main emphasis, has all ways been on addressing rhythm first. A dancer may address it in 1/4, half time, full time or double time. I found that no matter what the music is. 4/4 6/8 7/8 9/8 that so long as your on the down beat and acknowledging that down beat your pretty safe. The rest is all personal interpretations. I've been trained to visualize the music by shapes. What shape to you associate with this sound?

I must be doing something right cause dancers have commented on my musicality and have asked me to do workshops on it. So I must care about the music.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I don't interpret any of those quotes as meaning that American style dancers don't follow the music.

But I"m sure those you quoted will be along to speak up for themselves.

Meanwhile, count my vote, I'm one Egyptian enthusiast who would NOT agree that American style dancers don't care about following the music.

I agree. I didn't interpret the quotes to be criticisms of American Classic in any way.

Maybe some of the quotes weren't so much criticism as not knowing what the style involves?

The first idea, that a modern American belly dance might throw in anything they want at any time could be construed as a criticism, I guess. Yes a modern American dancer could do that but she wouldn't look very good doing it.

I love the veiled entrance, the zills, the veil dance, sword, etc. I don't do a 5-part routine, I don't think I ever did that. Especially nowadays, the sets I dance have to be 10 min. or less.

Any dancer in any style needs to know her music and express it with musicality.

I agree that there is often condescension from Egyptian purists towards those who don't dance Egyptian style. I don't know if those quotes were written to imply that those who dance American Classic style are ignorant wannabes.

But I strongly feel that American style is legitimate, unique and beautiful on it's own. My understanding is that it was originally based on Turkish style, but in the 60s and 70s, since most dancers performed to live music from multi-ethnic bands, that they learned to mix styles to fit the multi-ethnic music they danced to and entertain multi-ethnic audiences. And that's something we still have to do, in contrast to dancers in Egypt. We may be booked to perform at a Lebanese restaurant a Russian party and a Persian wedding all in the same weekend. So if anything, to be successful, we have to educated.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

In my training, we address the rhythm, melody and accents. I was never given any strict rules as to what type of music we dance to or the need to address Khaleegy, saidi, or baladi. That is left to personal interpretation.

Main emphasis, has all ways been on addressing rhythm first. A dancer may address it in 1/4, half time, full time or double time. I found that no matter what the music is. 4/4 6/8 7/8 9/8 that so long as your on the down beat and acknowledging that down beat your pretty safe. The rest is all personal interpretations.

Same here

I like American Classic! And personally, i say AmCab because saying the whole name takes so long. ,f::

I also like Egyptian, but I do get tired of some dancers thinking it's the *only* way to dance. There are so many styles, not just American and Egyptian. And even within those two, the styles have evolved over time. Looking at old videos of Egyptian dancers and then comparing to today's Dina, you'll see what I mean.

Personally, I involve both. I do like how intimate Egyptian style is, but I also like the big-stage presence of American Classic and the props.

AAAAAHHHHHH!! total misunderstanding!!

Yes, I love AmCab/Vintage Oriental/American Classic too! And yes, I know within that genre there is much education about the differing ethnic and folkloric elements, different rhythms, etc.

I'm talking about modern western influenced bellydancing - we're discussing apples and oranges.

And yes, I like this kind of dancing too! I certainly didn't intend to come across as snooty, and I'm so sorry I did to some of you! That's what I get for posting quick without re-reading and re-analyzing. I guess my name for it (which seems to change at every post) is not descriptive enough, hence the confusion. I'm talking someone like Aziza. (Though I wasn't specifically thinking of Aziza with that discussion, and actually she's not the best example because she does throw in the folkloric stuff here and there... but perhaps there are times when she addresses the folkloric sections in a non-folkloric way...I'll have to go check sometime.) Anyway, since she's a well-known example and since no one can accuse me of dissing her because it's widely known that I love her to pieces, Aziza has a smattering of Egyptian, AmCab, etc. influences in her dancing. Yet she is not completely old school "vintage oriental/AmCab". She's got a very modern sensibility and has more going on than a strict AmCab style. And to my eye, (though there is only one Aziza) - there are lots and lots of dancers around the world that fit into a more modern classification such as this.

I said this on the other thread too, but by "anything" I meant that they can simply look at the folkloric rhythms with more of an open mind that an Egyptian Purist would. Sure, we still hope that it will be on the beat, and seem to flow with the mood of that section. But it might be heavy hip drops instead of saidi bouncing.

I still wish people would quit calling it AmCab. Again, no one feels the need to abbreviate Egyptian to Eggy.

