Thread: Spinoff: To dance or not to dance, that's the question

So, here's the spin off from nisaasaintlouis's thread Musings on a Reda troupe clip - in blackface (no, really).

Lets see what our feelings are on the following dilemmas/questions/issues:
1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?
2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?
3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?
4. Is it possible to seggregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?
5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?
6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?

So, lets keep the replies to what each one of us feel about these questions and lets not comment on each other's posts for starters... Lets give it a week and THEN we can get into a discussion about the answers we've gotten? Hows that? Let's play!

Originally Posted by david

1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?
2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?
3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?
4. Is it possible to seggregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?
5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?
6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?

1: Belly dance is based on a subset of Middle Eastern dance. As long as it maintains the link it is still belly dance. If your dance no longer represents some aspect of MED it has moved beyond the label of "belly dance".

2: No problem with non-Middle Easterners representing Middle Eastern culture and heritage.

3: A dancer has to maintain some aspect of the original (ME) culture - but it is not a requirement to hold onto all. Belly dance is not creative dance or freeform - to hold the label it has to stay within the bounds.

4: Not really. If you just have movement technique you probably have jazz rather than belly dance.

5: AmCab seems to have enough links back to the culture to be belly dance. Much of what I have seen of fusion does not.

6: Valid as dance styles - but not necessarily as belly dance styles.

Nice and clear questions that do help untangle the issues! First of all, a lot of the confusion can be sidestepped by not using the American name "belly dance" which I don't.

Q 1: Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?

A: Raks Sharki, Raks Beledi, Raks al Shemandan, etc., are definitely Middle Eastern dances. That's what I study and naturally attempt to represent

Q 2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?

A: I study Middle Eastern dances (I'm American) and perform them at student shows. I have no problem with knowledgeable non-ME teachers and performers

Q 3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?

A: To keep it the same dance, you have to adhere not only to the technique and movement vocabulary and music, but also to the spirit. And yet, you can probably never recreate it outside the culture completely "without an accent" and that's OK too. Just like it's OK for other countries to adopt baseball, or cuisine, or non-native English speakers to write poetry in English.

Q 4. Is it possible to segregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?

A: You can't 100% transplant it, because not only do nonnatives not grow up with the language and music and exposure, we just plain don't have the same entertainment customs and institutions. We approach the dance from a dance class perspective. Natives don't. But we shouldn't beat ourselves up TOO much about this. I do think it's possible to keep close enough that it's still the same dance form and recognizable to natives as such.


Q 5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?

A: Spin-off forms with their own esthetics and integrity that deserve separate names and classes for their sake as well as the original forms.

Q 6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?

A: I've only studied the Egyptian forms and am not an expert in any form. I have no basis for commenting on other forms. But I would say that of course they are valid in their own right. I am for clarity.

P.S. I realize that complete clarity is impossible. Art forms change within their own places of origin with or without outside influences. With species evolution and speciation, there are scientific parameters for measuring whether a given plant or animal is still species X or has actually become a new species through mutation. With dance we'll never be so lucky. When ME dance was first performed in the West it was already under different circumstances--different kinds of venues, mix of musicians, audience expectations, etc.

Good questions. Cathy

1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?

Not to me. Middle Eastern Dance is Middle Eastern Dance. Bellydance includes Middle Eastern Dance but has since evolved to include Western Dance Asthetics, removed from the historical basis but retaining and redefining the dance vocabulary of movement.

2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?

If their intent is to portray it faithfully, then sure, why not? This does not necessarily have anything to do with dance though. Loaded question

3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?

I think that depends on the dance and the context in which it was taught/learned. Ditto for the music.

4. Is it possible to segregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?

Yes and no. Yes, the dancer can separate it, however the stereotypes and baggage will follow along with the general public, who has its own cultural connotations associated (half naked lady, stripper, terrorist dancer, etc.)

5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?

If Bellydance does not equal Middle Eastern Dance then they can all play in the same sandbox. Hence why I feel Bellydance is the broader term.

