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  1. #1
    Established BHUZzer LeylaFahada's Avatar
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    Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    I started to post this in the American Classic thread, but thought it might be a separate discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shira View Post
    I still wish people would quit calling it AmCab. Again, no one feels the need to abbreviate Egyptian to Eggy.
    I think that's b/c "Egyptian" is less cumbersome than "American Cabaret". And also, I'm biased - I feel like it's an affectionate nickname for the style I do. It's pretty common in any industry for common terms to be shortened or somehow mutilated by its users.

    Other than not shortening other dance style names, what is the objection to shortening this one? I'm just curious. Is it a mild annoyance or does it feel disrespectful?

    Another curiosity, for people who object to "AmCab", do you also object to "ATS"? I understand its an acronym over an abbreviation, but I think it's in the same spirit.

    I say and dance AmCab, but I'm not so attached to the word that I can't stop using it. It is pretty convenient though


  2. #2
    Ultimate BHUZzer ssipes's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    I only use AmCab as shorthand netspeak on bhuz or other dance discussion boards. I use the term American oriental or vintage oriental or American style belly dance in the real world.

    I also don't say LOL in the real world, but I might occasionally here ;-)


  3. #3
    Established BHUZzer LeylaFahada's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by ssipes View Post
    I only use AmCab as shorthand netspeak on bhuz or other dance discussion boards. I use the term American oriental or vintage oriental or American style belly dance in the real world.

    I also don't say LOL in the real world, but I might occasionally here ;-)
    Good point. I do use it when speaking, but only to other dancers. When speaking to a non-dancer, I make the effort to use full words ..l;,


  4. #4
    Ultimate BHUZzer steffib's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    AmCab is easy to type because of the position of the keys on the keyboard, and I am inclined to type it as a shorthand on Bhuz, where people know what it means. But, being in a city where "oh, you dance cabaret ..." is not the nicest thing one can say, I hardly ever use the term American cabaret offline, anyways.


  5. #5
    Official BHUZzer ceydahazine's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    AmCab doesn't bother me although I would only use it around other dancers. When talking to the GP, I usually call it American-style bellydance.


  6. #6
    Master BHUZzer danielabellydance's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    I don't mind it at all, and use it all the time when typing. I don't use it when speaking, just because it sounds weird. But it's much more convenient to type and I don't see a problem with it.


  7. #7
    Ultimate BHUZzer laura 2's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Add me to the "It's easier to type" crowd - like using BD for belly dance or MED for Middle Eastern Dance.


  8. #8
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Lauren_'s Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Yup, to me it's a 'net abbreviation, like LOL or MED, not a re-naming.

    I understand that some dancers of this style object, but I don't fully understand that. I don't mind someone typing out that I'm a ME dancer....? Even though that would sound pretty ugly if we said it out loud. I also don't object when people use Egy (which I see occasionally, though only a couple of Bhuzzers have done it).

    I think the bigger issue is that the style itself has gotten dissed a lot in recent years for not being 'authentic' and that's got the dancers rankled -- and rightly so. The more Turkish Oriental I see from the 60s and 70s, the more it looks almost exactly like AmCab. Dancers from that era in the US are rightly upset to be called 'inauthentic' when they learned most of what they know from first-hand sources in the nightclubs where they performed.

    It would be accurate to say that it's a melting-pot style, combining elements from various cultures without distinguishing between them (as the bands were melting pots, and as most Americans did see the ME as one homogeneous area at that time) -- including some American touches that are rather Hollywood and helped make the dance more appealing to their audiences. But it's not accurate to say it's 'inauthentic.'

    Anyway, I know some dancers object to American Cabaret because it's not totally American invention, and because Cabaret was originally a derogatory name given to the 'sparkly girls' by the budding 'tribal/ethnic' movement.

    I'm OK with people deciding to redefine themselves -- I use Roma instead of gypsy, I don't use old racial names that are now considered insulting. It's confusing trying to be PC while a group is in the act of redefining itself, especially when there IS NO cohesive group (ie leadership, committees).

    But as long as the dance is still called American Cabaret, I don't understand objecting to abbreviation. BD, MED, AmCab....


