Thread: "The Odyssey of the Lizard Boy"

Valizan, who generally hangs out at tribe.net, talks about the experience of being a male belly dancer in this article which I recently posted on Shira.net:

The Odyssey Of The Lizard Boy, by Valizan

The gist of it is that male dancers are often treated as oddities or novelties rather than being evaluated on the merits of their dance skills. This rang true with me - many's the time I've seen women screaming over a mediocre male belly dancer just because he was male.

What do others think? Does your dance community treat male dancers like "lizard boys"?

There are very few and they are very well received. Possibly too well received. One of the participants in my research made a very interesting comment about male dancers - she felt we wouldn't be really accepting till a man who was fat started belly dancing locally, "and then we'll get over it and it will just be oh what nice hip flicks or whatever." She had been commenting on how one of the things she enjoyed was the way BD allowed her to look at other women's bodies not in terms of how large someone's bust was or whether she was thin or scarred, but in terms of her nice movements. So my inference from her comment was that she felt that right now, local BDers were too busy looking at the male dancers as *men*, cute ones, rather than just as dancers.

My male student is very talented, and also nice looking and in reasonable shape, so I think people's responses to him are infused first of all with their recognition that he is OMG A CUTE GUY with big shoulders, who also happens to have a rather delicious, not conventionally masculine, stage presence - he gets this cat-that-got-the-cream face, which goes nicely with his fluid movements (he's Malaysian) - and nice musicality and technique.

So, he is a good dancer and gets deserved praise for that, but there is also a tendency for BDers who are not used to him to get a bit squealy. On the other hand, I've heard negative responses to exactly the same qualities from non-BDing women in a non-BD setting, because they just can't get their heads around a male belly dancer in a choli.

You know when I was new to dance, I had a time getting over the fact that the dancer was male, it just didn't register in my limited experience at the time - "it's a dude, and he's dancing" was all I could think for about 3/4 of the dance - then I would think 'oh well that was a neat move, that's pretty good, oops the dance is over.' After I saw Raffa dance in Dallas, (the show on Friday before the first Dina Appearance in the US), I was cured of that! He was amazing! I was unhappy that my first instructor had told me not to study with him because 'there was nothing to gain from a male dancer' Ha! Man I wish I had studied with him! I hope to in the future. So given all the new people who join the dance and then drop out, I'm sure it does feel like Lizard Boy. Hopefully in the future with more renouned male dancers coming to light, things will get better and instructors will be more supportive of male instructors and dancers. I know I will!

Here's to all the men of belly dance out there!

KS

Originally Posted by zumarrad

They just can't get their heads around a male belly dancer in a choli.

I'm quite accustomed to seeing male dancers, but I think I'd have trouble getting my head around one in a choli, simply because a choli is a woman's garment. I've never liked man-bras on male belly dancers, and I'd see a choli in the same light.

I don't have a problem with male dancers who are fully in drag, complete with hair, makeup, etc. and "dancing as a woman". It's the "dancing as a man but wearing a man-bra or choli" that would look wrong to me.

Well, this dancer uses a choli-type top when dancing with women in class choreographies where they are wearing bedleh, because he wants to tone in with the others, iis not comfortable going shirtless, and he finds that the cut-away look of the sleeveless ones flatter his shoulders, while the ties in back make the garments accommodating to weight gain and loss. He doesn't like waistcoats because they look like Aladdin. He'll wear pants of a similar volume to the girls' skirts. However, dancing solo, he generally wears singlet-type tops and pants with a hip belt or scarf.

This raises the old aesthetic question of what men should wear. I don't think it's fair to put the single male in a dance in a radically different costume (unless it's folkloric) because it draws more attention to him than he may warrant or want. If I let a male student wear a covering onepiece in a class dance, then I also have to let a female student wear a dress if she wants. And then you get into that mishmash look of dancers wearing random stuff, and it looks BAD.

My teacher was all about selecting costuming that shows off your good bits, and I am also really into promoting this to students. So I now have a male student who, in costuming himself for solo work, is looking at what bits he likes to show off and what bits he doesn't, just like the women do. As a male. He likes his shoulders and he also likes his legs. So what do you do - say no you're not allowed to wear cholis or split pants because they might look "feminine"? He's already an Asian gay man doing belly dancing, he's automatically a bit "other" and "exotic" anyway.

