Thread: Question for tribal dancers - your take on ATS/ITS?

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

My point if there were more responses is to say that the fundamental movements are the same in ATS and ITS. The only difference is stylization and execution.

That the dance is the same dance. The steps you described are still the same steps. I found it humorous that some tribes just change the name. It is the similar problem with have with belly dance. People making up new names for the same fundamental movements.

Actually, I think you will find that quite a few things are different. The muscular impetus, the overall execution, the presentation--the way movement is approached and treated can be very very different across styles. Not all ITS is ATS based...

(pasting this from another thread so as not to sidetrack that one)

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

I view it like this. You cannot lay claim on style. She may have developed it and FCBD has their particular methodology for their particular style of ATS. She would be better suited claiming their methodology. In other words, no one can claim ballet or jazz as their own because it is universal dance style, with many variations.

ATS is a dance style. I think if she were to take this to court she would loose, but ITS which someone developed that name I suspect it was Carolena is an attempt to not say ATS. ATS/ITS are similar in concept, has the same esthetics in dress, can have different execustions in methodology. but if you were to put them side by side and asked a crowd of people to distinguish the two groups they would most likely not be able to seperate the two groups.

Same can be said of Hip hop or any other dance forms. Carolena can lay claim to being the creator of ATS but now that it has become a form of dance style she cannot lay sole ownership of its style. I do not believe it would hold up in a court of law. It has become a universal dance form.

Now if the egyptians want to lay claim on Eygyptian dance they could then contest that Carolena can not use Egygptian dance moves, The Turks can say you cannot use turkish moves and on and on and on. So really if she thinks she can lay claim on ATS then others could do the same. Then it become a legal mess if anyone of them were to win then it would totally invalidate her style. So in essence it is ridiculous for her to lay such a claim and state no one can teach it, but her...

Can the same be said of Suhaila? People had been using the Salimpour technique, movement vocabulary and naming conventions for about 20-30 years before she decided to take ownership of it and license people to teach it. In 1990, I could have taken some Salimpour workshops, studied with some videos, and set myself up as a teacher of the Salimpour technique. In fact, many people did just that -- which is what prompted her to take control of it.

Isn't Carolena doing exactly what Suhaila did -- taking control (years after the fact) of who uses her naming conventions, techniques, etc. and claims to be teaching her style? She's not claiming ownership of all tribal dancing -- just the variety she invented.

I'm not sure how easy it'll be for her to reclaim it (it would be easier if she were claiming a more specific name) but I don't dispute her right to do so.

Originally Posted by Zamira

Just curious - was their any tribal fusion style dancing like the kind we see today before Rachel Brice?

Sorry, I'm really late to this party...

But my understanding is that Rachel herself has said that she didn't invent this style and wasn't a pioneer in the TF movement.

She was just the first dancer of this style to become really famous, primarily via Bellydance Superstars.

Not to take anything away from Rachel, she has gorgeous technique and I love to watch her dance. But I was under the impression that she's a little embarrassed at being credited with inventing or pioneering the Tribal Fusion style.

Actually Suhaila does not lay claim to a style. She has developed her method of training. I think there is a difference. Suhaila's is not so egotistical as Carolena to say that no one can not use her methodology. There are many dancers that teach her methodology but are not authorized instructors of her dance school.

In my last level two she recognizes that she has students using and teaching her methodology. All she asks from us is that we respect that by stating we are not authorized instructors of her dance school. She simply asked us who attended the week-long to keep up to date with the changes she makes. So many of us purchased the new level one manual so our students can be taught and given the updated information. We encourage our students to purchase their own manual.

In my area I know of several certified dancers teaching her format, but I am the only one with enough respect to state in my instructor bio that I am not an authorized instructor of the school.

All though I use her methodology I have incorporated my own personal ideas that I would like my students to learn. So I do not just teach glute based format. I also teach Egyptian shimmies but do not teach Egyptian dance style. I teach veil and that is not in her format classes. So we add our own personalization.

I don't see the harm in creating a new term, but I think as long as they were doing it, maybe the wrong letter was replaced...as the term "tribal'" has frequently been an source of confusion, esp to people who are outside the world of bellydance. But it's really hard to come up with good descriptive terms for any danceform though.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

The point, Angela, is that Carolena has branded very successfully. She trains people, and there is a particular structure to the way she trains. To have her certification you must adhere to certain requirements. To learn how to do ATS *somebody somewhere along the line* has to have learned from Carolena or from Carolena's training materials. As well as this, there is extensive branding within the look. A *specific* skirt, specific pants, specific choli, which you *can* purchase the patterns for elsewhere or get via Carolena. The choli is referred to as the FCBD choli. You can get FCBD zills. It might be different in America but internationally - and very widely on the internet, I might add, based on what I've seen - ATS is seen as essentially synonymous with Carolena and FCBD style, although offshoots can and do occur a lot. Other variants tend to be portrayed as offshoots, not alternatives that "evolved" alongside it.

