Thread: Greek Belly Dance?

Currently, there seems to be 3 popular theories on Greek Belly Dance, they are:

1) There is a specific Greek style
2) There is no specific Greek style, only "regular" belly dancing to Greek music.
3) Dancing style morphs to whatever music you are using. ie, if you are interpreting the music accurately, you naturally take on the essence of the style of the music being played


If there is a Greek style, what are some of its hallmarks?

Does anyone have a video of what they would call real greek belly dance, not just the same old to greek music?

Is it just belly dance at a faster tempo to match the music?

Your thoughts...

Maria Aya is the best person to answer this question. there is a greek tsifteteli group and she posted a few videos, this is part of her post:

One of my beloved tsiftetelia, Alexandrini Fellaha, meaning Fellaha from Alexandria, danced with an up to today way from young girls

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ1s8KN2c4c[/ame]

O Kaiktsis, the song is more than 60 years old, and very old style of dancing

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtT5luv4tns]YouTube - O KaïxÃ*s - Panagiótis BarbarÃ*ou[/ame]

And another classic, Mes sths Polis to Hamam, inside Istanbul hamam

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMTbt6g8v-Q]YouTube - To Charémi Sto Chamam - Manolis Dimitrianákis[/ame]

And another great example

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sBw4HulVk4]YouTube - Old Ano Kato With Belly Dancer[/ame]

From what I understand, Chiftitelli isn't a belly dance per se, but is a specific folk dance done with a partner.

Belly dance adopted the music ( a slower version), but not necessarily the folk dance.

Perhaps someone out there could clarify this???

In the second clip, it seems to me like a really raw and simple dance, with some identifible BD moves.

The third clip, just seems like AmCAB to Greek music.

it is both. tsifteteli is the word greeks use for bellydancing.

chifteteli is the folk dance. or at least that's what all my folk dance instructors told me. and it is done with partners. we performed it as a kind of handkerchief dance where the women were "teasing" the men, hiding their eyes. and then at some point in the dance, the men would claim the handkerchief as if they had won the women or at least given their intentions.

It seems to me that mainly greek style is faster, to faster music. Not as many ooey gooey movements. My first teacher danced with a greek band and this is what it seemed like to me.
So I agree with theory 3

I'm certainly no expert on this topic. But over the years I've read the same info so many times from so many different sources that I've come to certain conclusions (which I'll revise instantly if Maria Aya or some other knowledgeable resource knocks me down).

There is a Greek style of bellydance in the same way there's an American style, a British style, a New Zealand or Japanese style. Women in Greece take bellydance classes and infuse the dance with a bit of their own cultural ideas about femininity, music, stage presence etc. just like we all do.

But bellydance is not native to Greece. In the US, where greek restaurants in major cities attracted a lot of immigrants from Turkey, Lebanon and the Middle East (anyone who wanted some flatbread and baklava!), live music and bellydance became a popular attraction, and lots of Americans first encountered bellydance here. (perhaps other Western countries as well? I don't know).

In Greece, tourists sometimes expect to see bellydancers in the tavernas, so it's sometimes presented there (much to the confusion of the locals).

Greeks don't consider Tsiftitelli a form of bellydance (though it may be the closes living relative).

Maria Aya is a lover of Egyptian style and old-school Lebanese as taught by Suha Azar. I don't think she does Greek bellydance any more than I do American bellydance. (which is to say kinda, but not always on purpose).

Because Greek restaurants are a big market for bellydancers (especially in cities that are too small to have Egyptian or Lebanese restaurants, where the Greek restaurants still draw that larger immigrant crowd) we do wind up bellydancing to Greek music. I'd guess that Turkish-style dance would be the easiest crossover?

3) Dancing style morphs to whatever music you are using. ie, if you are interpreting the music accurately, you naturally take on the essence of the style of the music being played

Good point. The limited Greek music I've been exposed to is so Bouzoukish and shimmyish, and fast! I don't see how you could possibly do, say, Modern Cairo style to it. (some of the music I've heard is slow and dreamy in an Om K way, but I don't know how danceable that kind is).

I don't know that I believe in theory #3 in any case. Just because you are playing a Salsa-style song and belly dancing to it, doesn't make your belly dance Latin flavored or salsa. Nor would the general (uneducated in latin dances) BDer understand the styling that salsa-fies a dance. I don't know that that theory would work across the board.