Choli - OK as long as he takes out the bust darts!!!!

shira - How do you find time to post in stereo - lol!!

When I first heard of male belly dancers, I thought NO WAY Josephine but after seeing Khaled Mahmoud and being taught by him, shrug..talent overcomes all.Why not come out from the classroom and backstage ?
I still have the odd reserve and on reflection, this often down to costuming. I really don't know who is going to crack that one.
Tito is safe in his gelabeya, Ozgen sets my pulses racing in his rumpled suit and ruffled shirt but bare chests and man-bras and some cholis just look so wrong to my eyes.
However don't we women get it sooo wrong sometimes?
Male have big hurdles to climb: should they do "orientale" in performance at all, should they be lusted over rather than admired, are they novelty or normal entertainer?
Well they have a mountain to climb and girls, don't we understand that...we who waited to own property after marriage, to vote, to get equal wages, play golf and soccer.
Good luck guys, you'll get there just don't expect it to be easy and remember no one loves a winger especially when he is doing what he loves.

I do think that, locally, male bellydancers have been fawned over for being male rather than their talent. But that does seem to be changing, as more male dancers enter the scene. I think the same has happened for female bellydancers, only earlier - 15 years ago here there were few pro bellydancers, so they really didn't have to be that good to get a gig (though some were very good). Now, however, there's so many dancers that the bar has been raised significantly. I can see the same thing happening for male dancers as their numbers grow.

I find the female reaction (including my own) to hawt male dancers has helped me understand the whole bellydance-is-sexy-vs-art thing. I used to be quite uncomfortable with the idea of guys ogling me when I danced or finding me sexy. But, having got excited over male bellydancers myself (!), I can see now how you can appreciate both their skill and their fine physique. It makes me realise that you can find a performer sensually alluring and still respect them as a performing artist, and that there's nothing inheritently wrong with being attractive to your audience!

One thing I do hate is seeing male bellydancers using their sexuality as a chief feature of their performance. I really don't like a man rubbing a female audience-member's hand down his sweaty body just to make the girls squeal. At least, not outside of a hen's party. It's as offensive as a female bellydancer polishing a bald guy's head with her shaking tits.

Adding more thoughts...I think I do still cut male bellydancers more slack. I guess I admire them all the more if they have achieved a good level of dance in a field where they do face discrimination. Just as I would probably admire a female who became a judge or someone of an ethnic minority who obtained a PHD.

But I'm still not gonna think well of a crap dancer just because they're male!

I've been very fortunate to have been exposed very early on in my dance education to male belly dancers - in fact, Jim Boz was one of my very first workshops! I love seeing how this dance varies when performed by multiple body types, and adding men into the mix makes it even more interesting to me. I appreciate the physical beauty of many male dancers, but then again I do with the female ones as well.

That said, I think the only time I get perturbed is when I see obviously student-level male dancers given performance opportunities that are really more appropriate for professional dancers. And I find it interesting and a little icky that a couple of male dancers I know advertise quite prominently that they are available for bachelorette parties.

when i started, there was already an amazing male in my class, so i never had to 'wrap my head around it', especially since it was hammered in early that men traditionally danced 'over there', so every time i saw a new male on stage.....i went in with an eye toward technique and presence

also, when i started, one of my first BD stage shows was ibrahim farrah and his troupe, that show left a major impression and loved what i saw........also, morocco always brought a wonderful male dancer named sergio on, so all her stage shows involved a male dancer, keeping it in context and cultural.....every one........so i guess my experiences never really saw men as an oddity........

when i got back into dancing in MD, i got a chance to meet 2 local male dancers at a hafla, rodrigo and mark balahadia.....who were WONDERFUL......the crowd was on their feet, but because they ROCKED!..........

