Thread: Tribal-style culture - evolution?

Originally Posted by TribalDancer

Every time someone says "I dance tribal because ______" doesn't automatically mean they are saying cabaret ISN'T those things. Just that in their experience, with their personal style of tribal, it fulfills what they are seeking...

I was referring to people who said "I dance tribal because it's not _____", rather than people who said "I dance tribal because ______". See the difference? One is stating that they preferred tribal over other options because of what tribal doesn't have and (presumably) cabaret does, the other is a positive statement of what they like about tribal.

Let's get real, most of the ladies are not talking about tap or hula when they say they like tribal because it isn't _____. They're talking about American/Egyptian/Turkish bellydance.

I must say I was wrong about the choli. In general, dancing without a bra would definitely make ATS less sexy. *shudders at the thought*

I usually keep out of these things but 2 thought popped up

First, calling 'Tribal Fusion' 'World Dance fusion' or similar. Now I know there are some dancers/troupes that really are still using world dance and coming from that mind set, a lot of the kewl young 'TribalFusion' dancers from the Rachel Brice style lineage really aren't doing any 'world' dance moves other than the few bellydance moves they still do (few and far between). Yes I know popping and locking etc still come from the 'world' if you want to be pedantic, but you know what I mean, they ain't using any 'ethnic' dance moves.

As an egyptian oriental dancer (which I guess would make me 'cabaret' in the USA) I think the term 'Dark Cabaret' fits better (especially regarding the direction the Indigo etc have been taking, more vaudaville etc,) if only the world 'cabaret' hadn't already been branded on the beads and sequins styles. I know we are never going to be able to shed that though.

Z

I agree that the term "cabaret" is very appropriate for the vaudeville, burlyfusion etcetc stuff that some fusion dancers are into now. The only thing that bothers me about it at all is, I guess, down to looking at the tribal/oriental thing very broadly. First of all, people flocked to tribal because it *wasn't* cabaret. Then, as they got, dare I say, bored with plain group improv and wanted to explore more, including, dare I say, expressing more sexual and/or edgy personae, they started to do things that weren't tribal any more. And then they started to *call* what they did "cabaret". I kind of feel like, first of all they take belly dance off us. Then they take the very term they used to abuse us, off us. And I know this view of mine is ludicrous, knee-jerk stuff that is not taking into account the very wide varieties of people who do tribal, tribal fusion, tribal-derived dance performance etc etc. Not to mention that when I say "us" I'm aware that ME people actually had it first, not "us".

But at worst I feel like *some* people want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be tribal and rebellious, but they also want pretty, shiny costumes and sensuality and being a solo belly dancer and to be "cabaret". They just don't want to have to think about that icky Middle Eastern stuff or understanding conventions before they prance about thinking they're breaking them or whatever.

That's *at worst*. Not everyone is like that, obviously.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I always got the impression that SF, being in California, would be, you know, hot anyway.

I'm staying out of the major debate here because this dead horse is so old and decomposed that I don't want to get near it.

BUT this California girl would like to defend her state and say that San Francisco is FAR from hot. 50s-60s Fahrenheit most of the time. :)

And it snows in California too. It's a big state.

I saw this video on Facebook today and found it to be rather . . . timely, considering this conversation.

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You'll have to log on if you have a membership, or sign up if you don't, to see it.

Found it on Youtube:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8LfGr-E-b8"]YouTube - What is Tribal Style Bellydance[/ame]

Thanks for posting that! Very good. I wish this were more public so people would get a better idea of what tribal is and what it isn't, and who is claiming to be it and who isn't. So it would stop being attributed to really really NOT tribal stuff...

Thanks for posting the video kazoogrrl!

Good stuff.

Thanks for posting, Amy! I really enjoyed that.

One more "thanks for posting," kazoogirl!

A common theme that seemed to run through the interviews, especially among the "younger crowd" in the second half of the docu was the feeling of doing something new and different. Amy Sigil was very clear that "pop" would describe what she does, ie, she grabs what's
pop(ular) (and therefore "hot") and uses it. Many of the other interviewees said something similar: whatever grabs her attention at the moment will be what gets added or fused next. Amy also mentioned the idea of not having a "format," about which I immediately thought, "What's a format?" and she then asked, "You know what I mean?" and I thought, "No. Explain yourself."

Several of the interviewees also stated, in one way or another, that they are "world dancers" or that they dance the dances of the world. I understand the concept of fusing "world dances" together to make new dance, but I don't think a person who uses a few ideas from flamenco dance, various styles of Indian dance, and a few hip drops or shimmies can necessary call themselves a dancer of dances of the world. We all know, for example, that a few hip drops does not a BDer make, nor do hand florios or extreme posture a flamenco dancer make, nor do a few head slides and poses a classical Indian dancer make.