Say that someone was doing Amcab styling and they increase their dance tempo to "fit" Greek music, does it cease to be Amcab belly dance and morph into Greek-style belly dancing, when it is only belly dance to greek music? Not sure that tempo would be the only factor that would separate a style from another.

Goods points too, Lauren.

In one of the clips, there seems to be a fusion of styles, a lil' belly dance with more of something else. The music in the clip is chiftitelli, but it doesn't seem to be the folk dance in context.

No, I agree that it's not Greek bellydance because it's adjusted to fit the Greek music.

I guess what I was thinking was that if a large number of bellydancers are performing to Greek music in Greek restaurants, there may be some common characteristics to their dancing because of the music. i.e. it's fast, there are lots of shimmies, etc.

So if there is something you can call a Greek style that has developed in that environment, the style will have been shaped by the Greek music.

(I'm not convinced that there is a well-defined Greek style, though. I think there may only be 'bellydancing to Greek music')

I see your point...

At some point in the past, Houston had a lot of Greek clubs along Houston's ship channel. So, many of the dancers from that era, say that they teach Greek style in addition to "Egyptian" style.

Where I began to dance in Seattle, most teachers agreed that there was no specific Greek style. This was also expressed to me by a popular Greek belly dancer I studied under for a while.

So, I'm trying to make some sense of the conflicting messages.

I do plan to talk to one of my fellow dancers that claims Greek styling and ask her what that means to her.

Perhaps someone on Bhuz could make a case for Greek style...

According to Chris Kalogerson, a musician who has played the Greek restaurant circuit for many decades, the phenomenon of Greek restaurants in the U.S. offering belly dance arose in the 1950's. This phenomenon did NOT come from Greece. It came from ethnic Greeks who were expelled from Egypt in the decade following the 1952 revolution.

Shortly following the 1952 revolution, the new Egyptian government decided that Egypt should be owned by the Egyptians, so it did stuff like seizing restaurants, seizing assets of the movie industry, etc. At one time, there were many Greek-owned restaurants and nightclubs in Alexandria, and those clubs included belly dancers as performers. When the Egyptian government seized the businesses, the Greeks left Egypt and started over in other countries, including the U.S. These Greeks tended to hire belly dancers for their restaurants.

For the most part, belly dancers in this style might use music with some fusion elements, just because the New World musicians available to them tended to be from multiple cultures - Greek, Armenian, Lebanese, Turkish, Egyptian, etc. There was a tendency to favor musicians who could play Greek music so that Greeks who lived in the community could have the opportunity to get up and do Greek folk dances.

Anna, I'm thinking the dancers in your community who claim to do "Greek style" really mean, "the style that the Greek restaurant owners in our specific city wanted us to do". For example, when I lived in California, there was a Greek restaurant that insisted that all of its dancers must do floor work in order to stay employed, and therefore in our community the notion arose that floor work was part of Greek style. No, it was just part of what that particular restaurant owner wanted.

Aside from everything I said above, yes, it's true that there is a folk dance in Greece known as "tsiftetelli" which is a social dance based on belly dance moves, just as raqs baladi in Egypt is a the social dance upon which raqs sharqi is based.

Thanks Shira - your info is very helpful.

Do you have or know of an online resource for the origins of tsiftetelli or how the slower chiftitelli music/rhythm found it's way to raqs sharki and has now become a common section of our modern performance set?

From the statement above - would it be too much of an assumption, that the Greeks living in Egypt influenced dancers and musicians of the Golden era or perhaps even earlier than that?

the Chicken or the egg, which came first, and who influenced whom in re: to chiftitelli as we know it?

For example, when I lived in California, there was a Greek restaurant that insisted that all of its dancers must do floor work in order to stay employed, and therefore in our community the notion arose that floor work was part of Greek style. No, it was just part of what that particular restaurant owner wanted.

I danced in a Greek restaurant for awhile and the owner loved floorwork, which I didn't do because his floors were, uh, not clean. While I don't think that floorwork is part and parcel of "Greek belly dance," I've noticed it tends to be popular with Greek crowds and musicians. And floorwork is basically not done in the area I live in.