To me, that's an example of extremely good branding.

Branding FCBD is different from trying to lay claim on a style of dance. Domba, Gypsy Caravan are considered ATS, and many troupes have developed from that. She can brand FCBD looks and methodology, but to say that is the only valid form of ATS? Not!!!!

Is it true that you are certified in her dance style?

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Branding FCBD is different from trying to lay claim on a style of dance. Domba, Gypsy Caravan are considered ATS, and many troupes have developed from that. She can brand FCBD looks and methodology, but to say that is the only valid form of ATS? Not!!!!

Actually, neither Domba nor Gypsy Caravan use the term ATS. From what I can tell the only old school ATS/ATS derived troupe that is still using ATS to describe itself even though it is not using FCBD's style is Kajira and BSBD, despite Carolena's desire to have the term ATS describe only what is coming from FCBD.

I think it boils down to respect. And peer pressure. Carolena wishes that only troupes/dancers doing her style of dance (the steps, the cues, the formations, the solo styles, the music choices, the costuming) use the term ATS. Out of respect most troupes who were not doing FCBD ATS either changed the name of what they were doing or decided to align themselves with ATS. No one is making dancers or troupes not use ATS, but dancers that use the term ATS when not doing the FCBD style can find themselves under pressure from the ATS/ITS community to name themselves "correctly". I know people talk all the time about leaving teachers because they thought they would be learning ATS but instead are learning that teacher's own style of tribal group improv. Some dancers don't care and keep on doing their thing.

Carolena's pretty up front about the fact that she/FCBD came up with the format and steps and she wants to keep that pure as ATS so people know exactly what it is, and if you want to vary it just call it something else. She's looking after her creative output. She's also up front about the fact that she is a business woman who is supporting herself through her art and that she has to be on top of both controlling what it put out there and marketing that output.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Actually Suhaila does not lay claim to a style. She has developed her method of training. I think there is a difference. Suhaila's is not so egotistical as Carolena to say that no one can not use her methodology. There are many dancers that teach her methodology but are not authorized instructors of her dance school.

I think there is a bit of a misinterpretation of what one can and can not do. I can purchase the Fat Chance DVDs, study what's on there, and go out and say "I teach ATS". If I work hard and do that well, you can be certain that Carolena Nericcio is the first person to appreciate that.

Originally Posted by kazoogrrl

Actually, neither Domba nor Gypsy Caravan use the term ATS. From what I can tell the only old school ATS/ATS derived troupe that is still using ATS to describe itself even though it is not using FCBD's style is Kajira and BSBD, despite Carolena's desire to have the term ATS describe only what is coming from FCBD.

As a student of Gypsy Caravan for two and half years, They introduced the style as American Tribal Style in the first begining class. I listened to the introduction every six weeks at the begining of a new session. I attended four begining level one classes four times a week for two years. I know what I heard. I was there from 2004-2006 1/2.... So I'm speaking from personal experience.... In that time I went from B1-I2.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

As a student of Gypsy Caravan for two and half years, They introduced the style as American Tribal Style in the first begining class. I listened to the introduction every six weeks at the begining of a new session. I attended four begining level one classes four times a week for two years. I know what I heard. I was there from 2004-2006 1/2.... So I'm speaking from personal experience.... In that time I went from B1-I2.

Could that have been prior to the FCBD reclamation of the term ATS? The last time I saw anything about them written it referred to their style as Gypsy Caravan Tribal Style. I also remember their style used to be referred to as ATS, but I thought they transitioned away from it now. Does anyone here currently study with them?

From what I can see on the website GC is not using ATS anymore and Paulette is now offering certification workshops in GC style tribal bellysance and teacher training. I think 2006/207 was about when the ATS naming discussion really came to a head, though I'm a little fuzzy about that. You'll probably find lots of teachers and troupes who changed their style name at that point, I know that's what happened with my troupe. As students we were taught with the broader use of the term ATS (pretty close to what you find in the Tribal Bible), but once Carolena made her wishes known we dropped ATS (except to say that we come from the ATS tradition because we base everything out of the FCBD vocabulary).

I could not say what Paulette is teaching now or what she is calling it. But in the early days it was taught ATS. Paulette only making small variations of her own from the FCBD style she learned and was involved in since she was one of the Original members of FCBD.

She may not be using the term now and has gone totally into her own style of tribal. I know that she has her own certification course with the collective soul? I'm just simply stating during my time with Gypsy we were taught we were learning ATS.

I do not have any interests in teaching ATS. My sights are set on other goals and troupe concepts, but if i were to choose to teach ATS I would call it that from what I have learned in my two and half years then build upon that. The principles of the dance style stays the same.