6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?

Yes. Why wouldn't they be?

Originally Posted by david

Lets see what our feelings are on the following dilemmas/questions/issues:
1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?
2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?
3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?
4. Is it possible to seggregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?
5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?
6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?
!

1.) Not always - that seems to the choice of the dancer these days. I think this is the same as question 5.
2.) I don't see a problem with that.
3.) If you say you are representing a culture, you should try to do your best to understand and learn about the culture. But you also have to have your own personality, not be a carbon copy.
4.) People have - see ATS and fusion styles. You can always take a dance technique out of the dance - out of any dance - but that doesn't mean it's still part of it. If you just take the technique out of it, it wouldn't be middle eastern dance - that requires cultural input including music.
5.) In the interest of diversity, I accept all of these as bellydance - and middle eastern dance as a subset, the originating subset if you would. There is a place for all of them. But I think if you lose the middle eastern dance subset, you've really lost something valuable and special. I do think it should hold a privileged place in bellydance as the originating dance form that spawned everything else.
6.) Define "valid". As they say - it is the intention to create art that makes it art - that doesn't make it good or bad art.

This is a great topic my husband and i got to go to dinner after the BDUC comp this weekend ;with out the kidds and what did we talk about belly dance.
He started the conversation which was amazing. "He said please don't ever put yearn in you hair ,i saw so many fusion dancers here . is that belly dance?"

#6 I do not beleive some fusion or tribal = use middle eastern dance because they do not use ME music, dress, or most BD moves in there dance .they are missing the ME feeling and folklore base from which the dance was based opon. there moves and some BD moves but also break dancing pops and locks and polonisian and flamenco have similar move so it does not have to be taken from belly dance. I wonder if there are fusion hula dancers? is it not belly dance when there is hardly anything that resembles the Me . But it is dance!
The fusion has gone every direction and from what i have scene far away from "belly dance" as we sterio typically think of it.


# 1 and #5 to perform middle eastern dance and give it the respect it the deserves i feel i need to learn about the history,culture,some language, and the correct moves from that county and use the music that goes with that.
I learned Am Cab first . I studied that for a year and a half and i do think Am Cab is a american created dance but it is based on Me folk and Sharki steps and movement just melted together "america the melting pot " american and other counties do reconize it as belly dance so i think we can call it belly dance . You can tell if the dancer is using a leb,egyptian,turkish move or fusing middle eatern postures and moves. Am cab = ME fusian and it is also mixed with jazz and ballet and fantacy.

#2 yes non middle eastern should represent the culture because it is hard for an Arab to to this dance and not get so much flack or shund my there concervative family. I belive that if we do what i mentioned above by educating our selves and not just shaking what our mama's gave us we are doing this dance justice .I am american "hinze 57" which means i am like the stake sauce mixed with to many thing to count. and i like the freedom to pick and chose what cultural thing i like to adopt. My husband is mexican i am not but i love to make tamales for Christmas eve so i do even though it is a Mexican tradition and my family when i was little did not do that. All kids here do ballet and most are not russian or french decent. So yes all kind of people can do this dance.

#4 yes in how you conduct your self when you are not dancing.

# 3 i feel they are resticting by the Technique if we want to claim to be strickly something. other wise no.
you can see my ADD in this cause i did not go one -six but i think i andswered them all.

Originally Posted by david

1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?

That depends on which style your are referring to, some American styles do like American Cabaret and some do not like Tribal style and Tribal fusion.

2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?

I do not feel it is our responsibility to represent it. We should try to respect it, but the responsibility lays within that culture to represent its self.

3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?

I think that is up to each dancer to establish.

4. Is it possible to seggregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?

Yes and no depending on who's culture your talking about

5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?

I think American Cabaret keeps enough of the visual esthetics, musicality concepts and use of classical belly dance music to say it equals Middle Eastern Dance. Fusion Does not IMHO and therefore I would not consider it Middle Eastern dance.

