Thread: Dancing to the music

I came across this article that someone else had posted on a different forum and I agree so strongly with it I had to post it here.

The article is by Hossam Ramzy and he is talking about how dancers need to follow the music. What really impressed me is how he stated that a dancer is a part of the orchestra. This is exactly what my teacher Princess Madiha has stated all along almost word for word!

http://www.hossamramzy.com/dance/dance_been1.htm

www.princessmadiha.com

I've been trying to figure out why some people don't dance to the music.
Do they not hear the music?
Do they just not think it's important to dance to the music?

It astonishs me how many people compliment me on the fact that I dance to the music. Well, of course I dance to the music! (I still appreciate the compliments of course). Maybe because I have always thought music and dance were two inseparable things, it's not dancing if it's not to the music.

I was just trying to think if I had ever seen a dance performance done with no music, some sort high-art modern dance thing. Hmm. Well, Stomp - makes its own music. But there's still music.

Originally Posted by norma

I came across this article that someone else had posted on a different forum and I agree so strongly with it I had to post it here.

www.princessmadiha.com

Here's my problem with the last link....
Princess Madiha thinks it is something innately connected to your nationality.
Well, then she later retracts and says you can learn it. But then again, it is her special talent to interpret the music (so maybe it's not related to nationality). The way this interview was written makes me nuts. I'm sure it just needs a little editing to make her points more clear.

"You see, the Arabic dancer - not all of them, I'm talking about the real artists, the ones born with talent - when she is dancing, she is preparing her body for the next sentence of the music. She knows when this part of the music is going to end and when the next part will begin. The American girl does not know the music as well, and does not know when [the sentence] begins and when it ends, so she will be behind a split second"

Why can't the American girl know when the music is going to begin/end? With enough experience with the music, wouldn't the ability to predict the music be equal? (well, as much as one could predict any music - if they couldn't do it with the music they grow up with, who says they could do it with foreign music)

and then there is
"When the American dancer dances with a CD or a tape she doesn't make any mistakes because she knows the song; she choreographed it and knows when it begins and ends. When she dances with a live band to the same song that she knows from her CD, it will be different. It will have one beat more or one beat less. She has to be prepared for that."

I agree with the concept but not with the generalization of Americans. What does she know? Many American dancers are trained in improvisation. I wouldn't have used "The American Dancer" here - I would have said "The strictly choreographed dancer" perhaps.

She admits that you can learn it but I think she makes too many generalizations. Let's also notice that there are more than just Arabic vs. American dancers. There are also German, Japanese, Brazillian, etc dancers.

Other than these small points, I totally agree with dancing with feeling, letting your body make the interpretation, and all that.

More in response to the second link - this explains why I made that dig about "talent" because I think it's a dangerous word - see below.
I kept noticing that she was referencing her innate talents, born with a certain talent, that some dancers have talent....etc...and it reminded me of a recent study that was done on kids.

I don't think teachers should emphasize innate talents and in-born abilities so much. It's discouraging to people who may not have the talents, and to the talented, they may believe they do not have to work as hard. Studies showed that students on tests did better on a 2nd test (that they were told was "harder") when they were told they "worked hard" and were complimented on how they tried to solve problems. They did less well on the second test when they were complimented on their "natural ability" and innate intelligence. Also, the talented may be so afraid of ever showing that they do not have or lost the talent that they become afraid to take risks (another reason the children did poorly on teh 2nd test - fear of failure and disappointing the adults - the adults emphasized the important thing was that they aced the test. The other children were told that the important thing was that they put effort into it.)

Here's some links to blogs about the study - I can't find the NY Times article right now:
http://lichuan.wordpress.com/2007/02/16/praise/

http://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/...ld-never-hear/

I agree that article doesn't express Madiha's real opinions very well. She is Syrian and has very broken English. She is not saying an American girl can't learn the music. I'm an American and she considers me to be her best student and a top dancer.