I don't see how it's even possible to interpret what I wrote that way.

I was saying that the folk rhythms we were talking about were specific to Egyptian style. And I went on to say that Vintage Orientale/American Cabaret dancers probably have their own specific folk rhythms and steps that they need to know, those from Lebanon, Armenia and Turkey, but that I'm not educated enough in that style to name them.

I named the few rhythms and traditions that I do know from that genre (Karsilama, Bolero, Chifititelli) as illustration that American Cabaret is NOT a free-for-all of uneducated dancers, and went on to say that the reason I can't name any more is that I'm *not* educated in that form.

How ANY of what I said could be interpreted as its own exact opposite is completely beyond me.,f::..c::

By the way, I'm NOT an Egyptian purist, although it's one of my favorite styles and the one I know the most about. I love all styles, and I'm especially fond of American Cabaret*

I've choreographed and teach a choreo in the American Cabaret style to my students, along with one that is Tribal-ish, a Turkish Rom, some Egyptian pieces, and several American-mongrel style plain ole' bellydance. I like them all. I lack training in some of the styles, though, so I don't try to teach or perform them beyond a taste for my students. Because I *respect* that it does take training to do those styles well!



*as I was originally taught to call it, now there are several new names being bandied about and I'll be glad to adopt one of those when one is decided upon, but continuously typing them all out with slashes in between wears me down. I very carefully did NOT use the AmCab abbreviation in any of my posts, and made a point of using the Vintage Orientale option in at least one post because I know some dancers are bothered even by American Cabaret anymore, but I don't honestly know what other name to use.).

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I still wish people would quit calling it AmCab. Again, no one feels the need to abbreviate Egyptian to Eggy.

Hey I'm proud of my AmCab! save me a lot of typing....,r:;

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Hey I'm proud of my AmCab! save me a lot of typing....,r:;

That's the only thing good about that name, but it's enough to make it stick.,f::

I have to admit I don't like the name but it's sure an easy shortcut. I was taught the name American Cabaret, too and I have never had a problem with that like some people (Morocco, especially) do.

Thanks Shira! American Classic was born of the eclectic nature of where, for whom, and with which combinations of musicians we danced. Those of us who "grew up in" American Classic had to learn all those styles and were expected to be able to dance to all those different kinds of music and know what dance styles went with each and every one of them. I have pretty much transitioned into Egyptian style as my favorite but still remember the Turkish style and debki accents, sometimes using the latter when the music calls for it. And I still really enjoy watching American Classic dancing.

Again, no one feels the need to abbreviate Egyptian to Eggy.

No, because there are not two gs in Egy. Which I've seen quite often.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

I can only speak on this subject from my personal experience. Since I do not know what trends are occurring in the American Cabaret world.

In my training, we address the rhythm, melody and accents. I was never given any strict rules as to what type of music we dance to or the need to address Khaleegy, saidi, or baladi. That is left to personal interpretation.

Main emphasis, has all ways been on addressing rhythm first. A dancer may address it in 1/4, half time, full time or double time. I found that no matter what the music is. 4/4 6/8 7/8 9/8 that so long as your on the down beat and acknowledging that down beat your pretty safe. The rest is all personal interpretations. I've been trained to visualize the music by shapes. What shape to you associate with this sound?

I must be doing something right cause dancers have commented on my musicality and have asked me to do workshops on it. So I must care about the music.

Exactly! I think, as what happened to the Baladi thread, there starts to be an over analysis sometimes about what must be done where in our dancing. It's about following the music and being knowledgable about interpreting the "feel." If something feels more earthy, I'll dance more earthy. I wouldn't say I'm adding xyz baladi step into section y of music since the rhythm changed.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I don't see how it's even possible to interpret what I wrote that way.

I don't see it, either, and I don't see any reason for the hostile, defensive tone of the OP. I read Lauren's posts (and Joanne's) as acknowledging the complexities of dancing correctly in either style, not suggesting that one requires attention to rhythmic changes and the other doesn't. These are compliments, not slams. What's the problem?

Originally Posted by mihnea

Exactly! I think, as what happened to the Baladi thread, there starts to be an over analysis sometimes about what must be done where in our dancing. It's about following the music and being knowledgable about interpreting the "feel." If something feels more earthy, I'll dance more earthy. I wouldn't say I'm adding xyz baladi step into section y of music since the rhythm changed.

I agree! I mentioned on that thread that these things get blown out of proportion when we're talking about them. While dancing, it's just not that big a deal! Theory vs. practice is such a huge difference.