6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?

Yes, isn't Greek style valid? and its not in the Middle East.

Wow, only five responses in Five days? How long are we going to do this before beginning discussion?

Originally Posted by david

1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?

I consider the term "Belly dance" to be the name for a style OF Middle Eastern dance. And I would expect the dance to be recognized as something an Arab or Turk would see "back home."

2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?

I had a Russian history class in college taught by a Viet Namese professor. I had no problems with this. I would trust Aisha Ali or Shareen el Safy or Sahra Kent to represent ME culture because they have studied it.

3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?

I don't consider the culture to be "restricting" to the dance in any way. Without the cultural aspect, belly dance is Hula. Or aerobic dance.

4. Is it possible to seggregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?

Technique -- sure. I can describe the physical movements of the dance easily. I can't describe the DANCE itself (the art) without the cultural connotation of AT LEAST the music.

5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?

American belly dance is still belly dance if the intent is to represent the same dancer-music relationship that you find in Egyptian or Turkish dance.

Fusion is too undefined for me to say. What kind of fusion? Elena Lentini fuses, and I consider her a belly dancer. Some of the hip-hop industrial music "fusions" bear no resemblance to belly dance to me except for the inclusion of some movements common to belly dance.

6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?

If the intent is to represent the same dancer-music relationship you find in Egypt or Turkey etc, then geographical location of the dancer doesn't matter.

1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?
- You want the long or short version? Shortest possible answer; Yes.

2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?
- How do you mean in represent? Are you "representing" the culture by belly dancing? If you are then yes. However, someone else answered perfectly, it's not up to us to represent another culture. It's up to the culture itself.

3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?
- You aren't. Look at the discussions on this very board. "Styles" are broken apart constantly, movements, core movements, and how technique is done is always changing around. There are fundamentals of the dance that will always stay in it's core, but the freedom of it goes beyond a cultural boundary.

4. Is it possible to seggregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?
- That's a loaded answer, and it depends on who you're answering that question to.

5. Is right out! ...Actually I skipped 5 since my answer was a novel and I'm putting it below.

6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?
- Yes. Why wouldn't they be? They're still dance styles. They're still based on the dance itself.

Now my full answer to #5:
Let's use an example from ballet. George Balanchine has been called "The Father of modern ballet". His vast knowledge of classical ballet, and training allowed him to do this. Movements and techniques many ballerinas use today are Balanchine technique. Not only was he a very talented ballet dancer, but he was well known for choreography in modern dance and jazz, working with many famous dancers. Now, did he change ballet? Yes. Many would argue he perfected it. Did it get called something other than ballet? No. The technique is usually accredited to Balanchine, but it is still ballet.

Balanchine was the founder of the New York City ballet which is world famous, and arguably the most famous ballet company in the US. Many times in their performances they fuse modern dance, and ballet together. Many of their performances includes movements in modern dance, jazz and lyrical along with ballet. However, it is always a ballet, it is always billed as a ballet, it is always called a ballet. Maybe it's just because the playbill saying "New York City Ballet, Modern Dance, Jazz, and Lyrical" would be too long and annoying to read. Who knows?

I use Balanchine and the NYCB as an example in this because it's a similar situation. Many people who do tribal and American Cabaret know the fundamentals of the dance. Many of them began in their "classical" training - in this case they began with more traditional belly dancing. However, they branched out into other forms, learning other techniques, other moves, and styles based on the fundamentals that they previously learned. The dance itself is still there. The core of the dance is still there, and the respect for the original dance is still there. However, Tribal and American Cabaret are other forms of it. There are new techniques, and changes but the essence of it is still a dance we all have fallen in love with.

Obviously, my reasoning can be picked at, and people can say "But we don't have a Balanchine equivalent!" ...no and yes. There are new people in the belly dancing world popping up all the time who perfect and change techniques. In their own right, they are the equivalent. Others can say "Oh that's a bad example, it's apples and oranges." Not really..you're still dealing with a dance, you are still dealing with the arts, and every form of the performing arts has their roots deep somewhere in history. The arts have always existed, and they have changed but they have also stayed very much the same.

