Thread: Tribal-style culture - evolution?

As recently as 5 years ago, Tribal-style dancers used to say, "There is no such thing as a 'tribal-style solo' - in order for it to be tribal, you need to have a tribe." When BDSS originally featured Rachel Brice as a soloist, I heard a lot of complaints about that from the Tribal community.

But today, it seems as though Tribal Fusion has embraced the soloist notion with a passion. You obviously can't do ATS/ITS without a tribe, but lots of Tribal Fusion dancers consider themselves to be "Tribal style" even when they're doing solos.

I'd be interested in hearing what the Tribal-style dancers on bhuz think about this.

Do YOU think Tribal Fusion qualifies under the Tribal umbrella, even when it is being done as a solo, or even when an ensemble is performing choreography? How would you define Tribal in today's climate?

I think it has moved beyond anything we can have an opinion on. It's a fact. Tribal Fusion now equals many more things in hte mind of the public, beyond ATS fused performances.

I have long felt that Rachel Brice and others of her stylistic persuasion could use a word o their own to describe what they do. It has clearly moved beyond its tribal roots into something unique. But beating that dead horse is a waste of time...

In previous discussions on Bhuz, the term "urban world fusion" was suggested to refer to many of the more recent style trends. I very much like that idea.

Originally Posted by steffib

In previous discussions on Bhuz, the term "urban world fusion" was suggested to refer to many of the more recent style trends. I very much like that idea.

Yep, ditto. I think it is descriptive, and sounds exciting.

I honestly find the term "tribal fusion" to be completely confusing-- which is sad because I sort of perform it! ..c::

It makes sense to me to call all types of group improv inspired by ATS "Tribal". It makes sense to me to even go further back and call stuff inspired by, say, Bal Anat "Tribal" (although other people would use the term "ethnic", I think a lot of that stuff was made up and so "tribal" describes it better to me).
So, to me, choreo is OK, but it has to at least resemble something that's come from these sources (and not just in costuming) in order to be considered "tribal".

In some ways it also makes sense to me to call something "tribal fusion" when you can clearly identify the "tribalness" and the other element the dancer(s) is/are fusing (like perhaps another form of bellydance or world dance). But if you can't see the "tribal" element, isn't it just "fusion"?

I have taken to calling everything I do as a soloist "fusion" rather than "tribal fusion" because, while I stick to an ATS-esque movement vocabulary while doing group improv, when I do solos I use way too much stuff from my other bellydance background- Egyptian and American Cabaret, mostly- and I don't feel like it's "tribal" any more. (not that this matters outside my little world in central North Carolina!)

I feel like the term "tribal fusion" is frequently both misused and misleading, basically, and I'd have a really hard time pinning down a definition...

I agree, Sara. I called myself "tribal fusion" for a long time and then thought, "Why am I still doing that?" My dancing is no longer primarily tribal-based, so it's not accurate anymore. Now, I just say I perform "fusion."

I get the impression that the "tribal" in TF is now a matter of technique, costuming and the elusive "attitude". Being part of a visible tribe is not needed.

I think most dancers who call themselves TF these days do so based entirely on costuming, music, attitude, and wanting to be a "cool kid".

By all means not all. But most.

We have always considered ourselves tribal fusion because we fuse tribal group improv with choreography and other aesthetics. But today we tend to just stick with "tribal" (since 80%-100% of our performances are imrpov), and avoid the tribal fusion moniker because too many people think Rachel Brice.

Do you see a day when the big Tribal events such as Tribal Fest start excluding the "no longer contains tribal aesthetic" or "urban world fusion" type of dancers in the way they exclude Egyptian-style dancers today? Or do you think they will remain inclusive of anything that's not-beads-and-sequins in nature?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Do you see a day when the big Tribal events such as Tribal Fest start excluding the "no longer contains tribal aesthetic" or "urban world fusion" type of dancers in the way they exclude Egyptian-style dancers today? Or do you think they will remain inclusive of anything that's not-beads-and-sequins in nature?

I don't attend TribalFest, but I get the impression that the shock value of some of this stuff is part of what attracts the crowds, therefore makes money for the event, so not likely to be excluded.

I think Tribal Fest will be whatever Kajira wants it to be. She has made it clear it is HER show, and being a BurningMan type gal, I suspect it will continue further and further from bellydance as the years go on because she loves alllll that alternative culture stuff.

