Thread: Placing folkloric dances on stage

This thread was inspired by the one on melaya leff. We were talking about the incorrect information out there that claims the dance originated as prostitutes going down to the docks to solicit sailors, and Nasila raised a couple of questions that I thought might be an interesting issue to explore in a separate thread. (Nasila, I hope you don't mind my quoting you, but you raised some points I thought were well worth discussing!)

She said: "Wasn't it standard attire for most women when they went out in public? So, most kinds of women would wear one? I can see that Reda had a specific idea in mind when he created the character, but it seems the act has taken on a mind of its own over the years."

In other words... how much artistic license should we allow ourselves when creating our own individual interpretations of either a dance form someone else invented (such as melaya leff, which is based on Mahmoud Reda's work) or of a traditional folk dance?

If we take artistic license, should we try to stay close to the originator's vision?

If we take artistic license and we think it's okay to diverge a bit from the originator's vision, should we try to at least keep it within boundaries that an audience member from that country would feel is respectful of his culture? Or doesn't it matter what people from that culture think of our portrayals of their dances?

If there is even a chance in hell that a member of said culture you are borrowing from is in the audience, you better play it straight. You don't want people to whisper, "she's doing it wrong!"

Seriously, though, I would be careful with playing around with other people's cultures. I know people who throw together a little fantasy of what they want, and call it something it isn't. It isn't so much that I'm worried about offending; they just look STUPID. (I have a friend from China who looks at those slashy-dagger letters they use on Chinese take-out joints, and he says, "Where the hell do they get this? There's nothing in China that looks like this!")

That's why I'm a big fan of the term "fantasy." Not even fusion, really because what if what you're fusing never even existed before...? So put on your giant Anubis head and strut around in a ribbon of gold lame if that is what you want to do. Whatever. Just don't make yourself look stupid when you try to represent someone's culture and do it wrong. Someone will notice, and they will laugh at you.

I think anyone who clearly respects this as an artform would stay within certain cultural boundarires that anyone from that particular culture would feel is respectful no matter what style of dance they are doing from that culture, one of the folkloric dances or a classic Raks Sharqi piece. That is why it is important to study this dance as best you can and get as much history about it. No matter what someone does for a living or as a hobby they should be educated in it so as not to make a fool out of themself or offend anyone in the process. It is common sense if you ask me.
When I was in Egypt taking a workshop last year and saw Freiz take the malaya and throw it up in the air as part of a choreography I was shocked. I would never do that to my dance partner!! And when I told Sahra about it she said that is our influence on them, that they try to make it different or add things and now they are going way out of the box of what is appropriate for handling this prop. (yes I know that was another thread..I agree, even if this Egyptian did it, doesn't mean we should!)

I had a long talk with Ahmet Luleci about this exact issue. He told me to take as much artistic license as I thought I needed, in order to get across what I wanted to say. I told him I wasn't comfortable doing that, since I'm NOT part of the culture, and he turned around and told me "You worry too much."

I'm really split down the middle on this, and lately I've been giving the issue a lot of thought.

I remember reading not too long ago the Lakota Declaration of War: War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality and thinking, "yeah, I can totally see why they're upset." Reading that really taught me to be a lot more careful when associating anything with the practices of any cultures, and to make sure I have a firm grounding in the FACTS and not just what I imagine or have been told.

But on the other hand, I'm an artist. I think I should be able to express myself as an artist. If my heart tells me that this goes here in this song, then it does! I think it's important on this side to be able to express ourselves. It is in this way, also, that culture evolves.

I just always take care to claim that "this is NOT necessarily representational of anyone's culture, just me!" first.

When I introduce this topic to students, we play 'imagine':

Imagine that you've been lucky enough to be "over there" and you fall into a wonderful celebration. You are invited to a community party and spend most of the evening making friends and dancing. Let's say a debke (I've learned several versions, from several places, so no one jump on me about my description, OK? Imagine!) It's one of your favorite memories, ever, and you decide at the next Middle Eastern dance show that you are in to stage the amazing, authentic dance that you learned and participated in.

So far, you are being VERY authentic. You have prime source for knowledge and you were there.

So, the staging.
Problem 1. The dance you were doing was done in a circle. Very cool if you are doing it, but all anyone looking up at the stage is going to see is backs and butts. Moving in circle. OK, stage compromise 1. We'll move into either lines or visually appealing groups.

Problem 2. Now that we're not all joined in hands in a circle, we don't know what the leader is doing. Compromise 2. We'd better choreograph, at least loosely.

Problem 3. If we're going to choreograph, we're going to need music that has some fairly obvious cues/changes. Compromise 3. Find some music that has the same rhythm and tempo and feel, but that a group that's choreographing can understand.