  9. #9
    Ultimate BHUZzer *Shira*'s Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    1. I strongly dislike the word "cabaret" itself because it has many connotations of sleaziness. I have spoken of this at length in previous threads, but I'm willing to post it on this one if people want me to. I do not call the dance "American Cabaret" myself, and I don't like it when others do. And one of my reasons for disliking AmCab is that it's an abbreviation of a term I don't like.

    2. AmCab sounds like "I am a taxicab"

    3. AmCab just has an ugly sound to it. The way it rolls off the tongue is not attractive. The term ATS doesn't bother me because it's pronounced ay-tee-ess, and MED doesn't bother me because it's pronounced em-ee-dee. People don't pronounce them as rhyming with bats and bed.



    I call the style American Classic. Artemis Mourat calls it Vintage Oriental - which I also like. I wouldn't mind calling the style AC (pronounced ay-see) or VO (pronounced vee-oh). For abbreviation purposes, I could also be okay with just calling it "American" in the same way people refer to "Egyptian".


  10. #10
    Ultimate BHUZzer dunyah's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    For me it is the ugly sound of AmCab plus the fear of it being re-named thus, plus the history of dissing of the style. I understand it is a convenient web shortcut, I've used it myself. I guess I wouldn't mind as much if it were just a shortcut and not having the other elements I mentioned attached to it. But, like some other aspects of the currrent BD (there's another shortcut name!) scene that I dislike, it's not going away, so I may as well tolerate it. I don't think I will mention my objection to it any more, what's the point.
    Last edited by dunyah; 12-17-2008 at 10:59 AM. Reason: typo-cat on lap!


  11. #11
    Established BHUZzer LeylaFahada's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by Shira View Post
    1. I strongly dislike the word "cabaret" itself because it has many connotations of sleaziness. I have spoken of this at length in previous threads, but I'm willing to post it on this one if people want me to. I do not call the dance "American Cabaret" myself, and I don't like it when others do. And one of my reasons for disliking AmCab is that it's an abbreviation of a term I don't like.

    2. AmCab sounds like "I am a taxicab"

    3. AmCab just has an ugly sound to it. The way it rolls off the tongue is not attractive. The term ATS doesn't bother me because it's pronounced ay-tee-ess, and MED doesn't bother me because it's pronounced em-ee-dee. People don't pronounce them as rhyming with bats and bed.


    I call the style American Classic. Artemis Mourat calls it Vintage Oriental - which I also like. I wouldn't mind calling the style AC (pronounced ay-see) or VO (pronounced vee-oh). For abbreviation purposes, I could also be okay with just calling it "American" in the same way people refer to "Egyptian".
    Thanks Shira, this makes a lot of sense. I will search for your posts on the word Cabaret. I have heard that there are ugly connotations with this word.

    I always thought AmCab sounded funny, but that's part of why I liked it. I had never heard American Classic before the other thread, but I do really like it - it's not cumbersome and both words sounds good. And AC covers things pretty well for our abbreviations.


  12. #12
    Ultimate BHUZzer *Shira*'s Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Adding to my comments above, people don't call FatChance's style AmTribe.


  13. #13
    Mega BHUZzer david's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    ACB = AmCab = American Cabaret Bellydance
    ATS = ATS = American Tribal Style
    ATF = ATF = American Tribal Fusion
    AUT = Urban Tribal = American Urban Tribal
    Fusion = Fusion = fusion
    ERS = Egyptian = Egyptian Raqs Sharki
    LRS = Lebanese = Lebanese Raqs Sharki
    TOT = Turkish = Turkish Oriyantal Tanzi

    It's mainly abbreviations we use to make fast typing/reading/speaking easier among "connesseauires" (Sp?). The abbreviations arent necessarily the ACTUAL term either. I mean, what the heck is Egyptian? Do you mean folk dances? do you mean coffee? do you mean make up? The correct term for Egyptian Raqs Sharki would actually be Danse Orientale (that's what the Egyptian dancers call it among themselves). Or TOT??? The Turks just call it Oriyantal....even the GP calls it that.

    I make a point out of saying the long winded names fully when I talk to people that aren't in the dance so they get used to hearing the names.