There is a Tribal event, Cues and Tattoos, that requires that you do some sort of improv in order to perform. I believe it must also be group improv.

I don't think that we'll see this kind of thing happening on a wider scale, though, with events like Tribal Fest. These events have always been a sort of refuge for performers who are too "weird" for traditional BD events such as Rakkassah.

I personally try to strive to be inclusive of other dancers (unless they are hideously unethical or something) regardless of style or label. Some of my good friends really love the term "tribal fusion" and use it to describe themselves. I don't like the term but I don't get up in their face about it.

I love Cues & Tattoos. It is put on here in Seattle by Troupe Hipnotica, friends of ours who also perform group improv.

If I did a solo I would probably use the term tribal fusion but that's because I dance tribal with a group 99.9% of the time. So my solo will pull from the rest of my BD education but will be heavily flavored with my primary experience. If I did more solos I'm sure I'd move it away from the tribal term because I'd probably pull more and more from non-tribal influences.

ATS actually has solos, though they have pretty tight parameters. I still find Carolena's shimmy solo (to the Nubian clapping song) on the "Live!" DVD to be utterly captivating, even though her movement vocabulary is quite small.

I think if it's still using an ATS/ITS movement base modified for solo dancing, with the tribal posture and presentation, approximate costuming guidelines, etc. I'd probably see it as tribal fusion. One the costume gets minimal or morphed, the posture changes, the attitude softens or strengthens, the music moves mostly out of the ME realm and so on I'd just call it fusion.

I think TF will keep going and going and going and more power to it because there has to be a venue for that! Cues and Tattoos sounds more my speed.

This discussion reminds me of the Carolena/Rachel swap pics on Rachel's tribe:

Freaky Friday! - tribe.net

Rachel As Carolena & Carolena as Rachel - tribe.net

Originally Posted by steffib

In previous discussions on Bhuz, the term "urban world fusion" was suggested to refer to many of the more recent style trends. I very much like that idea.

Yeah, I love it.

It's accurate, makes that style sound immensely fashionable, and also doesn't take away from either ATS or American Classic styles.

I also like "world dance theater" and similar variants.

Originally Posted by TribalDancer

We have always considered ourselves tribal fusion because we fuse tribal group improv with choreography and other aesthetics. But today we tend to just stick with "tribal" (since 80%-100% of our performances are imrpov), and avoid the tribal fusion moniker because too many people think Rachel Brice.

This is what happened to us too. We used the term tribal fusion to describe our troupe because, even though based in ATS, we developed our own material and also brought into it our Egyptian training, hence our fusion style. Aside from that we also added choreography to our plate while still sticking with group improv. When Tribal Fusion came to be understood as the Rachel Brice et al style, be it solo or troupe, we changed our style moniker to Egypto-Tribal Fusion to keep ourselves more specific and to dissuade folks from thinking we were a band of Brice cakes (which is not to say I don't love Rachel... I do! I just don't want to *be* her. I want to be me!)

My troupe have always called ourselves world fusion bellydance because although we can do group improv, it isn't specifically ATS, and we also do choreography. We also have a few pieces that have a heavy Indian influences. We're not particularly "urban" though. We lean more in the Bal Anat direction.

Originally Posted by kazoogrrl

This discussion reminds me of the Carolena/Rachel swap pics on Rachel's tribe:

Freaky Friday! - tribe.net

Rachel As Carolena & Carolena as Rachel - tribe.net

I love those pictures!

I'm not a Tribal dancer of any sort, but I'd like to chime in with a few things:

1. Old-style non-Tribal dancers ALWAYS improv'd and some of us still do.

2. A lot of those "tribal fusion" costumes look awful familiar; didn't I used to wear a lot of the same style back when I did my own sewing? I still like them, but I'm still an old-school ME dancer. Oh, BTW, coins? We used'em them, still use 'em now. (I've been told recently that my style is classified as "Tribaret". Something about the flat-footed and Turkish influence. WTF?)

3. Rachel Brice no longer calls herself "tribal"; she calls herself "dark cabaret" which I find even more (for want of a better word) annoying.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.......g.:

*nods*

It makes me giggle that tribal is finding its way back to the hated cabaret. They used to say that tribal was a reaction against what was seen as the overt sexual display of American Cabaret. Well, looky now.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

*nods*

It makes me giggle that tribal is finding its way back to the hated cabaret. They used to say that tribal was a reaction against what was seen as the overt sexual display of American Cabaret. Well, looky now.