Problem 4. There are like 4 steps in the whole thing (main problem with staging folk dances: they're great to do, not so fun to watch!). Compromise 4. Better add in some flashier moves. (enter Mahmoud Reda)

Problem 5. The original had everyone holding hands, so there are like NO arm movements. Boring to watch! (Enter Micheal Flatly; seriously) Compromise 5. Add some interesting arm/hand/upper body moves to complement the hips.

Problem 6. The costumes are kinda plain. Compromise 6. Better glitz up a bit.

And on, and on, and on. Now, the teacher asks, At what point did we cross the line from authentic to fantasy? From respect to co-opt? From homage to let-me-trash-your-culture?

Please note: when I ask questions like this it's NOT because I have the answers, it's to make those folk that I'm trying to influence think.

And that's my take

Did you see Bedouin Tribal by the Ramzys?

They manage to make up for a "boring" limited movement vocabulary by recreating the stage to look like a Bedouin tent, brightening the color of the costumes, and using a "chorus" of dancers to help add visual variety to the soloist's dance.

The Tamboritzans use a lot of "stage tricks" to add variety and visual interest to their staging of folk dances, including the use of live musicians dancing on stage as well. This is a little hard to do on a smaller scale, though.

Kahaz: I think it crosses when someone who happens to be Lebenese, in that audience says, "What? That isn't a debke."

In the USA, especially, though I imagine it true in a lot of areas, we are pretty far from these cultures. I am not Lebanese, do not know much about what being Lebanese is all about, and haven't had the whole Lebanese family, religion, food, customs, and all the other stuff as a daily staple in my life... therefore, for me to do a Lebanese dance, I'm going in totally blindly.

I went to a pow-wow a few years ago, and was awed and fascinated by the dancing I saw. I felt very compelled to dance, as well, as the thundering drums were so amazing. But I stopped myself and said, "I don't have any clue what I'm doing here. I'll just sit back and be moved by the drums and dance in my appreciating others."

In the USA, I feel like as a general rule, people are kind of scrambling around for some sort of cultural identity - and as such, we borrow and adopt, without really being able to have the heart of what these customs are all about (after all, we didn't grow up with a Lebanese grandmother giving us lessons on life and teaching us her secret recipes).

But also, in that, we have the freedom to form our own cultures as well. I think that a lot of tribal dance here has done beautifully with it - it does not necessarily adopt any one existing culture, but instead is an expression of a part of American culture here. If you go look around places like Burning Man and music festivals and such, you'll see a lot of the other facets of this culture.

To me, the problem is when dancers don't advertise what they are doing accurately. Most dancers do not have the resources to study extensively overseas with master teachers, and are at the mercy of what information they can scrounge up at home. Occasionally, this will be MISinformation, and it will result in something that isn't as authentic as desired or intended--can't do much about that. Certainly, you can't do much about the fact that there is a lot of conflicting-but-valid information between different factions of the same culture. As long as you make it clear where your information came from, I don't have an issue with calling this sort of dance "authentic."

On the other hand, if your muse compels you to do a Lebanese debke to a Norwegian song wearing a clown costume, then as long as the audience knows that this is Your Art and not anything even remotely authentic, it's fair game under artistic license, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

On the other hand, if your muse compels you to do a Lebanese debke to a Norwegian song wearing a clown costume, then as long as the audience knows that this is Your Art and not anything even remotely authentic, it's fair game under artistic license, I suppose.

Hahaha. Just because it's Your Art doesn't necessarily means that it's Good Art. ..l;,

Hmm, then again, I'd probably love something like this, in a Weird Al kind of way.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

On the other hand, if your muse compels you to do a Lebanese debke to a Norwegian song wearing a clown costume, then as long as the audience knows that this is Your Art and not anything even remotely authentic, it's fair game under artistic license, I suppose.

Actually, that'd probably be easy to do as Norwegian songs/folkdances often are "runners".....l;,

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

To me, the problem is when dancers don't advertise what they are doing accurately. Most dancers do not have the resources to study extensively overseas with master teachers, and are at the mercy of what information they can scrounge up at home. Occasionally, this will be MISinformation, and it will result in something that isn't as authentic as desired or intended--can't do much about that. Certainly, you can't do much about the fact that there is a lot of conflicting-but-valid information between different factions of the same culture. As long as you make it clear where your information came from, I don't have an issue with calling this sort of dance "authentic."...

BRAVO!! Excellent point!! This is a big problem in this art form, the lack of historical/authentic info available to the general public. Even on the internet there is a lot of misinformation. And yes I have noticed that too, that even the top cultural authorities in this dance don't always agree as to what is authentic and proper and what is not. Nothing is black or white is it? So true you are...you can only do what to you is believed to be authentic. I just urge people to seek as many different sources as possible when doing there research on a particular dance they want to represent on stage.