Her point is that we aren't raised with the music so we don't know all the nuances of it. Arabic rhythms are different than Western rhythms. Many can't tell the difference between debke, saidi, beledi or maqsoum. If you don't know and recognize the rhythm it's going to be a lot harder for you to follow it.

When I first started with Madiha she would always tell me I was out of beat. I would get so frustrated. I finally figured out that she was hearing something different than what I was hearing. I was trying to fit the Arabic rhythms into my American world of 4/4. I come from a very strong music background and I still had difficulty following the beat in the beginning because it was new to me. Even now, when I'm learning a new song, I have to listen to it over and over and over again to learn the different rhythms and complexities of the music.

Also, because we aren't raised with the music, we will often miss the emotional connection of the song.

For instance, how many dancers dance to Alf Leila? How many dancers have listened to the entire original song that is approximately an hour long and know where all the various parts we dance to come from? It takes years and years of study to develop that kind of background if you weren't raised with it. When Madiha dances to an Oum Khoulsoum song, she hears the original in her head. To her it's a link to her past, a fond memory. That kind of experience brings an emotion and sense of feeling that few dancers can ever achieve no matter how skilled they are technically.

That is why the biggest criticism a ME person can say about a dancer is that she has no feeling and she's not following the music. The plain truth of the matter is many don't.

Nepenthe,
I'm with you as far as the whole notion of "innate talents"...I'll always believe that nurture trumps nature. The whole "I'm born with it" attitude does not hold water...the reason Arab dancers possess a unique intimacy with the music is cultural and linguistic.

However, for this same reason I do believe that an Arab dancer dancing to Arabic music will be able to interpret the music with far more depth and nuance than I could ever hope to. Without fluency in Arabic and long experience living and working in the culture (not necessarily overseas but among Arab people), I think it is impossible for us non-Arab dancers to really approach the level of intimacy that Arab dancers have with their music.

But I also believe that non-Arab performers can learn and get closer to that "emic" or insider perspective on the dance, again, with lots of study and first-hand exposure to the culture(s). (If that isn't the case, I should probably give up right now!!!) ,r:;

Best wishes,
Nisaa

[QUOTE=Nepenthe;27454]Here's my problem with the last link....
.

"You see, the Arabic dancer - not all of them, I'm talking about the real artists, the ones born with talent - when she is dancing, she is preparing her body for the next sentence of the music. She knows when this part of the music is going to end and when the next part will begin. The American girl does not know the music as well, and does not know when [the sentence] begins and when it ends, so she will be behind a split second"

Why can't the American girl know when the music is going to begin/end? With enough experience with the music, wouldn't the ability to predict the music be equal? (well, as much as one could predict any music - if they couldn't do it with the music they grow up with, who says they could do it with foreign music)

and then there is
"When the American dancer dances with a CD or a tape she doesn't make any mistakes because she knows the song; she choreographed it and knows when it begins and ends. When she dances with a live band to the same song that she knows from her CD, it will be different. It will have one beat more or one beat less. She has to be prepared for that."

I agree with the concept but not with the generalization of Americans. What does she know? Many American dancers are trained in improvisation. I wouldn't have used "The American Dancer" here - I would have said "The strictly choreographed dancer" perhaps.

She admits that you can learn it but I think she makes too many generalizations. Let's also notice that there are more than just Arabic vs. American dancers. There are also German, Japanese, Brazillian, etc dancers.