I do think male dancers in most forms of dance get fawned over more. (maybe not in hip hop) certainly in ballet and modern. There is for them much less competion to deal with so with fair skills they can progress faster.
That being said I have no problem with male dancers in any dance form. I do have a problem with them dressing in ladies costumes unless they intend to do it in drag. Heck even male ice skaters have the male version of the skating costume in the pairs. If your a male then make it your own!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I'm quite accustomed to seeing male dancers, but I think I'd have trouble getting my head around one in a choli, simply because a choli is a woman's garment. I've never liked man-bras on male belly dancers, and I'd see a choli in the same light.

I don't have a problem with male dancers who are fully in drag, complete with hair, makeup, etc. and "dancing as a woman". It's the "dancing as a man but wearing a man-bra or choli" that would look wrong to me.

Oops, I have a choli I have started wearing. .w.:

But I should give a little background before I defend my costuming choice. ..g.:

I started out in The Society For Creative Anachronism which is a medieval reenactment group that seeks to learn about the middle ages by dressing and acting the part. In the SCA is a subset that studies the Medieval Middle East since there was a LOT of interaction between the east and Europe.

One of the things I've learned is that the medieval equivalent of the Choli would have been worn by both men and women. I apologize for not having the reference on hand, I thought it was in my Art And Architecture of Islam book, or in my Art Of The Persian Courts book, but I can't find it. I remember seeing a portly Mughal dignitary wearing one in an illumination. For those of you who know dancer Asim, he was the one who found the documentation of men wearing cholis.

Because I want my ATS troupe, Shades Of Araby, to match as well as possible, I sport a choli on the occasion.

Here is a pic of us in our cholis:
http://shadesofaraby.valizan.com/images/Mishmash08.jpg

I have found it flattering to my particular body (Wide shoulders, barrel chest) and just makes our troupe look more uniform. (Not to mention it is part of the ATS uniform.)

While I understand the classic use of the choli has been under a sari, I don't feel we are violating any traditions when I see many Raks dancers using Cholis as practice gear sans Sari as a cover-up.

But, as always, my dear Shira, to each their own taste.

Originally Posted by jewelbellydance

I do think that, locally, male bellydancers have been fawned over for being male rather than their talent. But that does seem to be changing, as more male dancers enter the scene.

::snipped::

One thing I do hate is seeing male bellydancers using their sexuality as a chief feature of their performance. I really don't like a man rubbing a female audience-member's hand down his sweaty body just to make the girls squeal. At least, not outside of a hen's party. It's as offensive as a female bellydancer polishing a bald guy's head with her shaking tits.

I totally agree with both of these points.

That whole rubbing a female hand down the body thing is only worse when it is uninvited. I've had that happen to me (and much, much worse...) and I am never sure how to react other than to back quickly away.

I am in no way a fan of guys who think being a male bellydancer is about behaving like a Chippendales dancer. I think guys who are new and don't know any better think that is what it is all about.

Nothing irritates me more that seeing a guy on stage doing rather vulgar foreward crotch thrusts with his hands behind his head.

Wait, I take that back, one of the things that irritates me more is the audience reaction that encourages it.

With what few males students I have, I encourage them to realize that behaving like a stripper is not what I am trying to teach them. If they want to be a stripper, they need to come out of my class. I can teach them to be sensuous men, but I WON'T teach them to be overtly erotic. There are better teachers than me for that. ..l;,

However, my big worry is that North American audiences will come to expect that from a male dancer.

I am also really hoping for the day when there are enough quality male dancers that none of this is an issue. We will be looked on as our female counterparts, without having to extract our masculinity if we choose to display ourselves that way.

Originally Posted by laura 2

That said, I think the only time I get perturbed is when I see obviously student-level male dancers given performance opportunities that are really more appropriate for professional dancers. And I find it interesting and a little icky that a couple of male dancers I know advertise quite prominently that they are available for bachelorette parties.

Galatea izzat you? ..g.:

Just as female dancers shouldn't do bachelor parties, I don't think males should do bachelorettes. Sends the wrong impression about the art we are doing. You don't see ballet or flamenco at these parties, and we will never get treated any better if we continue to pander, even if it does offer some pay.

Yes, students need to get some dance experience, but that doesn't need to be the way.