1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?
I consider Bellydance the umbrella term and Middle Eastern Dance (Egyptian) a branch of this term. American Cabaret another branch. ATS - ATF - Urban Tribal another branch. Turkish Oriyantal Tanzi another branch. Lebanese another branch. Fusion based styles another branch.

2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?
If they choose to have this focus in their dance, sure, why not.

3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?
It again depends on the chosen focus of the dancer.

4. Is it possible to seggregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?
From a general public stand point anything that has with hip movements to do that is not Hula or Latin is Bellydance... however, from a dance technical stand point I would say that if you remove the Middle Eastern music and/or the attention to the characteristics of Middle Eastern music, intent and emphasis - then you have bare technique that could be used for any purpose.

5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?
As I mentioned above - I separate between these in order to give each of them their rightful place on the dance map. I am not saying there is no relation between the various "branches" I mention, but I divide them into the branches to let each of the style categories space to develop and have their own subcategories.

6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?In my humble opinion many dancers seem to find or seek a validity by claiming Middle Eastern dance or decent to their dance, however, what they do may not be visibly linked (to a dancer's eyes or even GP's eyes). I find that each defined and developed style has it's own characteristics and strengths and therefore not only should have, but also deserves, their own space to bloom and develop freely without having to answer to other styles. (Egyptian Raqs Sharki "VS" Urban Tribal...no comparison...).

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Wow, only five responses in Five days? How long are we going to do this before beginning discussion?

I know, I was hoping for our fellow Bhuzzers to show more love in this thread, but I guess not. So, lets not wait, hit it Angela - you start off the discussion :)

Originally Posted by david

I know, I was hoping for our fellow Bhuzzers to show more love in this thread, but I guess not. So, lets not wait, hit it Angela - you start off the discussion :)

Haha! I knew you were evil... Okay, let me read over all the responses then I'll post. Right now its bed time so I'll do it in the morning. I need something to keep my mind of smoking.

*finally gets time for this*

1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?

Shortest possible answer, yes.

2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?

"Should" we? Perhaps not. DO we? Yes.

3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?

As dance ethnographers like Deirdre Sklar have pointed out, you cannot separate the dance from the culture. Sklar reminds anthropologists to think about the actual movements rather than what they might *mean*, but as dancers we already do that. We are all about the dance movements! We're less likely to consider culture. BUT belly dance is not only about ME culture. Belly dance needs also to be considered in terms of the culture we live in. What does BD mean to it? What role does it play? How do people see it? Why do they see it that way? AND, belly dance as performed by people in countries where it is not "normal" practice also occupy a "belly dance culture" which has its own norms and practices. All of these things need to be considered when we look at belly dance.

4. Is it possible to segregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?

No.

5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?

ALL dance is fusion. All culture is hybrid.

6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?

Well of course they are VALID. Why, I think ballet is really quite marvellous, though I prefer a lot of contemporary dance to be honest. Are these dances belly dance? No.

Originally Posted by david

I know, I was hoping for our fellow Bhuzzers to show more love in this thread, but I guess not.

To be honest? I can't squeeze off a couple of lines to answer some of these questions. I wish I could, but that's why I have a whole blog for such musings, man. :)

Originally Posted by asim1

To be honest? I can't squeeze off a couple of lines to answer some of these questions. I wish I could, but that's why I have a whole blog for such musings, man. :)

Ok, I'm going to be silly... *runs over and squeezes Asim1 in an attempt to assist with squeezing out a couple of lines to answer the questions* Give it a shot :) I'm sure your blog has more in-depth answers, but it'd be great to have your input on this here too.

Hi David..not posting..but reading...and sending love.

Part one

I went back through your questions and this time I applied a different dance form to the same questions. I replaced Belly Dance with the history Ballet. After considering all things I believe Belly Dance is going through the same transition as Ballet. Each country changes it to fit its own culture.