Like I stated, you can franchise and brand the FCBD Style of ATS but ATS now belongs to a larger community and its very name denotes a style, with the same costuming aesthetics and concept of execution of improv movements. It is it own dance form IMO. Once the cat is out of the bag its hard to put it back in.

I would hope Carolena would be happy and satisfied with giving life to a new dance form but i believe it is unrealistic to control a style other than that style particular to FCBD.

Shall we start another can of worms with Egyptian folkloric dance? Shall we say Reda has a claim on Egyptian folkloric styling and no one else is allowed to teach it?

I have expressed my opinion. That is all it is. I will not say anymore on this subject.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Sorry, I'm really late to this party...

But my understanding is that Rachel herself has said that she didn't invent this style and wasn't a pioneer in the TF movement.

She was just the first dancer of this style to become really famous, primarily via Bellydance Superstars.

Not to take anything away from Rachel, she has gorgeous technique and I love to watch her dance. But I was under the impression that she's a little embarrassed at being credited with inventing or pioneering the Tribal Fusion style.

I believe a lot of people see Ultra Gypsy as being hugely influential in tribal fusion before Rachel Brice went solo (she had danced with them). I am not a huge follower of UG, though I like them a lot, but some people claim Jill Parker was doing similar stuff that Rachel Brice is famous for before Rachel Brice became famous.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

As a student of Gypsy Caravan for two and half years, They introduced the style as American Tribal Style in the first begining class. I listened to the introduction every six weeks at the begining of a new session. I attended four begining level one classes four times a week for two years. I know what I heard. I was there from 2004-2006 1/2.... So I'm speaking from personal experience.... In that time I went from B1-I2.

I am sure they gave background on ATS, but Paulette has not considered themselves ATS in the last 9 years I have studied with her. I actually did an interview with her in which one of the questions was about the term ATS, in which she made it very clear she felt ATS was what Carolena did, and she considered herself simply a version of "tribal style"--her own version of course. This interview was in 1999.

I have trained with Paulette since 1999, albeit remotely for most of it (workshops, private lessons and training, etc). I was her first teacher trainee, and am certified in the format through Intermediate. I can assure you they do not consider themselves ATS, and have not in the years you have studied there. Maybe they said they were *based* on ATS? Maybe whoever was teaching the class was unclear or misinformed, though I doubt the latter.

I would also not agree that in the time you have been studying, that the style only has "small variations" from ATS. The format, philosophy, and aesthetic are distinct, even if the method is the same (group improv). If you started in 2004, you would have been well within the timeframe of the "stylings" movement in GC (Indian, Spanish, African), which is one incredibly significant difference from ATS, and is among many other significant differences. No offense, but perhaps you don't have a clear idea of what constitutes ATS, and that is why you feel confident asserting what you have. So we will just have to chalk it up to ignorance for now unless you can better clarify and support what you are claiming.

Hi Sharon nice to see you pop in after I stated I'm done. I'm done with this subject.

FYI I don't recall you in any my beginner classes so how would you know what was said to us by her instructors.

Have a good night.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Sorry, I'm really late to this party...

But my understanding is that Rachel herself has said that she didn't invent this style and wasn't a pioneer in the TF movement.

She was just the first dancer of this style to become really famous, primarily via Bellydance Superstars.

Not to take anything away from Rachel, she has gorgeous technique and I love to watch her dance. But I was under the impression that she's a little embarrassed at being credited with inventing or pioneering the Tribal Fusion style.

Slightly offtopic, but since it came up. (I seem to be one of those weirdos that can figure out a lot of the Bay Area Dancer lineage -- I usually do it with a lot of "begats"). Rachel was already a lovely dancer when she joined Ultra Gypsy, I believe she took a couple of classes with Carolena Nericcio and she started with cabaret training; but she definitely picked up a lot of styling from UG's look and tribal fusion dance style. Here's a UG video from 2001, Rachel is in the second row at the beginning of the number. (I'm next to her with red hair that is up). This is a choreographed number, but when we did improv sets, many of the moves were the same. I must add, the number looks offbeat at times because the editor obviously did not cut against the live rhythm track *sigh* The number was choreographed onbeat.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydMv17AsMJo]YouTube - Ultra Gypsy[/ame]

As far as I understand the lineage, both Rachel and Jill Parker studied with Fat Chance/Carolina (and wasn't Rachel's cabaret influence from studying with Suhaila around this time?), and then Jill branched off to create her own style of ATS. Rachel then joined Jill's troupe in what was to become Ultra Gypsy, and Ultra Gypsy was one of the first and primary groups to begin the Tribal Fusion movement as we know it today (a little goth, a little earthy, slightly dramatic and slinky, and utilizing Mid- as well as Far-Eastern textiles in the costumes). Then Rachel branched off into her own style and made tribal fusion famous, but she certainly didn't invent it, though she did create her own look and feel.
We need a family tree!