I usually play it safe and use "inspired by" or "as choreographed by xxx" - because I know there is no way it is going to be authentic - partly that list of compromises by Kahaz, partly because each dance (and costume) is specific to one time and place and what most of use learn is a meta-style (for instance just one or two versions of debke or a mix of moves from different Bedouin tribes), and partly because most of use do not have the time or skill or experience to actually perform "the real thing".

That given, I think the characteristic moves need to be there; obvious additions should not (I'm think full body undulations for Egyptian folk, veil for Schikhatt) - but allow for some sympathetic staging movement. Costumes should convey the originals - for instance fully covered, or sleeve shape - but changes for practicality - washable and easy to change in and out of - are fine if they don't destroy the overall look.

The other issue which is harder is to keep the original feel - high energy for men's sa`iidi, strong for ghawazee, "salt if the earth" for milaya lef

Well, first of all, I personally differentiate between "folk", as in what people do, and "folkloric" as in "gussied up for stage versions of what people do, possibly quite political, state-sanctioned things." So for me anything on a stage is folklore, and if it's Egyptian folklore it's probably Reda or Firqa-influenced. Secondly, I do not believe in authenticity and view all culture and all cultural artifacts as hybrid, and subject to change.

Like Kashmir I prefer "inspired by" because anything I do is, well, me, and it looks like me, though it's informed by all the knowledge I have amassed and continue to amass.

When I did a milaya leff choreo last year I actually went through a complex process of analysing my own approach, because milaya leff dances carry quite a complex series of "othering" layers even before I get my hands on them. Upper class mid 20th century Cairene theatrical presentation of beledl woman, picked up and run with by BDers in ME and elsewhere, now laden with certain conventions and expectations in order to be seen as "authentically" presented in the globalised BD world. I think personally that as dancers we negotiate the expectations of *other dancers *- you don't want the Ethnic Police or whoever going THAT IS NOT PROPER MELAYA OMG for fear that other BDers might not know that you know - with the need to present to a GP audience which *may* contain Egyptian people as well.

I don't think it's necessary to preserve melaya leff in aspic as if nothing has changed in the world since the late 50s. In the end, for me, the way to think is: "if Arabic people were there, would I feel much as if a black person walked in on me going 'doo dah doo dah oh lordy massa' in blackface?" If the answer is in any way yes, don't.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I don't think it's necessary to preserve melaya leff in aspic as if nothing has changed in the world since the late 50s.

Just for curiosity's sake, would you use a melaya in a dance portraying a 1990's or 2000's Cairene woman even though women mostly quit using melayas a couple of decades back (except for possibly the older ones) or would you try to keep your melaya usage within the era in which melayas were actually worn?

No, I'd use a melaya to demonstrate a dance using a melaya in conventionally accepted fashion. I am not pretending to be a 1950s Cairo beledi girl when I dance with a melaya. I am trying to draw on the characteristics that are deemed beledi and using them in the dance. I *might* do one for a dance audience which was more conventional, ie with the bur'a and proper shipship and such - that would be fun. But I am very used to "non-conventional" melaya which is more about the feel than the strict theatrical reproduction of a Reda piece. The first melaya leff pieces I ever saw were danced in contemporary streetwear, ie simple long stretch dresses, loose hair, minimal jewellery, heels (in one case) and in another case, denim mini-skirt and top. I'd love to do it in jeans, actually.

I figure that any "folk dance" that is a) being presented on stage or b) being taught has already been stylized and modified from being an "in the field" experience and that much of that modification has been for a certain agenda (to present the people as.../to present an image of the culture as....) and for aesthetic/stage purposes.

Add to this that most "on the street/home/ritual" dances are not happening in a bubble and are often influenced BY stage presentations of folk dances and sources from all around the world via movies/tv/stage images they experience. They aren't untouched.

I'm sure that some of what Ahmet said (he was just here and well and we talked) comes from the fact that he is aware of the many liberties he and others take when they "present dance." When he was here he also praised one of our local dancers (Nourah, for her work with Baba Zula [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKsCIWjn228]YouTube - Babazula with Nourah / Tour in Denmark[/ame] ) because of the work she has done to bring herself and her culture to Turkish dance instead of just trying to fit herself into Turkish dance.

I think it is important that we think about these things, grapple with them, but not view what we have been taught or seen from the ME as some sacred law not to be touched

(you tube clip not really relevant to folk dance, as Baba Zula is Turkish Psychedelic and all, but I have much love for Nourah)

Originally Posted by zumarrad

preserve melaya leff in aspic

Zum, you have the best way of putting things! I love this!