As a ballet student here in America we were not really taught the history of ballet. We were simply taught the dance, and on occasion we would have workshops with some well known dancers. I believe if you were to ask the origins of ballet that only a few ballet dancers would know that Ballet actually began in Italy. It then moved to France when Catherine de Medicis, became the Queen of France. From there it was developed into a full dance form in France. From France it spread out to other nations.

Today in ballet, I do not here anyone giving a cry out and declaring to respect ballets origin from Italy. So why do we feel the need to do this with belly dance? I feel if you were to go to Greece which is not the Middle East you would find dancers there who do not care where it came from. It has been a part of Greek culture for so many years that they consider it their own style with their own music.

Some of the questions you asked on culture kind of confused me cause they did not specifically state who's culture. Especially question number 4. Is it possible to segregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with? This I found to be tricky cause there are many connotations from different cultural aspects. American aspect, Middle Eastern aspect and so forth.

What came to my mind was the American one or it may not be American at all but a transplant from Europe. The connotation that belly dance = stripper. As I thought about it, I cannot recall in my four years of involvement running into anyone who considered belly dancing as stripper. I'm beginning to believe that this is actually a myth carried on by dancers. That is their fear, but I have not directly experienced it.

So Angela, what you're saying is, it shouldn't matter that BD is seen as a Middle Eastern art form or identified specifically with the ME in most people's eyes (NOT belly dancers' eyes, other people's eyes)? Everything's a free for all?

Part Two

Back to the question can you separate the technique and artistic expression from cultural connotations. My answer is yes, the technique can be separated. It is just a techinque that can be applied to any music genre, but it would not be belly dance. It would become that genre style. IE use belly dance technique to country music and it become a new form of country dancing. I believe it is the music that determines what style of dance it is.
I find that is the problem with fusion when you fuse belly dance technique to other forms of music IE Goth music. It is no longer belly dance but a new gothic dance form. Technique is simply technique, it is not a style it is form of techinque despite its origins.

As I've mentioned in my reply I believe American Cabaret is a valid form of belly dance cause it is frequently used with belly dance music along with costuming. Its a total package.

Fusion is different cause it trapeses on a fine line when music selection is considered. If it does not use traditional belly dance music then its not belly dance. It becomes another dance form tied to the music which it is applied. IE techno music, it then become techno dance.....

I'm done..... let the arrows fly....

Originally Posted by zumarrad

So Angela, what you're saying is, it shouldn't matter that BD is seen as a Middle Eastern art form or identified specifically with the ME in most people's eyes (NOT belly dancers' eyes, other people's eyes)? Everything's a free for all?

Haha.... Your asking this to someone who lives in a Nation where everything is a free for all? A nation that pumps out more fads and styles than Mc Donalds can produce burgers? I wish I knew what the GP thinks when they see belly dance. Do they really care that it came from the Middle East or do they just want to see a good show?

I believe when the dance form American Cabaret came into being it was an effort to make it its own form of American Belly Dance, much like ballet has transformed to American Ballet, Russian Ballet and so forth.

As an Instructor and Performer I choose to recognize our Middle Eastern roots. I choose to adhere to some basic principles of music selection, Middle eastern musicality concepts and costuming to present an American Cabaret performance. I see nothing wrong with Americanizing this dance form, as my Instructor believes it like all other dance forms need to evolve.

I also choose to present middle eastern dance to the best of my ability from what I've learned from my Egyptian instructors. Occasionally I just do a strictly Egyptian performance to classical Egyptian music.

Did that answer your question?.w.:

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Part Two

Back to the question can you separate the technique and artistic expression from cultural connotations. My answer is yes, the technique can be separated. It is just a techinque that can be applied to any music genre, but it would not be belly dance.
-snip-
Fusion is different cause it trapeses on a fine line when music selection is considered. If it does not use traditional belly dance music then its not belly dance. It becomes another dance form tied to the music which it is applied. IE techno music, it then become techno dance.....