    It's interesting that we waste so much time on over-PC'ing and changing terminology when what we should spend time on is defining the style(s) and REMOVING the connotation that people oppose to.

    Frankly, I cant stand the term Bellydance. As soon as someone uses that in regard to what I do or the dance a part of the "artiste" in me dismisses them immediately. However, that IS in fact the mainstream term for what we do... all of us. And if you are looking to reach fellow "bellydancers" or the GP in ANY way without a lengthy explanation of what the heck it is that you do - you just say "bellydance!" on a sign and people come running like military guys to a strip joint....(ops... did I say that?). As a professional however, I make a point of saying Middle Eastern over and over and over and over again hoping that it will sink into people's heads eventually. It gives me peace of mind, however, reality is - Bellydance is a term that's NEVER going to disappear. I can waste my time on trying to change it, or just accept the fact that it's the name people associate with what I do and it's a name that has been in use for a LOOONG time already.... and move on.

    I dont understand this obsession with changing names on things and styles. Shira's a great researcher. I'd rather have Shira spend her time on compiling information on WHAT the heck the style is to help define it more so that ignorant people would have the chance to become informed/ACB dancers didnt feel like they had to defend themselves constantly.


    DaVid


  14. #14
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Zumarrad's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Yeah, if I am talking about it I say "American Cabaret or American Classic belly dance as some people are calling it these days". I don't say "AmCab". But it is fast to type in the same way that ATS is fast to type (though not AS fast, since you can do ATS with one hand). I feel the fact I refer to it as American Classic at all is pretty PC of me, since I know some practitioners of it object to the "cabaret" word (which I never use to describe dance as I do it or teach it).

    Besides, at the rate that tribal fusion is taking over the world, it'll just be called "old school" soon anyway. Good way of getting the ME out of BD completely. OTOH, so many of the skills and much of the costuming of that time period are being picked up by tribal type dancers that I foresee a big revival.


  15. #15
    Advanced BHUZzer nisaasaintlouis's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    It's interesting that we waste so much time on over-PC'ing and changing terminology when what we should spend time on is defining the style(s) and REMOVING the connotation that people oppose to.

    Frankly, I cant stand the term Bellydance. As soon as someone uses that in regard to what I do or the dance a part of the "artiste" in me dismisses them immediately. However, that IS in fact the mainstream term for what we do... all of us. And if you are looking to reach fellow "bellydancers" or the GP in ANY way without a lengthy explanation of what the heck it is that you do - you just say "bellydance!" on a sign and people come running like military guys to a strip joint....(ops... did I say that?). As a professional however, I make a point of saying Middle Eastern over and over and over and over again hoping that it will sink into people's heads eventually. It gives me peace of mind, however, reality is - Bellydance is a term that's NEVER going to disappear. I can waste my time on trying to change it, or just accept the fact that it's the name people associate with what I do and it's a name that has been in use for a LOOONG time already.... and move on.

    Well said, all of it.


  16. #16
    Master BHUZzer Monica's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Another local teacher (Janine Ryal) and I had a conversation a year or so ago about marketing our classes as "Old School Belly Dance".


  17. #17
    Mega BHUZzer david's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis View Post
    Well said, all of it.
    .w.: sometimes I say smart things :)
    Thank you, Nisaa


  18. #18
    Established BHUZzer LeylaFahada's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    [...]
    I dont understand this obsession with changing names on things and styles. Shira's a great researcher. I'd rather have Shira spend her time on compiling information on WHAT the heck the style is to help define it more so that ignorant people would have the chance to become informed/ACB dancers didnt feel like they had to defend themselves constantly.

    DaVid
    You make a lot of good points, but since naming something is instrumental to defining it, we can't dismiss that process as a waste of time. In my area, people say AmCab all the time and I've never heard that term used to denigrate the style. So I was surprised to find that people here did not care for it. Rather than blindly striking it from my vocabulary, I attempted to understand why.

    Further, with terms being tossed around all over the place, how can one know that American Classic, AmCab, and Vintage Orientale are all the same if she has limited exposure?