This thread makes me think about the story Sahra told us where she learned a choreography with melaya from Nadia Hamdi (the gum-chewing and hand-to-belly-shimmy one) and how she performed it on stage for the first time with Mahmoud in the audience. She saw Mahmoud wagging a finger at her while still on stage, and freaked out because she didn't know what she'd done wrong. She finished up quickly and ran offstage and he "scolded" her afterward for doing "nasty" things (referring to the hand-on-belly-shimmy, which is an ghawazee/public-dancer reference). This was okay for Nadia Hamdi...everyone understood her references and loved her interpretation of the dance. And Nadia Hamdi taught it to Sahra (I'm assuming without malice, but perhaps without explaining as much as was needed). And Lucy uses similar references. But for Sahra, who was an outsider and "protected" and "innocent" in the eyes of Mahmoud, and who diligently tries to represent Reda's dances in their original form, these adaptations were not acceptable.

Sahra also taked about how when Fifi performs in a man's white galabeya it is really a reference to (post-return to Cairo) Awalem women, representing a coffee-house girl that's tough and ready and smoking and spitting. But I have yet to see someone else wearing a man's galabeya don this persona. Debbie Lammam came close, I suppose, but it seems something is always lost in the translation...and some things added and changed and adapted. And unless you are trying to actually recreate something it its original form, shouldn't they be, as the art evolves?

Yeah, I think the man's galabeya tends to be a signifier, for me, of a dancer who really admires Fifi. Certainly the galabeya performances I have seen tend to be fairly "tough", even if on-stage smoking etc are not included. But the sort of stuff that Fifi does with her shisha dance, like perhaps the Nadia Hamdi things you referred to, are culturally quite specific and would largely be lost on your average GP audience outside Egypt. *Unless* you fuse into something locally relevant and recognisable, whereupon it becomes something else.

If I get a man's galabeya it will be a signifier of my admiration for *Tito*.

....I cant wait to see someone with a dubie in a galabaya with a surfboard next... LOL... San Diego local relevant.... OH and add eating a burrito to that...

I want to get someone to drag me across the stage as if I am road-surfing, Gulf-style.

I'd have to do a bhangra outfit with a viking helmet while eating a burger along with the Melaya to reflect who I am lol

Back to topic....sorry...

I guess I'd need a plaid flannel galabeya with a rope belt under my melaya, and a bushel of corn to carry around instead of a marketing basket.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I guess I'd need a plaid flannel galabeya with a rope belt under my melaya, and a bushel of corn to carry around instead of a marketing basket.

OK, thats it I'm calling Michelle Joyce about doing a "show me who you are - Melaya Style" show DVD shoot.... LOL Just imagine what characters would come through... we could set a whole new standards *joking*

Starting a new thread on this just for goofiness' sake.
http://www.bhuz.com/forum/352517-post1.html

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Yeah, I think the man's galabeya tends to be a signifier, for me, of a dancer who really admires Fifi. Certainly the galabeya performances I have seen tend to be fairly "tough", even if on-stage smoking etc are not included. But the sort of stuff that Fifi does with her shisha dance, like perhaps the Nadia Hamdi things you referred to, are culturally quite specific and would largely be lost on your average GP audience outside Egypt. *Unless* you fuse into something locally relevant and recognisable, whereupon it becomes something else.

If I get a man's galabeya it will be a signifier of my admiration for *Tito*.

When I wear the white galabeya something different comes out in me. I feel free to scold the audience a little, be a little flippant, cheeky if you will. Wearing it makes me feel like playing off the masculine and the feminine sides of my personality. I sometimes wear a beaded gold costume bra underneath and unbutton the front so that the bra shows. Its like wearing an oversized man's dress shirt with just panties underneath. Is that wierd?

Originally Posted by Souzan

When I wear the white galabeya something different comes out in me. I feel free to scold the audience a little, be a little flippant, cheeky if you will. Wearing it makes me feel like playing off the masculine and the feminine sides of my personality. I sometimes wear a beaded gold costume bra underneath and unbutton the front so that the bra shows. Its like wearing an oversized man's dress shirt with just panties underneath. Is that wierd?

Weird? No, it's AWESOME!! You and I must have watched the same Doris Day type movies?

I want to see you dance in the white galabeya now.

I have wanted to see this for a long time, Souzan. I can just imagine you being fantastically sassy! Is there any video you can share?

Pictures, no video. Just got some recently that I will have to post. Just found out that the videos from last performance were ruined somehow. Another time the videographer totally pooped out and never made dvds. And another when the band did not want videotape to prevent it from being put on YouTube. I might have to do a living room performance for my sister's birthday and have her tape it.

Souzan