So...Ballet dancing to rock music isn't ballet? ..g.:

If you saw a ballet dancer pirouetting to Led Zepplin, wouldn't you say, "oh, the ballet dancer is using odd music" but you'd still say it's a ballet dancer, wouldn't you?

(most of the general public probably doesn't know the difference between lyrical, modern, and other "ballet" type forms - I don't either, so sorry if my analogy doesn't quite work terminology-wise)

Based on your own previous post,

Today in ballet, I do not here anyone giving a cry out and declaring to respect ballets origin from Italy. So why do we feel the need to do this with belly dance? I feel if you were to go to Greece which is not the Middle East you would find dancers there who do not care where it came from. It has been a part of Greek culture for so many years that they consider it their own style with their own music.

Why can't belly dancers use different music without being called out on it?

Why can't I just dance? I don't claim to represent any culture at all, unless I aim to specifically in a piece.

First of all I would have to know if it were a ballet dancer. pirouetting is not strictly a ballet movement. I would not assume that a dancer dancing to rock roll is doing ballet based on the pirouetting. It could be a jazz dancer pirouetting. Again the dance movement does not define the dance, rather the music does.

I believe when the dance form American Cabaret came into being it was an effort to make it its own form of American Belly Dance, much like ballet has transformed to American Ballet, Russian Ballet and so forth.

Well, no, not at first. Not at all. The first American Cabaret dancers were North American (usually) white women who were employed to belly dance in Arabic nightclubs, in order to give the nightclubs the appropriate Middle Eastern flavour. In fact, if you skim through some of the North Beach memoirs on Gilded Serpent, you'll find accounts of dancers who were *actively required to pretend to be ME as part of their job*. That is because their job was, in part, to be exotic.

Cory Zamora here is one of the younger dancers of that generation and what she does is unequivocably and undeniably old school American Cabaret dance. She will tell you that she is doing what she was taught by ME people.

Did ME dance and music change in the mid-20th century US environment? Yes. Was it a deliberate attempt to be more American? No.

Why can't I just dance? I don't claim to represent any culture at all, unless I aim to specifically in a piece.

You can dance if you want to. You can do anything you like. But if you call it belly dance then it is profoundly attached to ideas of the ME. The answer is really, really REALLY easy. Do whatever you want. Call it fusion or contemporary dance or something else.

As Angela points out, movements alone don't define a dance. You can circle your hips or raise your arm or put one foot in front of another in many many dances. What makes the dance "belly dance" or "ballet" or "hip hop" or "hula" is the cultural context, and that includes music a lot of the time.

Nobody says you can't dance. The only thing I personally dislike is people doing a few torso articulations to some music that is not ME music, saying they're not claiming to represent ME dance at all, but still insisting on calling it belly dance. Why? Why do these people who hate having to put one toe in the ME when they dance still demand that everyone call them belly dancers?

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Well, no, not at first. Not at all. The first American Cabaret dancers were North American (usually) white women who were employed to belly dance in Arabic nightclubs, in order to give the nightclubs the appropriate Middle Eastern flavour. In fact, if you skim through some of the North Beach memoirs on Gilded Serpent, you'll find accounts of dancers who were *actively required to pretend to be ME as part of their job*. That is because their job was, in part, to be exotic.

Cory Zamora here is one of the younger dancers of that generation and what she does is unequivocably and undeniably old school American Cabaret dance. She will tell you that she is doing what she was taught by ME people.

Did ME dance and music change in the mid-20th century US environment? Yes. Was it a deliberate attempt to be more American? No.

I can concede to your point, that in the beginning it was not its original intention, but I do feel that there is that desire now among dancers to Americanize it. Though I cannot speak for all, there are those of us who desire to make our own American version of it and for some we use the principles of its original night club form.....

For certain there is desire now and there has been for some time. Masha Archer is on record as saying she felt ME people were not fit custodians of the dance and that the appropriative pick-and-mix approach she favoured was part of the American tradition of taking liberties with 'authenticity' and 'origins'.