As evidenced by the documentary, I think the Isadora Duncan quote (paraphrased here) of "if I could explain it to you I wouldn't have to dance it," really sums up the the current "tribal style" situation. Of course, that same idea is found in the idea of "I know it when I see it" that is applicable to any art!

Deborah

When Amy is referring to a Format, she means like ATS or Suhaila technique, which has standard movements, levels, etc. An organized structure and vocabulary.

Originally Posted by TribalDancer

When Amy is referring to a Format, she means like ATS or Suhaila technique, which has standard movements, levels, etc. An organized structure and vocabulary.

Gotcha!

Assuming I remember correctly, Amy had also been bringing "traditional" BD into the discussion at about that same time, so I wasn't sure to what she was referring.

Thanks for the clarification, TribalDancer!

Deborah

Originally Posted by da Sage

They're still saying that...some of the quotes from fans in this Indigo tribe.net thread are priceless. Sooo many people (not all, but a lot) are still defining tribal by Not Sexual, Not Shiny, Not Out To Attract Men...do they think all traditional bellydance classes and workshops focus on sex appeal and male psychology instead of technique, presentation, and history?

Ok, I find what you're saying interesting, Da Sage, because all the men I've talked to (including my hubby!) in the 20 and 30-something age bracket find Tribal styling and costume EVER SO SEXY and far more appealing than Cabaret (my chosen form). Mst be the dark, bad-girl appeal. Or maybe it's just Rachel brice. My hubb's in love with her!

Very interesting doc, too. Thanks for posting.

Originally Posted by Elianae

Ok, I find what you're saying interesting, Da Sage, because all the men I've talked to (including my hubby!) in the 20 and 30-something age bracket find Tribal styling and costume EVER SO SEXY and far more appealing than Cabaret (my chosen form). Mst be the dark, bad-girl appeal. Or maybe it's just Rachel brice. My hubb's in love with her!

I think that is probably a personal taste thing - my hubby far prefers the cabaret to the tribal (both the costuming and the dancing) ... personally I see just as much 'sex appeal' in both depending on the particular performance. ... not all cabaret performances strike me that way - and not all tribal performances do ... but I really wouldn't say one style does more often than the other.

I wish people would stop talking about Rachel Brice as if everything she ever wears or does is the exemplar of tribal. Yes she has a tribal base and yes there is tribal influence in her style, but a LOT of tribal dancers don't wear cancan skirts and boots. Really.

I think that's just a misunderstanding due to BDSS and youtube ... she's the first thing a lot of young dancers discover that's labelled as 'tribal' - and she's ever so cool ;-) ... many people just never go much farther in their research ... hell, in the few interviews I've heard with her, she's been pretty quick to identify many influences (including cabaret, gasp) - not just tribal and point out that she is NOT strictly tribal, but does her own thing.

(ETA: I wasn't referring specifically to rachel brice style tribal in my previous post in case it appeared that way, rather all tribal styles I've had the pleasure of watching performed well)

I agree with a lot of what people have been saying on this thread. While I used to call my style "tribal fusion," with more and more influence from Egyptian orientale and Turkish orientale/Rom styles, I currently just call myself a "fusion" dancer.

I think to say "tribal fusion" you have to incorporate a strong element of ATS in your performance...be that an ITS performance with a group, or even specific ATS moves, posturing, costuming, zilling, etc.

Even Caroleena does solos at this point, yes? Perhaps in front of a group, but a solo nonetheless...

Asharah wrote down some excellent ideas on this topic on her blog:
Bellydance Paladin: The Trouble with Tribal (Fusion)

Bellydance Paladin: The Trouble with Tribal (Fusion) - Part 2

There have ALWAYS been the option for solos within the tribal format. BUT it still retains the vocabulary and aesthetics of ATS, and 99.9999% of the time it is done in the context of a chorus (the rest of the group is on stage with you, backing you up somehow). The stricter rules of how the moves are strung together can be loosened because you don't have anyone trying to follow you, but generally the moves and transitions should bear resemblance to the group work. SO it is not a solo as many people might imagine a solo...

The video posted was great to watch, and informative. I normally don't get into a discussion like this because it gets into too many semantics. However, I'll weigh in on this one. Tribal has evolved so much since I started doing it years ago. I have seen people define the evolution of tribal as many different terms; "dark cabaret", "urban fusion" , "world fusion" , "modern fusion", and the list goes on.