Hi, Nisima here,
I've written articles on GS and I've posted my thoughts on "improvisation" - basically, yes, of course American dancers can "learn" the music and there are American dancers trained in improvisation but not as many teachers include it as before (and I'm talking 20 years ago when I was a baby belly dancer). With the advent of so many choreo videos out there, the impression is that American dancers like choreod pieces, and I'm talking solos here; no one will argue against choreo for duet or troupe pieces. The US is a huge market for choreo videos but I've never bought one and never wanted to.
So, while the "Americans don't make mistakes because they choreo to tapes" may be an over-generalization, there is more than a grain of truth there! We should do a poll thread: How do dancers feel most comfortable performng - in choreo or improvisation to live music and where are they from, hmmmmmm..Nisima drumming fingers on desk....

just an observation:

as Arabic dancers, any dancer hears the music differently. I relate to music this way, you may not. No big deal, but people may not "hear" the music in the same way, or interpret it the same, even if they have absolutely the same background. If it were true that every Arabic dancer heard the music the same way they would dance it the same way, and they don't.

The same goes for everyone, I may choose to interpret the melody line, or the rhythm, etc, in a song. While I may not understand how another dancer interprets it (or be understood for that matter), it's totally how s/he hears it.

And that's not wrong.

Wrong would be not understanding the basic rhythms and how they are strung together and not understanding how that relates to the music. Not anyone's interpretation of it, because that's an internal thing.

Originally Posted by kina

just an observation:

as Arabic dancers, any dancer hears the music differently. I relate to music this way, you may not. No big deal, but people may not "hear" the music in the same way, or interpret it the same, even if they have absolutely the same background. If it were true that every Arabic dancer heard the music the same way they would dance it the same way, and they don't.

The same goes for everyone, I may choose to interpret the melody line, or the rhythm, etc, in a song. While I may not understand how another dancer interprets it (or be understood for that matter), it's totally how s/he hears it.

And that's not wrong.

Wrong would be not understanding the basic rhythms and how they are strung together and not understanding how that relates to the music. Not anyone's interpretation of it, because that's an internal thing.

I agree with the vast majority of what you say, but I do think it's possible for interpretation to be entirely wrong if the dancer isn't aware of the lyrics/cultural background of the song and just dances according to what the music tells her/him--that "emic" content Nisaa mentioned. That doesn't mean that the dancing isn't lovely or entertaining in some regards, but it is potentially wrong in the sense of not matching the music, any more than doing cane to a chiftetelli would match the music.

Probably we're going in tiny circles at this point anyway and meaning more or less the same thing :Awink:

What about the dancers who believe with all their hearts they are hearing the music and they aren't? The dancers we see in shows who have been dancing for years and still don't have it. How do you politely tell them they need to hear the muisc?

Well, have a little pity here... how many Middle Eastern bands are in my area? One. And they have just started; they have one oudist and the rest percussion. How much experience am I going to get dancing to live ME music? Pretty much none!

In this way the "native" dancers have a huge advantage over me. If they want to listen to live ME music and hear many interpretations of common tunes, I bet they just have to go out! Or turn on a radio station to listen 24/7!

Obviously the more experience you have with the music you are trying to interpret, the better your interpretations will be. Does that mean they are "better dancers" than, I dunno, insert name of American dancer here? Not necessarily. There are too many things that go into being "a better dancer".

Now, if we were to be bellydancing to Eric Clapton's "Layla" instead of "Alf Leila Wa Leila", I suspect I would have an advantage there on interpretation, having heard that song (roughly) a gazillion times....

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

I agree with the vast majority of what you say, but I do think it's possible for interpretation to be entirely wrong if the dancer isn't aware of the lyrics/cultural background of the song and just dances according to what the music tells her/him--that "emic" content Nisaa mentioned. That doesn't mean that the dancing isn't lovely or entertaining in some regards, but it is potentially wrong in the sense of not matching the music, any more than doing cane to a chiftetelli would match the music.

Probably we're going in tiny circles at this point anyway and meaning more or less the same thing :Awink:

I think we are kinda going in tiny circles; I took this thread to mean dancers "dancing to music" in the sense that they understand the structure of the musical phrase as opposed to just staying with the beat. I wasn't even dealing with the actual lycrics and cultural interpretation of the song, that's another matter. Of couse Arabic speaking dancers would I think have a tremendous advantage there, just as we would with American rock songs - the humor, the language, all that.