Even if you didn't want to make an American version of it, you'd still make an American version of it because you're American. Same goes for any country/culture. America, though, doesn't exist in a vacuum and it's touched by other cultures just the same as it touches others. What *is* American culture anyway? (And don't say "melting pot" because whoo hoo, same in every country, nothing unique there.) What do you do that *nobody else* does? I bet you cannot define American culture, while at the same time you know that there *is* one. It's the same in other cultures. No culture exists alone and never has. Concepts of self only exist in relation to concepts of other.

The question I keep asking is, why belly dance? Why do people in cultures where BD is not normative belly dance? What attracts us? What is so special about it? What does it give us that our own culture does not?

Originally Posted by zumarrad

What *is* American culture anyway?

Originally Posted by zumarrad

...-snip-...American tradition of taking liberties with 'authenticity' and 'origins'.

I think that's part of our American culture, though we are certainly not alone in it. ..g.:

Originally Posted by zumarrad

The question I keep asking is, why belly dance? Why do people in cultures where BD is not normative belly dance? What attracts us? What is so special about it? What does it give us that our own culture does not?

It is a dance form that is accessible for all body types and performance locations (stage, restaurant, living room, auditorium, etc) because it evolved from social dances. It has connotations of "the exotic" and "sexy/sensual". You get to play dress up. You learn to manipulate muscles you didn't know could be manipulated.

Quite simply, it allows you to feel different from your everyday self, whether you perform with it or not.

I think the closest thing Americans have to compare with in terms of accessibility is line dancing, except bellydance allows for more individual solo expression.

You asked it, but didn't answer - what drew you in?

You asked it, but didn't answer - what drew you in?

All the things you said. Over time that has changed.

Look, I'm not holding myself up as some kind of superior model. I am asking these questions because I genuinely want to know, and because they are things that concern me. I get the impression some of you here feel personally attacked if anyone questions your involvement in BD. Why is that? If you feel it is entirely yours for the using, why are you defensive?

I never felt it was entirely mine for the using. It's not what I was taught. Nonetheless I've felt defensive even against my own questions. It's been pointed out to me that the belief my friends and I have had, that there isn't really any dancing available to us in our culture, is simply not true. There is lots of social dance that people like me could do. Strangely the dances we are drawn to are the dances of "other" cultures - BD, Latin.

Again, I can't understand why, once people have been involved in it for a while, they want to take the techniques and feelings attached and put it into other contexts, but insist point blank that they have a *right* to call what they are doing belly dance and to present it as such. IF you are performing a dance then you are performing it and your body is viewed and it is representative, of a whole bunch of things. You have NO CONTROL over this. None. I wonder sometimes if these people call their fusions BD because they lack confidence in being accepted as anything else? They feel safest in the confines of the BD community?

I give mad props to the people who have taken BD in their own direction and taken the term "belly dance" out of their descriptions.

Hey, I'm not personally offended, I just noticed you asked a question and didn't answer it for yourself.

The term "bellydance" - that was a name bequeathed upon the dance by the West ("danse du ventre"), to titillate and invoke the "oh my goodness how scandalous" reactions, yes?

If Bellydance is only dances of the Middle East - where does Greek style fit in? Greece is not Middle Eastern, it's Mediterranean.

If what you do is raqs sharqi or raqs beledi, why do you call it bellydance when it already has its own name?

I'm more annoyed at having to define what it is when it could be different from day to day and eventually the labels just become silly (see the American Cabaret name thread for some funny examples). I call what I do Bellydance because it is what I have been taught and I like to play with what I know. What else am I gonna call it? Amatuer-hobbyist-sometimes homegrown tribal-sometimes cabaret style-with occasional moves from other countries thrown in for good measure?

Come on.

It's like arguing Creationism versus Evolution. Neither side will give in, and those of us who kinda like to blend things, or prefer Pastafarianism, are left to watch and comment on both.