The place I danced had an odd mix of an AmCab performance to Greek music and then me socializing with Greek families and doing more traditional dances with them afterward in my rock star clothes. It was a long night for me but I always had a lot of fun. I'm Greek but didn't grow up in the church so it was always fun to get a little community.

My understanding is that there is no specific "Greek style" of BD; it's BD to Greek music which, yes, does tend to be pretty darn fast when played for dancers, as opposed to many folk dances, which tend to be of a bit slower pace. Please note that the remarks re: tempo are generalizations.

I like Greek music for BDing because it is usually fast and lively -- except for those pieces that aren't, of course!

Deborah

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Thanks Shira - your info is very helpful.

Do you have or know of an online resource for the origins of tsiftetelli or how the slower chiftitelli music/rhythm found it's way to raqs sharki and has now become a common section of our modern performance set?

From the statement above - would it be too much of an assumption, that the Greeks living in Egypt influenced dancers and musicians of the Golden era or perhaps even earlier than that?

the Chicken or the egg, which came first, and who influenced whom in re: to chiftitelli as we know it?

I don't think it would have come from Egypt, mainly because I've never heard it used in Egyptian music. There is no chiftitelli in raks sharki, but it's commonly part of an American Cabaret style set.

Chiftitelli as a rhythm (not the dance) comes to us through Turkish music. Turkish/Greek history and culture are very mingled, although there's still so much animosity that most Greeks want to deny it.

But Chiftitelli is done in Turkey and it's the Turkish dancers who bring us the Chifti rhythm AND extensive floorwork. And veilwork (though not as elaborately as most Americans do it. I would suspect that most Greeks have seen mostly Turkish bellydancers and few, if any, Egyptian ones, so they'd expect bellydancing to be done Turkish style.

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Thanks Shira - your info is very helpful.

Do you have or know of an online resource for the origins of tsiftetelli or how the slower chiftitelli music/rhythm found it's way to raqs sharki and has now become a common section of our modern performance set?

From the statement above - would it be too much of an assumption, that the Greeks living in Egypt influenced dancers and musicians of the Golden era or perhaps even earlier than that?

the Chicken or the egg, which came first, and who influenced whom in re: to chiftitelli as we know it?

Okay, let's see what I can do here...

First, ethnic Greeks used to live in large numbers in Asia Minor, what we know today as Turkey. Y'know the Biblical book in the New Testament, which was Paul's letter to the Ephesians? Well, the Ephesians were ethnic Greeks who lived in Ephesus, which was geographically located in Asia Minor - the place we know today as Turkey. Even after the coming of the Turkish conquerors in 1453, many ethnic Greeks continued to live in Asia Minor throughout the centuries.

The Ottoman empire continued its conquests, conquering Egypt in 1517. Cultural exchange occurred along the trade routes from Turkey through the Levant south to Egypt. An indigenous hip-oriented social dance, the precursor to what we know today as belly dance, existed throughout this region. It had regional variants - for example, the undulations of the full body led by the rib cage are common in Turkish dance, less commonly seen in Egyptian.

The Greeks in Asia Minor came to do this social dance, but always saw it as having Turkish origins. Greeks in Greece didn't do it, for the most part, unless they'd had sufficient contact with Asia Minor to assimilate it.

The musical rhythm that *we* call chiftetelli has two versions. There's the slow 8/4 one, and there's also a frisky fast variant. Fast chiftetelli is common in Turkish and Greek music.

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

From the statement above - would it be too much of an assumption, that the Greeks living in Egypt influenced dancers and musicians of the Golden era or perhaps even earlier than that?

I would say that both the Greeks in Egypt and the Egyptians (including dancers and musicians of the Golden Era) were influenced by the Turks. An Ottoman ruler sat on the throne of Egypt until 1952 - even after the collapse of the Ottoman empire in Turkey.

One big role of Greek influence on the Golden Era: the movie industry. Before the 1952 revolution, over 80% of movie theaters in Egypt were owned by Greeks, and Greeks played a leading role in the rise of the movie industry as a whole. So, the Golden Era movies we admire today were probably largely financed by Greek investors, and shown in Greek-owned theaters. After the 1952 revolution, around the early 1960's, Nasser decided to seize all the theaters and production companies and claim ownership by the Egyptian government. That happened to correspond with the decline of how our dance form was portrayed in the movies, but that's a big topic in itself.