    I agree that Shira is a great researcher, but she's not the only one who is trying to be. Since there is such a wealth of knowledge on this board and so many mixed views out there, it's prudent to approach this as a discussion. It's important to understand why things are the way they are.

    This post was never about being politically correct or changing names, it was just a few questions posed out of curiosity. Also, I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond to any of my posts. I don't think it was a waste of their time, but then since I benefited, I may not be the best judge. It's important to note though, I didn't call anyone up and demand that they answer my question, so if their time is being wasted, it is of their own volition.


  19. #19
    Ultimate BHUZzer dunyah's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    I like Old School, but as I said in another post, the style is current and evolves.


  20. #20
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. anala's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    I posted this on another thread...better here.

    David, the "problem" with ACB is it that it still incorporates the terms cabaret and belly dance when spoken long hand. I get that that is a no no.

    Was there at one time a regional name for the collective area (before the nations formed as they are now) that most of the immigrants of the 60s and 70s could say...yes, I am from that area of the world? Smaller than the "Middle East" but larger than say, Lebanon. So the name could be...."something" American Dance (or Style) We do need 3 letters to form an effective acronym or the word will continue to be shortened rather than spelled.


  21. #21
    Ultimate BHUZzer dunyah's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by Shira View Post
    For abbreviation purposes, I could also be okay with just calling it "American" in the same way people refer to "Egyptian".
    I use this a lot in my intros for show for a general audience -American-style belly dance. I sometimes use the word eclectic in the description.


  22. #22
    Advanced BHUZzer AngelaDiCaprio's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Wow, I must live in a totally different world. I have never heard any negative connotations to American Cabaret.

    I like I said earlier, I like AmCab cause its easier to type, but I've never used that abbreviation when in conversation.


  23. #23
    Master BHUZzer Monica's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by dunyah View Post
    I like Old School, but as I said in another post, the style is current and evolves.
    Yeah, it was a tad tongue in cheek. (And Zum, great minds think alike!)

    I'll elaborate...to me the term 'old school' is common in my neighborhood and certain (non-dance) scenes to discuss things with roots, that are authentic, real, from the heart. It implies that there is a source and an originality that is directly connected to a past and a place and a time. I like it because it does not implicitly put down what has and will come after, and it assumes there has been growth and change that also has a heart and a pulse and a realness. But as a term it does place cultural expression in a context.

    I do find great expression and variety and voice in both the styles I love and do--Egyptian and old school American, dances with definite social and performance aspects. I don't see them as static or unchanging. I do see them as rooted in the Near East (North Africa, Middle East, parts of the Mediterranean), and like naming that reflects that. 'Belly dance' alone as a term does root it to me, but that may be changing. 'Cabaret' as a term does not speak to me as reflecting a style, no matter what adjective we use before it.


    Is Zum offensive? Sorry...I am a laaaazy typist. ;)


  24. #24
    Established BHUZzer Sariah's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    and people come running like military guys to a strip joint....(ops... did I say that?).
    ahem Not all military guys are like that.

    end of hijack
    Last edited by Sariah; 12-17-2008 at 01:07 PM.


  25. #25
    Ultimate BHUZzer dunyah's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    p.s. For years around here (Oregon) I saw lots of dancers I would consider to be American style belly dancers calling themselves Egyptian style dancers in their intros. Because Egyptian style was considered vastly superior by some influential dancers and their students, it was preferred even if their dance style wasn't really that different from what they had always done, as far as I could see. That attitude is less prevalent lately, in my local area at least.


  26. #26
    Mega BHUZzer david's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Layla: I did read your posts - aside from the examples people will give you to why they oppose American Cabaret/AmCab... the underlying reason is... we in the West love to desexualize, disconnect, re-categorize and re-name things.