They're still saying that...some of the quotes from fans in this Indigo tribe.net thread are priceless. Sooo many people (not all, but a lot) are still defining tribal by Not Sexual, Not Shiny, Not Out To Attract Men...do they think all traditional bellydance classes and workshops focus on sex appeal and male psychology instead of technique, presentation, and history?

The thing is, a lot of people who know nothing much about BD think that. Before there was a lot of tribal there was obviously still a split in some BDers minds between (Evil) Cabaret, designed for the male gaze, and beledi which is the ancient wimminz dance (o hai Suraya Hilal). I read an article about BD by two nonBDer Australian academics, who looked at some classes where the dancers had told them of this stylistic difference. What I found interesting, and frustrating, was the way that the academics just *assumed* that, for example, a two-piece costume was designed *and worn* solely to attract men. Yeah, sure, it might have started life that way but most BDers don't put on a bedleh and think "tonight, I'm gonna score!!" They also thought that the heterosexual dancers danced differently than the lesbian ones, more seductively. I *wish* there had been footage or more detailed descriptions of why they came to those conclusions.

Articles by non-BDers almost always assume that bedleh is entirely for men. Presumably because women's bodies are entirely for men, unless they are in some kind of homespun all-women commune.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

What I found interesting, and frustrating, was the way that the academics just *assumed* that, for example, a two-piece costume was designed *and worn* solely to attract men.

It's really interesting that the early tribal gals started out with the "choli", the Indian name for an Indian everyday garment, even though similar short bodice tops have been worn by Middle-Eastern bellydancers as stagewear before. But it's not a sexy, revealing top - it's a CHOLI!..l;,

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Yeah, sure, it might have started life that way but most BDers don't put on a bedleh and think "tonight, I'm gonna score!!" They also thought that the heterosexual dancers danced differently than the lesbian ones, more seductively.

O RLY? What, did they poll the dancers on their sex lives?.w.:

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Articles by non-BDers almost always assume that bedleh is entirely for men. Presumably because women's bodies are entirely for men, unless they are in some kind of homespun all-women commune.

Everyone I know dresses for themselves or other women. Where are all these non-existent men we're supposedly dressing for? They don't come to class, buy tickets to shows, or buy dance performance DVDs (with a few notable exceptions).

[QUOTE=kahaz;347811]

3. Rachel Brice no longer calls herself "tribal"; she calls herself "dark cabaret" which I find even more (for want of a better word) annoying.

QUOTE]

No offense but I'm curious...What annoys you about that term? Or are you annoyed by her redefining what she does?

I actually had the good fortune to attend Rachel Brice's Dark Cabaret Workshop in Chicago. I believe the name described well the content of the workshop which focused on a choreography to a funky song by the group Man Man. Other than sidewinders, I don't recall any of the steps or combos in the choreography seeming at all based on ATS. She described the moves using American Cabaret terms. (An aside: I understand that "American Cabaret" is a term not favored by many here on Bhuz but it is a useful way of describing a style of belly dance to a wide majority of belly dance students.)

I believe there were also some moves that she described as more "Egyptian" in style along with the many "fusion" moves which I recognized from studying jazz and ballet. The music and "attitude" we tried to convey through our movements and facial expressions qualified it as "Dark" (i.e. sassy, macabre and tongue-in-cheek).

So since what she taught really wasn't Tribal, Tribal Fusion or anything resembling ATS at all, I thought it wise of her to avoid using that term. I had a pretty clear expectation of what I would learn in the workshop and I was not disappointed.

Originally Posted by da Sage

It's really interesting that the early tribal gals started out with the "choli", the Indian name for an Indian everyday garment, even though similar short bodice tops have been worn by Middle-Eastern bellydancers as stagewear before. But it's not a sexy, revealing top - it's a CHOLI!..l;,

The FCBD choli is based on the Indian garment. Carolena Nericcio has done her homework and studied the roots and construction of ethnic garments. I recommend Vol. 2 from the FCBD video series, where she talks about this.