I also think it's important for female dancers to be consistent in the ways they respond to other dancers who they enjoy watching. The whole time I've been dancing I've been used to a general focus on "sensual not sexual" from other BDers, both more and less experienced than myself, and a great deal of outrage at the idea of dancers being viewed as sexual objects. But for some reason, all of that would fly out the window if the dancer was a male. People would write reviews of dance shows in Australia (this was back when there weren't really any male dancers in NZ) drooling and dribbling over the male dancer they'd seen, with particular reference to his body and skin and eyes, while referring to female dancers in the more usual terms of how nice their costume was and how lovely their dance was.

Admittedly the male dancer in question was Shiva of Sydney, who I've never seen dance but who is undeniably handsome (and I gather a fairly sexy performer) but the slavering was really tacky. Sure, if you fancy someone you fancy them, but don't complain if you publicly objectify a male dancer and then some man objectifies you. He's not actually a Chippendale.

Originally Posted by Valizan

Galatea izzat you? ..g.:

Sure is! You need to come hang out here more, my friend!

Originally Posted by faaria

I do think male dancers in most forms of dance get fawned over more. (maybe not in hip hop) certainly in ballet and modern. There is for them much less competion to deal with so with fair skills they can progress faster.
That being said I have no problem with male dancers in any dance form. I do have a problem with them dressing in ladies costumes unless they intend to do it in drag. Heck even male ice skaters have the male version of the skating costume in the pairs. If your a male then make it your own!

Hi Faaria,

Part of the problem costuming-wise is that men have no clue where to go for costumes. If we don't sew ourselves or have someone who loves us who will sew for us, we really have few options on what to wear. Where female dancers can buy off the rack or nowadays on the gazillion sites that sell any kind of costume you can name, male dancers don't tend to have that option.

When I go to bellydance festivals, there aren't racks and racks of ready-to-wear for me to choose from.

The other thing is, when people hire professional bellydancers (either sex) they are expecting the sparkly, blingy costume as part of the uniform. Problem is, the people who design most of these costumes don't plan for males. Jim Boz seems to have found some designers who are finally breaking the mold and creating masculine designs.

Guys who dance in a feminine manner, I am hoping are doing so because it is a true expression of their feelings when they dance, not because they feel or have been told they MUST do it that way. And I'm leery of telling people to dress in drag for that very reason. IMHO, men have enough problems with credibility without the added baggage of people wondering why they're dressed up like a woman.

I have yet to see a male dancer in a female costume, and I hope I am spared that particular scarring of my retina. ..l;,

[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2gHKRQMmAuc]YouTube - Jamil belly dancer classical[/ame]

Now I said I didn't like bare chests but I do like this look for male dancers and Jamil is a lovely dancer into the bargain.

Originally Posted by Valizan

Part of the problem costuming-wise is that men have no clue where to go for costumes. If we don't sew ourselves or have someone who loves us who will sew for us, we really have few options on what to wear. Where female dancers can buy off the rack or nowadays on the gazillion sites that sell any kind of costume you can name, male dancers don't tend to have that option.

When I go to bellydance festivals, there aren't racks and racks of ready-to-wear for me to choose from.

I was just mentioning this the other day. I watched a video featuring a male dancer, and I felt the costume choice actually distracted from the dancing, which was quite good. However, I cut male dancers a lot of slack in costuming, for exactly the reason you stated above.

And not only are there few options for buying ready-made costumes, there are so few male dancers that it must be hard to find inspiration for flattering and attractive costumes to be made. I mean, it's comparatively easy for female dancers to get ideas for self-mades; the scads of gorgeous costume pictures on Bhuz alone would likely provide enough inspiration for a lifetime. But a male dancer is many times wading into uncharted territory, especially if he wants to break out of the harem pants/vest mold.

Hey Valizan; here is one to sear your retina and one to check out a costuming variation.
Steven (YouTube video) is under the instruction of the fabulous Sabrina Fox of Atesh Maya (Sabrina formerly of the EDA in San Diego)
Does anyone recognize the "other" in the still photo of Alissa?

I totally agree with the comments about male dancers getting attention above their abilities. Much to much for me to cover in a comment.
By the way, Alissa dances as well as "she" looks.