    Examples:
    - I cant be sexy - dance is not sexy, it's pure art if done right
    - I invented X X X X style - therefore what I do has nothing with the Middle East [or insert any other region for that matter]
    - I'm not Asian - I'm North Indian
    - I'm not American - I am Scottish-Swedish-German-Irish-Afro-Brazilian
    - It's not Black/Afro-American/American - it's person of color
    - It's not American Cabaret (Bellydance) - it's American Old Classical Vintage School Orientale
    - The Kama Sutra is not about primal urges and pleasure - it's about a higher spiritual awareness through intimacy between two people
    - it's not Lapplander - it's Sami
    - It's not Raqs Sharki - it's Danse Orientale
    etc etc etc

    Honestly, I think that quite a few people have a problem with the nature of any art involving movement. That's why many religions forbid it (in more stricter forms). Anything that has with the body and movement to do can/will be considered sexy/sexual/sensual - thus it's dirty and naughty. So, we desexualize things by saying "oh no, it's not THAT, it's THIS".

    I had a 4 hour "discussion" with this lady on the plane once about Bellydance and it being a dance of seduction and not an artform... at the end of the flight she said "well, I see what you are saying but I dont want it to be an artform in my eyes because then I have to face my own prejudices. It's easier to just dismiss it as skanky and seductive - something I couldnt get myself to do" (insinuating that all bellydancers are sluts/pimps/out to get your husband and SHE would never do such a thing because she is a good girl).

    Dunyah: yes, but that's a term that is WIDELY known as a HipHop term in dance settings. If you say you do Old School - people assume it's hiphop that you do. MAN are they going to be disappionted when you come out klinking along on your zils LOL

    American Cabaret Bellydance....taste it, it says where it's from. It indicates what flavor it has where it's from. And it refers to the category of dances it belongs to.

    Here's some interesting reading:
    Cabaret - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    cabaret definition | Dictionary.com
    cabaret synonym | Thesaurus.com


  27. #27
    Mega BHUZzer david's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by Sariah View Post
    ahem Not all military guys are like that.

    end of hijack
    Lol of course not... I didnt mean that either. I was just using a typical prejudice as a joke/example. Fleet week - opps Midway's going to be crowded.... (Midway is where "those" places are at... or so I've heard)


  28. #28
    Mega BHUZzer david's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by dunyah View Post
    p.s. For years around here (Oregon) I saw lots of dancers I would consider to be American style belly dancers calling themselves Egyptian style dancers in their intros. Because Egyptian style was considered vastly superior by some influential dancers and their students, it was preferred even if their dance style wasn't really that different from what they had always done, as far as I could see. That attitude is less prevalent lately, in my local area at least.
    Dunyah - perfect example! That'd be like me trying to pass as Tribal when I danced at Tribal Cafe a couple of years ago because it's more "widely accepted" in that setting....I did Egyptian and it was announced as such, btw. The day I do Tribal - I'll make sure I REALLY know how to do it, before I try to pass anything as such.

    I think you are right though - it seems like quite a lot of people have this idea that Egyptian is "better". Well, it's not, it's just broken down to a wider extent (at times) and therefore is easier to understand the mechanics of. That's what needs to be done for ACB as well. Suhaila Salimpour has one great version of the mechanics down and documented, but it's HER version. There is a more widely done and consistent version of the mechanics out there as well that I'd LOVE to get documented. I get mezmerized when I see two dancers from separate coasts without no obvious connection to each other dance similarly with pretty much same posture, movement pattern and concepts. I just HAVE to have it, I have to decifer the reason... and since I havent been able to do so so far...I'm ridiculously caught up in that...for good and for bad. Thats why I'm researching it. Call me a nerd, but I find it to be a hugely exciting field.

    I never understood why people get inferiority complexes based on the dance style they love and get so much joy from anyway...

    I never say I do Classical Indian dances even though the dancer's backstage are. I do folk dances, they are the dances of the commoners...I'd be weird to claim that the dance belonged to someone else than the commoners/GP.

    DaVid


  29. #29
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. anala's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Must be a Navy thang...we dont even have a real bar here... my town is a life support system for an Air Force base.


  30. #30
    Mega BHUZzer david's Avatar
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    Re: Spinoff: Calling it AmCab

    Quote Originally Posted by anala View Post
    Must be a Navy thang...we dont even have a real bar here... my town is a life support system for an Air Force base.
    I dont know, I've never been... and I dont think I'd accept a gig at those places either. It'd be FUN to dance around the poles - SURE - but I'd be sooo beat up and dead afterwards. lol


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