Thank you for all this info! As someone who just started dancing in a Greek restaurant, this is very timely info!

Lauren, chifti is commonly used in classical Egyptian pieces. I hear it a lot in baladi style songs, but it's more used as a melodic element than a rhythm.

It's often used to transition from something to a taxim-like portion of a song. Sometimes, it may accompany the whole taxim portion.

I heard one song last night on my ipod. I'll have to find it, so I can give you an example.

Clearly, the Greeks/Turks must have influenced Egyptian music at some point in time. Or it came from somewhere else and the Greeks/Turks ran with it and made it theirs.

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Lauren, chifti is commonly used in classical Egyptian pieces. I hear it a lot in baladi style songs, but it's more used as a melodic element than a rhythm.

It's often used to transition from something to a taxim-like portion of a song. Sometimes, it may accompany the whole taxim portion.

I heard one song last night on my ipod. I'll have to find it, so I can give you an example.

Clearly, the Greeks/Turks must have influenced Egyptian music at some point in time. Or it came from somewhere else and the Greeks/Turks ran with it and made it theirs.

Oh, yes please, tell me the song/songs, maybe I have examples in my own library and haven't caught on to it! (no point posting it to Bhuz, I can't play media here).

I've always been taught that Egyptian music used Wahida instead of Chifti, but I learn something new on Bhuz every day (and often something that conflicts with my previous learning, isn't that how it is!!)

Given the several hundred years that Egypt was under Ottoman rule, there's bound to be a lot of Turkish influence. My guess is that would be more likely than a Greek influence, although Greek culture would have been similarly influenced by the Turks. (and I would imagine the Turkish culture would have been influenced by the Egyptians and Greeks as well.)

I used to work in Greek nightclubs in Detroit Greektown. Alas the last club closed in 1997. When we used the term Greek belly dancing we referred to the type of dancing done in a Greek nightclub. It was basically regular old belly dancing with strong American Caberet and Turkish influences. The music could be Greek, Lebanese, Armenian, etc. The instruments consisted of keyboard, bass guitar, bouzoukee, trap drums, clarinet. Sometimes you might have a derbke player or a violin.

The Greek clubs were very touristy and attracted customers from several nationalities so the entertainment was designed to please everybody but still maintain a "Greek" flavor.

It's a shame more placesl like this don't exist anymore.
Floor work, cymbals and veils were a must. So were full flowing skirts and showing a lot of leg.

The Greeks in America referred to it as Tsftitelli. Same name but not the same style of dancing or music when you use the term Tsftitelli in Greece other than the rythm "chiftitelli".

Some exampes of American Greek style:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhhYkkCA0Ko]YouTube - USS Saratoga CV-60 1984-87 Cruise-Athens Greece Port Call 02[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywqSRPv4MCg]YouTube - Aida best belly dancer ever[/ame]

Let me show you two youtube clips for examples:

The first is tsiftetelli "music" Greek style: You can hear the melodic Dum-da-da--da-da-Dum-da-da or rhymically: DttttDtt

http://www.metacafe.com/fplayer/yt-C...s_zohs_soy.swf

Here is another clip of our own Meissoun to the classic "Leyla" by Farid Al Atrash. Go to about 2:30 in the clip. Some versions of leyla are cleary chifti, some aren't. In this clip, the rhythm is also played, but in some arrangements it may be played with another rhythm or with no rhythm at all:

http://www.youtube.com/v/JNkseS5Nrlg&hl=en&fs=1

You can also hear a clip of the Egyptian song "Ya Bent el Soultan" on Dahlal site for the Bellydance Plus album. Luckily, the clip is in the right spot for this example:

https://www.dahlal.com/default.aspx?...sn=MCE-HMC1386

Referring to Shira's site, in Arabic chifti is called "wahad e noss" ( 1 and 1/2), where wahid just means just 1. But it is the same, just different names.

Chiftitelli rhythm is definitely played in Arabic music. Often you'll hear it played underneath a taqsim.

Hi all :)
Happy New Year !!!
Sorry didnt saw this earlier, was kind of busy.

A quick answer

Chifteteli IS the greek version of Bellydance with a history more of 100 years.
Yes it started from Minnor Asia, and there are more than 10 different forms of it.
There are specific movements and styles.
It never (in Greece) reached the level of a "performance" dance.
It remained a social dance, kind of like what baladi is in arab world for families.
As a "Bellydance form" more was evolved out side of Greece from greek imigrants in USA and other parts of the world taking the form of Old Style AmCab, danced with AmCab style on greek music.
This style is total different from the original greek style.