But I have seen so many dancers who do not "dance to the music"; they have problems mainly with phrasing and accents becuase they aren't familiar enough with structure of ME music; they are just, I think, learning steps and doing one after another after another, etc. Then, if they have a different version, even CD, of a song they know, they have a hard time. I think this is because of relying on choreo too much.
And of course, live music forces the issue, doesn't it, it was always "sink or swim" in those Arabic club gigs - you either could dance to those musician's songs or hasta la vista, baby! But it is possible to learn to "dance to the music" by challenging oneself to dance to different versions of same song, or do a favorite choreo to completely different music and see what happens. I've never been a proponent of the theory of "I was born into the culture so automatically I can dance" - that is not always the case, but it does mean the culture/language nuances are understood.
Bottomline, there are more than one component to what makes a good dancer!

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

I agree with the vast majority of what you say, but I do think it's possible for interpretation to be entirely wrong if the dancer isn't aware of the lyrics/cultural background of the song and just dances according to what the music tells her/him--that "emic" content Nisaa mentioned. That doesn't mean that the dancing isn't lovely or entertaining in some regards, but it is potentially wrong in the sense of not matching the music, any more than doing cane to a chiftetelli would match the music.

Probably we're going in tiny circles at this point anyway and meaning more or less the same thing :Awink:

That is true, and no argument from me. Someone dancing to the call to prayer would be awful, for example.

And I wasn't clear, I'm not Arabic.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

What about the dancers who believe with all their hearts they are hearing the music and they aren't? The dancers we see in shows who have been dancing for years and still don't have it. How do you politely tell them they need to hear the muisc?

Well, I know several like this. It's ultimately up to them, and nothing anyone can do about it. You don't have to tell them they don't hear the music, if they don 't ask.

By up to them, I mean that had they the ability to learn that skill, they might have applied themselves. And maybe they don't have that ability.

Presumably, they have teachers, if the teachers haven't told them...,m::

Originally Posted by Michelle75

What about the dancers who believe with all their hearts they are hearing the music and they aren't? The dancers we see in shows who have been dancing for years and still don't have it. How do you politely tell them they need to hear the muisc?

I agree with Kina. Unless they ask, or pay you to teach them, you don't tell them anything. (but you have my permission to skip their restaurant shows and go potty during their hafla performances)...g.:

or at a workshop show, go shopping! ..l;,

Originally Posted by Michelle75

What about the dancers who believe with all their hearts they are hearing the music and they aren't? The dancers we see in shows who have been dancing for years and still don't have it. How do you politely tell them they need to hear the muisc?

I have a friend like that. She says that she dances to the melody, and not the drum. Which is okay - except for when you have a drum solo. Actually it's not really okay. Perfect example - she used an upbeat pop song and did floorwork to it, with sword balancing. The beat was going really fast - and she was moving really slow. It was just like - why don't you use a chifte or if you wanted something modern, at least something slow and mysterious? And it's not like her teacher doesn't teach this stuff - her teacher is one of the best in the country. She seems enormously happy when she dances, and since she isn't a professional dancer, I think it's fine - it's not likely at this point that she's going to be able to hear the music the way the rest of us do if she hasn't yet.

I do have friends that have asked me how I hear the music and all I can say is that I listen to a lot of music, and I analyze it as I listen to it, trying to listen to just one instrument for a while, figuring out what the pattern and structure is. Maybe because I played an instrument as a child. Or I always say for hearing the "one", I thank marching band for that - we had to march on the beat of the drummer. I remember at first I couldn't figure out the more complicated patterns and would be off, but after 4 years of colorguard, I figured it out. There wasn't a eureka moment - it just takes a lot of listening.

I still have trouble with 9/8s though. I understand them conceptually but I end up losing the beat after a few measures.

I think we are kinda going in tiny circles; I took this thread to mean dancers "dancing to music" in the sense that they understand the structure of the musical phrase as opposed to just staying with the beat. I wasn't even dealing with the actual lycrics and cultural interpretation of the song, that's another matter.