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Hi Sharon nice to see you pop in after I stated I'm done. I'm done with this subject.

FYI I don't recall you in any my beginner classes so how would you know what was said to us by her instructors.

Have a good night.

I was out of town, taking my ATS Teacher Training Level 2 in San Francisco, so I wasn't here to discuss this before you were "done".

I never claimed to know what your teachers said. I offered some examples of what might have been said or misunderstood. But I can tell you from the mouth of the creator and director and teacher of the dance form you are talking about, that they do not consider themselves ATS, no matter what your teacher said to you in your classes.

You were somehow misinformed (either by them or by mishearing), and I don't want you to accidentally pass on incorrect information here in this forum. You meant well, of course, and I am not trying to make you look bad, though your tone implies that you feel I am somehow attacking you personally--I am not. You were told what you were told, fine. But I am trying to clear up any misconception that might grow from your vehement assertions of incorrect information on what is and is not ATS.

My understanding was that Rachel never took regular classes with Carolena, and most of her classes there have been after she had become more famous, because she wanted to better understand the roots of what people were claiming she did (calling her tribal fusion when she didn't have a full understanding of ATS to be fusing it). I remember her saying that in some interviews and online discussions several years back. So I wouldn't say ATS was her roots, but her time with Nana Candelaria and Jill Parker, plus a decade and a half of yoga practice, were her primary influences from the early years.

Hmm....you may be right Sharon.
Interesting interview with Rachel I found, but doesn't describe any specific timelines (does go into some of Rachel's opinions on tribal fusion):
Interview with Tribal fantasy Belly dancer Rachel Brice

It is funny, but understandable to me how Rachel never mentions Ultra Gypsy (as in that article). What she told me in 2001 is that she saw Habbi Ru and other dancers at the N Cal Ren Faire (some of which were Aywah! - another troupe I was a long time member of) and wanted to learn to belly dance. She took "cabaret" classes. Later, she saw us (Ultra Gypsy) dance somewhere and she really wanted to be part of the group, she loved the style. She stayed a while, then left to start her own group The Indigo with herself, Janice Solimeno, Ariellah, Michelle, and Sharon Kihara and to do more solo stuff. Ahhh, the mythology...

Ummm, I can do the whole family tree thing with "begats" and "in the beginning" if you want Summer, but it usually makes people's eyes glaze over ,r:;

Added: Oh! And Aywah! was the spawning ground for Zoe Jakes, Elizabeth Strong, and Mira Betz... among others.

Was Aywah Katarina Burda's troupe?

Originally Posted by SummerSahar

Was Aywah Katarina Burda's troupe?

Yes, in Marin.

Originally Posted by jetgirl

It is funny, but understandable to me how Rachel never mentions Ultra Gypsy (as in that article). <snip> Later, she saw us (Ultra Gypsy) dance somewhere and she really wanted to be part of the group, she loved the style. She stayed a while, then left to start her own group The Indigo <snip>

If she wasn't with the group long, it's not surprising that she doesn't mention it. I leave anything I did for less than a year or two off my resume...g.:

How long did she study with anyone, though? Most of her studies I've heard about were yoga, Odissi, Kathak, Fat Chance, and Suhaila.

I have seen this conversation recycle itself many times on so many different forums and communities. It turns to the same discussion each time. It's over already. The horse is dead people. Stop beating it.

You need not participate, Hava, if it frustrates you. But some people are always new to these discussions and learn a lot from them, and sometimes new information really does come to light and we all learn something.

Indeed. I don't visit a lot of other forums. This is the first time I've ever had this conversation. I don't mind a bit if people who are tired of the conversation want to skip this thread, but I'd like to be allowed to explore the topic.

Originally Posted by Hava77

I have seen this conversation recycle itself many times on so many different forums and communities. It turns to the same discussion each time. It's over already. The horse is dead people. Stop beating it.

What, conversation on the family tree/umbrella of Tribal Style and Incarnations?

Happens just as much as what is and is not bellydance. Actually, I think the bellydance horse will never die...

But TribalDancer and Lauren are right. if you think this is a dead horse, why come in just to post that?

I read many other forums (I have a boring desk job, what can I say) and I've actually learned things on this thread I did not know before.
There's a difference between beating a dead horse and revisiting a topic with a new perspective and new information to share.

I do agree that I am somewhat "over" the argument about whether or not Carolena has the "right" to reclaim the ATS term, but mostly because there is no way to resolve that argument. It's totally subjective and people are always going to disagree. In order to figure out who's "right" you'd have to get into some really fundamental ethical questions about artistic license and intellectual property that have no absolute answers.

I am much more interested in talking about things with a concrete basis such as history and the differences in movement vocabulary between styles- but that's the majority of what is going on here.