Originally Posted by da Sage

They're still saying that...some of the quotes from fans in this Indigo tribe.net thread are priceless. Sooo many people (not all, but a lot) are still defining tribal by Not Sexual, Not Shiny, Not Out To Attract Men...do they think all traditional bellydance classes and workshops focus on sex appeal and male psychology instead of technique, presentation, and history?

A lot of what I read in that tribe thread does not line up with my view of tribal at all - in addition of having a solid background in and love for oriental, I studied several years with a well-known world fusion troupe, and have studied, taught and performed ATS. Dancing ATS is just a heck of a lot of fun; leading a group while dancing improv to live music, hitting the end of the song just right and knowing the group is "on" without having eyes in my back - THAT is my idea of a good time. For me, the sheer joy of dancing with a group has always been the main inspiration, I just have the grandest time when I am around people who enjoy dance. It does not sit right with me when tribal is characterized as an answer to perceived "flaws" of oriental, this argument does not do justice to the fact that tribal is sheer joy in its own right, just like oriental.

I suspect that that many of the ladies who responded on the above thread are rather young. Looking at this from the other side of 40, I just shrug my shoulders at these convoluted ideas about oriental, sexuality, and what not. It's just so silly from my personal perspective, as a middle-aged, happily married woman whose wild years were 20 years ago, and who has made peace with cellulite, gray hair, and a few extra pounds. I guess I should be flattered by all this talk about oriental and being seductive ;-)

Originally Posted by da Sage

They're still saying that...some of the quotes from fans in this Indigo tribe.net thread are priceless. Sooo many people (not all, but a lot) are still defining tribal by Not Sexual, Not Shiny, Not Out To Attract Men...do they think all traditional bellydance classes and workshops focus on sex appeal and male psychology instead of technique, presentation, and history?

Please note that only a couple made any reference to what you are asserting, and that in fact most of tribal dancers on that thread did NOT agree with these sentiments at all and defended more accurate points about philosophical and technique differences between the two.

And I think that many people in tribal DO perform tribal because they want to feel that "fierce beauty" and non-flirty energy. That isn't to say that some tribal isn't sexy, and it isn't to say that all cabaret is, but that in their definition and in their interpretation of tribal there isn't a space for that flirty energy.

Every time someone says "I dance tribal because ______" doesn't automatically mean they are saying cabaret ISN'T those things. Just that in their experience, with their personal style of tribal, it fulfills what they are seeking...

So can we please not thinly veil some tribal bashing or rehash the "cabaret vs tribal" thing in this discussion? There is ignorance on both sides about what is and is not a facet of each particular style. You do realize the more we sensationalize the few idiots who actually believe there is some terrific rift between styles, the more that rumor will continue to proliferate, right?

PS I don't mean to sound like I am jumping all over you daSage, though your post did send me off on this mini-rant. it was more addressing everyone in the thread who might hop on this tangent...

Originally Posted by steffib

The FCBD choli is based on the Indian garment. Carolena Nericcio has done her homework and studied the roots and construction of ethnic garments. I recommend Vol. 2 from the FCBD video series, where she talks about this.

This. The only thing that gets revealed in that choli is the back, which is quite sexy in its way, but generally unless you are VERY busty and/or wearing a bra underneath, it flattens and hides the breasts, and the addition of the sleeves also makes it look more modest IMO. If you add giant opaque pants and a big skirt and a turban, the ONLY bits of body that are exposed by FCBD costuming are the torso below the bustline and the back. No long girly hair, no cleavage, no leg. Facial tattoos. It's not conventionally "sexy" though it is quite beautiful.

However there is a sleeveless choli that a lot of tribal dancers seem to like to wear now, and quite a lot of the ones round here wear saucy contrasting lingerie bras under them in such a way as to show through, while others just wear a coin bra. Loose hair and flowers add to a more conventional feminine presentation. I do think some of the developments in tribal costuming here reflect temperature - Australian and NZ dancers don't like being swaddled in eleventy layers of fabric in the middle of summer - though I always got the impression that SF, being in California, would be, you know, hot anyway.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Though I always got the impression that SF, being in California, would be, you know, hot anyway.

There was a quote by Mark Twain: "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco." When the fog rolls in in the afternoon, which is common in the middle of summer, San Francisco gets really COLD. People used to wear their winter coats to evening baseball games at Candlestick Park (a baseball stadium in San Francisco).