However, you can't have one without the other...i.e., it's difficult at best to have a full understanding of the musical phrasing without knowing the lyrics and cultural interpretation behind the song. Most of the instrumental compositions that dancers use originally included vocals, so a great deal of the melodic phrasing is just an instrumental representation of what the vocalist would have been singing. A dancer can understand the musical phrasing and what might be good accompanying movements...for example, I've got X counts of nay taqsim, so I'm going to do movements like 8s, undulations,etc. But without knowing that that particular nay taqsim is actually a stand-in for Farid Al Atrache singing a mawwal about his lost love, something critically important is going to be missing from this dance. We can understand rhythms, maqam, phrasing, etc. but that is just one component of a full interpretation of an Arabic composition.

Best wishes,
Nisaa

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

But without knowing that that particular nay taqsim is actually a stand-in for Farid Al Atrache singing a mawwal about his lost love, something critically important is going to be missing from this dance. We can understand rhythms, maqam, phrasing, etc. but that is just one component of a full interpretation of an Arabic composition.

Best wishes,
Nisaa

But the plaintive sounds of the nay should evoke those kinds of emotions and, therefore, physical responses anyway, even if the origins of that segment and corresponding lyrics are not understood. Most of the time, the music "speaks" the language and that's what the dancer should be picking up on. That's what music and dance is all about.

Originally Posted by vilia

But the plaintive sounds of the nay should evoke those kinds of emotions and, therefore, physical responses anyway, even if the origins of that segment and corresponding lyrics are not understood. Most of the time, the music "speaks" the language and that's what the dancer should be picking up on. That's what music and dance is all about.

However, that's assuming nay = sad, lonely, etc. and that's not always what it represents. I wouldn't know what emotion to project in any taqsim unless I knew the meaning of the larger composition.

Cheers,
Nisaa

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

But without knowing that that particular nay taqsim is actually a stand-in for Farid Al Atrache singing a mawwal about his lost love, something critically important is going to be missing from this dance.

I agree that this helps enormously. Hugely. Sometimes it's a lot of work, because I usually have to track down a translation WITH a tranliteration AND a version of the song with lyrics before I can figure out what part of the song is what, but there have been times I've done the work & it's been worth it.

OTOH, if a piece of music is well-written, well-arranged, and performed well, then the ney that's standing in for Farid's mawwal *ought* to sound plenty plaintive & be filled with lost-love-pining emotion. Cuz if it doesn't, then it's not doing a good job of standing in!

Personally, I found it hard to *read* ME music at first. All fast music sounded happy, all slow music sad. Working with a lot of translated lyrics has helped me to get a better 'feel' for the emotional content of the music. (not that I've arrived yet, I still have loads of work to do in that area!)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Personally, I found it hard to *read* ME music at first. All fast music sounded happy, all slow music sad. Working with a lot of translated lyrics has helped me to get a better 'feel' for the emotional content of the music. (not that I've arrived yet, I still have loads of work to do in that area!)

Which raises another interesting thought...when we're hearing ME music with Western ears, do we bring a bias regarding what certain combinations of sound mean? For example, when I was first exposed to debke music, the mood of so many songs seemed angry/belligerent, yet in some of those pieces the lyrics were about happiness, fun, life is great, rah rah (kind of like when you hear Arab men having a conversation, and you think their ready to rip one another's heads off, when in fact they are talking something totally mundane and neutral, like what they're going to order for dinner ..c:: ). Many times I have had to revise how I interpret certain tones and combinations of sounds when I listen to ME music vs. Western music.

Nisaa

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

"You see, the Arabic dancer - not all of them, I'm talking about the real artists, the ones born with talent - when she is dancing, she is preparing her body for the next sentence of the music. She knows when this part of the music is going to end and when the next part will begin. The American girl does not know the music as well, and does not know when [the sentence] begins and when it ends, so she will be behind a split second"

This part of the quote from Princess Madiha really interested me because a while back we had a big discussion arising from a workshop Aida Nour gave in the UK where she complained that UK, US and European dancers didn't understand the music because they were always AHEAD of the beat!