Originally Posted by Zana

These are compliments, not slams. What's the problem?

Exactly. No 'defense' is necessary. Just accept the compliments graciously.

American Cabaret has been tremendously influenced by Egyptian style for at least 25 years now, so it's no surprise that dancers like Aziza have incorporated elements of both into their dancing. To me, Aziza is an American Cabaret style dancer - she uses veil, zills, and sometimes balances a wine glass on her head. She has been known to spin poi, though I've never seen her do that and I don't know if she performs that with a belly dance routine. Aziza is the ultimate of the modern American Cabaret style. The style isn't just vintage or classic, it evolves. That's my opinion.

I didn't read all of the other thread, but I didn't think the comments quoted here were that critical, just kind of confused.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I still wish people would quit calling it AmCab. Again, no one feels the need to abbreviate Egyptian to Eggy.

I personally don't like the term either, but that comes with two very big caveats; first, I dislike abbreviations like J-Lo and K-Fed. AmCab just fits right in there and seems to take away some dignity. Second: I don't fully understand what American Cabaret style is. I have a lot to learn and discover and I'm excited for that. But I think I'd be more excited to learn about "American Cabaret" than I would be to learn about "AmCab".

...

I don't want to hijack this thread with what I'm about to say, but if Shira asks that people type the entire phrase, "American Cabaret" then I have a request:

Can we please type the whole word, "choreography"?

I wince everytime I read that someone has "a choreo". ..c::

Originally Posted by veritate

Can we please type the whole word, "choreography"?

I wince everytime I read that someone has "a choreo". ..c::

Really? I do this all the time - I had no idea anyone found it jarring. I even use it when speaking, as it was a term that was used freely all the years I did Western dancing.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I agree! I mentioned on that thread that these things get blown out of proportion when we're talking about them. While dancing, it's just not that big a deal! Theory vs. practice is such a huge difference.

I totally agree! I just read your other post on that thread. I think it's just hard to communicate via message board sometimes. I never meant to imply in the other thread that we don't need to learn folkloric, just that sometimes I rather spend my money on plain old bellydance.

Originally Posted by dunyah

The style isn't just vintage or classic, it evolves.

I agree that the style has been evolving, and you've provided some good examples of that.

But words like "classic" are sometimes used to apply to modern day interpretations of a classical notion. For example, a woman's suit consisting of blazer + skirt is considered a classical look. In any given year, the suits being sold will be adapted to current fashions trends - the hemline, whether it's single- or double- breasted, the size of the shoulder pads, the length of the jacket, etc. But regardless of the details that are currently in vogue, it remains "classic" in people's minds.

I'd be willing to entertain other words than "classic" or "vintage". For example, I could see using a term like "retro", which is another term that can refer to an older idea that has been updated for today's tastes.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I agree that the style has been evolving, and you've provided some good examples of that.

But words like "classic" are sometimes used to apply to modern day interpretations of a classical notion. For example, a woman's suit consisting of blazer + skirt is considered a classical look. In any given year, the suits being sold will be adapted to current fashions trends - the hemline, whether it's single- or double- breasted, the size of the shoulder pads, the length of the jacket, etc. But regardless of the details that are currently in vogue, it remains "classic" in people's minds.

I'd be willing to entertain other words than "classic" or "vintage". For example, I could see using a term like "retro", which is another term that can refer to an older idea that has been updated for today's tastes.

I don't object to American Classic, I just don't object to American Cabaret, either. But does AmClass sound any better than AmCab? Maybe it's the Am that is messing it up!..l;,

Originally Posted by dunyah

I don't object to American Classic, I just don't object to American Cabaret, either. But does AmClass sound any better than AmCab? Maybe it's the Am that is messing it up!..l;,

I do think the "Am" sounds ugly, and sounds like someone who doesn't speak English very well saying, "I am a ___".

As I said on the other thread about what to call it - my preference would probably be to just use the abbreviation "American". People don't feel the need to abbreviate the word "Egyptian", and "American" is no harder to type than "Egyptian". But I'd also be ok with an acronym such as AC (pronounced ay-see) or VO (pronounced vee-oh). People call FatChance's style ATS, pronounced ay-tee-ess. They don't call it AmTribe or AmFat.

Was there at one time a regional name for the collective area (before the nations formed as they are now) that most of the immigrants of the 60s and 70s could say...yes, I am from that area of the world? Smaller than the "Middle East" but larger than say, Lebanon. So the name could be...."something" American Dance. We need 3 letters to form an effective acronym.