And yes I teach greek chifteteli, just because in Greece all people know it, its not asked from greeks. But when dancers from abroad come in Athens, they ask me for chifteteli lessons.

ITS NOT A FOLK DANCE!!!!!!!!!!

Last May we did a show dedicated to the greek chifteteli's from Minnor Asia, and Konstantinoupoli (Instambul).
some videos, before each video we explain the style:)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCQMSu3ooIU&feature=channel_page]YouTube - Oriental Expression, Tsifteteli Roza & Labrini[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw6AhyEiR8Q&feature=channel]YouTube - Oriental Expression - Greek Chifteteli Show[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHyl7R6wzgs&feature=channel]YouTube - Oriental Expression, Chifteteli Show 2[/ame]

Happy new year alllllllllll !!!

Originally Posted by MariaAya

And yes I teach greek chifteteli, just because in Greece all people know it, its not asked from greeks. But when dancers from abroad come in Athens, they ask me for chifteteli lessons.

I was lucky enough to take a tsiftetelli lesson with Maria Aya during my visit to Greece. If you happen to be in Athens I highly recommend taking a class with Maria Aya: she thoroughly explained everything, answered all of my questions, gifted me the DVD of the show mentioned above and a CD with tsiftetelli music, which I've heard since then maybe a thousand times, it's so go-o-od! Even my husband can sing along now!!! I received such a warm welcome from her and her partner Ana, I'm definitely coming back! Oh, and did I mention that she's an amazing dancer, with most graceful arms and soft and flowing dance style?

Φιλάκια Mariya Aya!

That's an Amazing clip of Aida! Her cymbals are incredible!!!! My husband ran in from the other room about halfway through yelling "I used to play that song at the club!" lol ... (he's a drummer)

This is a great thread - thanks everyone! And timely too ... I'm dancing at a farewell party for a Greek friend this weekend. :)

Originally Posted by latriamou

it is both. tsifteteli is the word greeks use for bellydancing.

chifteteli is the folk dance. or at least that's what all my folk dance instructors told me. and it is done with partners. we performed it as a kind of handkerchief dance where the women were "teasing" the men, hiding their eyes. and then at some point in the dance, the men would claim the handkerchief as if they had won the women or at least given their intentions.

DOH! i am so sorry. i totally did not mean to write chifteteli.. karsilama! ack! what was i thinking that day.we did karsilama with the handkerchiefs.
the only time we did any move in folk dance class that my teacher called tsifteteli was if we were doing a syrto with partners and we broke off.

sorry ladies, it's been a while since i've had to think about the distinctions.

Ok, let me think out load here...

From what I am gathering from this thread is that there ISN'T a clear style of greek belly dance per se outside of Greece. I.E. Americans here doing Egyptian/Turkish oriental in a Greek Restaurant to Greek music.

However, there is a social dance that is from Greece that does use Oriental movements called tsiftetelli.

But what we know in America as Greek Belly Dance is not the same as tsiftetelli. Tsiftetelli is a dance form unto itself, where Greek style in the US really isn't stylistically clear.

Would these be accurate statements?

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Referring to Shira's site, in Arabic chifti is called "wahad e noss" ( 1 and 1/2), where wahid just means just 1. But it is the same, just different names.

Doesn't Keti Sharif's 5-video set refer to it as Wahida el Kabira (The Big One?) -- and I think I remember her saying it was to a 4/4 rather than 8/4 time signature. My memory is that she indicated it was based on Chifti, but not quite the same. I'm at work so I can't check that -- does anyone else remember it that way?

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Ok, let me think out load here...

From what I am gathering from this thread is that there ISN'T a clear style of greek belly dance per se outside of Greece. I.E. Americans here doing Egyptian/Turkish oriental in a Greek Restaurant to Greek music.

However, there is a social dance that is from Greece that does use Oriental movements called tsiftetelli.

But what we know in America as Greek Belly Dance is not the same as tsiftetelli. Tsiftetelli is a dance form unto itself, where Greek style in the US really isn't stylistically clear.

Would these be accurate statements?

Yes.