Lots of people said that they had been told that Egyptians laid back on the beat and that westerners suffered from anticipating the next part of the music.
..c::

If your dancing to a famous song it can help to know the lyrics and the content of the song. It helps put the song into context. But feeling the music is more than just knowing what the song is about and what emotion it is trying to portray. Many songs that are written just for dancing, like some of the Eygptian musicals don't have lyrics at all. Therefore the music and the instruments playing the music are what the dancer has to work with. I can never dance a song the same way unless it is exactly the same arrangement. Each different arrangement brings something different to the pot. One arrangement may add 2,3,4,,5, 20 instruments while another may take that away. So while you may have the same melody, the same basic beat you have a different piece of music to interpret. You can't ignore it if it isn't there and you can't put it in there if it isn't.

It's hard to describe but it's that extra something that turns someone into a great dancer. For example, I knew one girl who had flawless technique. You could give her a choreo and she could learn the steps and execute it flawlessly. However her dancing was like a robot. When the kanoon played she could shiver and follow the beat but she was missing the little pings and pangs that gave the music depth.

Many girls can do a slow side to side beatifully and it may look like they are right on the rythym but they miss out on the long and short notes that finish the sentence of the music. It's phrasing but on a deeper level. Most of that is not really obvious to the naked eye as it comes from within and is usually so subtle that unless you are looking for it you may miss it.

This was discussed in a different thread not very long ago, and I wasn't sure which camp I was in (can we learn like a native/can we not) until I reached the end of the discussion. I have no idea who said it, but somebody brought up the fact that dancers carry "accents" in the dance, just as you do when speaking a language. This is not necessarily bad, and can be quite charming in fact. (I personally am a sucker for spoken Russian accents)
When I thought about it, this really made sense to me. Before I discovered belly dance, I was in an East Indian dance troop. This left me with an "accent" when improv belly dancing-my natural tendencies were to create Indian styles arms and traveling steps. It did not look bad, and an average audience wouldn't notice, but a trained professional would. I realize I have an "accent" that I would like to eliminate, but that's okay.
I have noticed that even I can spot a girl who has had Tribal style training if she is doing any other form of bellydancing. In a classroom setting, former ballet dancers are also easy to pick out. It's not bad, it's actually kind of like knowing a fun, harmless secret =)
I do not feel that "dancing to the music" is a problem just in belly dance-it's everywhere! We have a terrible problem in my hula troupe when we do live shows-the music isn't the same, and most of the dancers can not handle the subtle changes in phrasing, pauses, tempo, etc. This has nothing to do with some of us being Native Hawaiians or not (we have both) it's just something that seems to be hard for people to do. This is why we have "lead dancers"; to help the rest of the group follow the music correctly.
Is this possibly connected to nationality? I think possibly. I feel even generation can have an effect. For example, I can improv dance to a 10 minute rave song no problem, but I wouldn't have any clue what to do with a 10 minute version of Stairway to Heaven. Could I learn? Possibly. But it will probably be harder for me than for my best friend's father.
I don't think we should be afraid of our dance "accents". I feel they help give birth to new forms of dance. We should be proud of our capabilities as dancers, do our best to find the music no matter what the form, and not constantly compare ourselves to others. Dance style and skin color have a lot in common-you can never make everyone happy with the one you have, so you should work on pleasing yourself.

'

Originally Posted by micamica

I don't think we should be afraid of our dance "accents". I feel they help give birth to new forms of dance. We should be proud of our capabilities as dancers, do our best to find the music no matter what the form, and not constantly compare ourselves to others.
'

Hear hear :zillgallop:

very true, in re: accents. I have a salsa accent when I dance ME.