Alissa
http://www.sheherazade.se/cms_upload...01375a7a99.jpg

Steven
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZQE7gpjsZY]YouTube - Steven Tribal Fusion Bellydance[/ame]

...oh god, I'm so fed up of the "because I'm a guy I want to be recognized".

The dancers mentioned in the article ARE recognized. Jim Boz, Tarik Sultan, Tito.....I could mention Horacio Cifuentes, Rashid of the Salimpour School, Khaled Mahmoud, Aziz and others before I would worry about the issues the dancers mentioned/we are up against today. There is a paved way for us male dancers today when it comes to HOW to make it, if you ask me. Hard work, hard work, hard work - just like anybody else would have to put in. You cant demand recognition and a free pass to the front of the line just because you're a guy and feel that you have "done your share" already.

What interests me is that Valizan demands acceptance for skill and not as a minority, however - he's ridiculously prejudice towards dancers that dont fit his "bill". Frankly, simply being beefy, studly, hairy and having male apendage does not qualify as "masculine" dance. And I will not accept it as such. Just by puffing up your chest and looking angry and moving abruptly - you're not being a masculine dancer. There are certain essentials that have to be maintained whether you're a male or female to qualify as a dancer at all such as posture, body control, centering and flow.

Dance is about movement, movement has different aspects and flavors. Being prejudice against dancers that choose a more feminine expression is just like saying "omg, SHE thinks she's SO hot" to a woman for having her nails done, getting her hair fixed, standing in S curve and wearing makeup.

Equally, like laughing at a man for "walking around like he has pins under his arms".... and dont come here and tell me that you havent thought it yourself when you see those gym jocks walk around with their arms at a miles' distance from their torso...

Fact is, you can not ask for acceptance and be as prejudice as clearly stated by the article author on this thread.

I'm glad to give a dancer recognition for versatility, agility, adaptability, technical skill, esthetics and so forth.... but I refuse to give thumbs up to a dancer just because he has the "guts" to not shave his chest and not pay attention to the mentioned aspects of dance.

Oh, and I'm not offended by the article or what the author states here on this thread - it's just so not inviting to other male dancers to restrict the expression on their behalf. I consider myself very versatile in my expression, so thumbs up to you Valizan for putting yourself out there - just watch your choice of words as your choice of words may be detremental to the cause that you are advocating.

DaVid

I'm with DaVid on discomfort with this limited view of what is acceptably "masculine" for male dancers to do, wear or be. Quite apart from anything else, it's ridiculously Eurocentric. Men in non-Euro cultures will sometimes do things that are not considered "manly" in, say, the US or Australasia or Britain or even France. (Even French and Italian men are ragingly effeminate by the standards of Anglo-Celtic ones!).

I hate to go on about my student, because it feels inappropriate to talk about him publicly, BUT he is Malaysian and his body language is not the same as a regular Kiwi guy. Compared to them he has a more elegant and refined way of moving - and it's not just him as a person for I saw a bunch of Malaysian students, male and female, doing a folk dance once and the men had a remarkable similarity to him in terms of movement quality and facial expressions. So it is cultural. And frankly, this elegance, fluidity and pleasant-facedness in a bunch of stocky young men (in skirt-like garments no less) was quite alluring.

My best friend's Afghan ex used to douse himself in her perfume oils and wander round the house in her floral silk dressing gown. It made him look ridiculously butch.

Tito dances *exactly the same as a woman* and I don't think I've ever seen a less effeminate dancer. You don't see him agonising over being manly enough.

For me personally I do like men dancing in jeans and what you call wifebeaters, but that's because I like men who dress that way and it shows their bodies. Not all men want to dress like that when they dance and they should not have to. Zorba's style of performance dress is not my idea of hot and sexy but a) I know he doesn't give a toss what I think and b) so what? Why can't he wear what he likes as a dancer? *I* can. I have cropped hair and I don't wear fake nails and I can choose from a plethora of costume choices including normal daywear if I want to, as someone who seldom does GP gigs now. I am wearing trousers and flat shoes this minute. It doesn't make me a man or a drag king.