To people who don't know too much about belly dancing I will always tell them "tribal fusion" because that's what they understand, and it's an umbrella term that's better used for them. For people who know more about belly dancing, I say a fusion because it is a fusion of belly dancing, ballet, and urban dance that I do.

I always thought that tribal meant like ... taking on a tribal-like appearance. Tribal-y as in gypsy-like. If that makes any sense at all. Only recently have I realized that it was meant to be danced in a "tribe".

taking on a tribal-like appearance. Tribal-y as in gypsy-like.

Quick, get down!

*knocks Unilaye to the floor out of the way of bullets of outrage*

'K, so. I think the idea of being part of a tribe is and has always been key but one of of the points of confusion could be the way that 80s tribal seems to have developed in parallel with the "urban primitive" movement in subcultural fashion that was around at that time, in a lot of places. Ah, well I remember tying multiple ragged pieces of fabric round my ankles and not being able to get my trousers off. These days it seems to be synonymous only with body modification, but back then it was a bit more, hmm, Mad Max I suppose. So there was a kind of fantasy about being part of "tribes" that went with it. In my experience it was just a way of expressing yourself with a particular look. Excuse to have cool and transgressive hair. You can see it in that YA show "The Tribe" too.

Gypsy is One Of Those Words that many people outside the tribal belly dance field (and probably in it too) are cautious about using. Because the term gypsy is still used to refer to certain ethnic groups who do not skip round with tambourines being wild and transgressive, and who are in fact severely discriminated against, and so a lot of us are cautious about the term these days.

But there is an established fantasy in western/global BD culture about BD being transmitted by "the gypsies" and the idea of a gypsy as a sort of free-spirited travelling magpie is very appealing. So some people, most notably some tribal groups, have used the term "gypsy" in their troupe names or dance style. Most of them appear to mean the fantasy type rather than the real person type.

Originally Posted by unilaye

I always thought that tribal meant like ... taking on a tribal-like appearance. Tribal-y as in gypsy-like. If that makes any sense at all. Only recently have I realized that it was meant to be danced in a "tribe".

That is a very common misconception that is constantly reinforced by those who claim to be "tribal dancers" simply because they are wearing "organic-y/hippie/ethnic-y costumes".

Originally Posted by zumarrad

However there is a sleeveless choli that a lot of tribal dancers seem to like to wear now, and quite a lot of the ones round here wear saucy contrasting lingerie bras under them in such a way as to show through, while others just wear a coin bra. Loose hair and flowers add to a more conventional feminine presentation. I do think some of the developments in tribal costuming here reflect temperature - Australian and NZ dancers don't like being swaddled in eleventy layers of fabric in the middle of summer - though I always got the impression that SF, being in California, would be, you know, hot anyway.

Is that wrong then to give the more feminine presentation? I'm new and curious and trying to find where I would fit in most, so please be kind!

Originally Posted by spcjones203

Is that wrong then to give the more feminine presentation? I'm new and curious and trying to find where I would fit in most, so please be kind!

Hi and spcjones203!

What I am about to write my be considered controversial, but I have my reasons for it and am even backed up by the training that many "tribal-style" or "tribal fusion" dancers received in their early days:

spcjones203, I would suggest that you start by taking a belly dance class that is not related to tribal or tribal-fusion, or even ATS. Many, if not most, of the folks who teach ATS/tribal/tribal-fusion forms have a background in what could be considered more "classical" BD styles (Egyptian, Turkish, "American Oriental," etc) and later, after getting a good training/grounding in BD, decided to go a more tribal-y route.

I suggest this because the more "classical" forms of BD, if taught properly, will give you the cultural and musical background of BD and ways to interpret the music; the fusion styles -- depending entirely upon the desires of the individual dancers/tribes -- might never once use true ME music for class or for dance and/or might not teach classical BD technique. IMO, if one is going to do fusion of any kind, one must have a very good understanding of whatever is being fused together -- and if a person is going to do a fusion that includes "belly dance" in its moniker, then the person doing it should know how to belly dance.

I know from your other thread in this forum that you're truly and sincerely searching for something that is a good fit for you. I truly and sincerely hope you discover it and become the best darned BDer you can be! :Abiggrin:

Deborah

I agree with casbahdance 100% . Learning where the roots of the dance are, and the culture it came from is a good idea. Plus, learning the fundementals of belly dancing, good technique and posture is very important. I began with Egyptian and made the switch to tribal. I'm glad I did because I have a lot more knowledge now because of it.