Thread: Flashy vs. Subtle Bellydance Styles??

I'm really curious to see what the general opinion is on flashy, boom-boom bellydance (like Saida) versus the more subtle style (like classical Egyptian). This not to say that the flashy style lacks technique, its just more outwards as opposed to inwards. I've found that audiences really like the wow-factor of the flashy style, but there's something so quintessentially timeless about a more subtle style. Thoughts???

Diversity is good. If a dancer has both, more power to him/her. Everyone has a unique style to offer, however, so there is room for both.

I think it is just a matter of personal taste. I prefer a more subtle style, but I can still acknowledge that someone of a different style is a good dancer. I know people who are bored to tears by Egyptian style and while I don't understand that mindset, I can respect it.

Originally Posted by Azhia

Diversity is good. If a dancer has both, more power to him/her. Everyone has a unique style to offer, however, so there is room for both.

Yes, it's hard for a dancer to master both, but sometimes certain music calls for one or the other (or both within the same song). I prefer the softer style and still have a lot of work to do to get my flash on, but I appreciate those that can put genuine energy into it without overdancing.

I think it's important for a dancer to aspire to add as much variation and options to their work.... various expressions, various stage personalities, various intent of movement, various energy, etc.... A dancer reflects the music and needs to be able to reflect the subtleties as well as the main pulse of the music.

I think where the difference happens is when you relate this to each individual dancer's perception of subtle and impacting movement....I usually refer my students to understanding what the audience will see and whether that's the message the dancer is intending to send across or not... to me, dance is a visual art form. The inwards technique adds a flavor to a dancer's movements just like an outwards technique - they just fulfill different purposes and achieve different results.

Another thing that often lays the ground work for a dancer's way of expressing him/herself is their cultural heritage and their personality.

I personally dont define Saida as Egyptian style - I define her as Lebanese style with some latin and ballet flavor.

I do my best to understand the difference in intent and energy use in different styles and regard them separately. It's impossible to compare Turkish, Egyptian, American Cabaret, ATS, ATF and Lebanese without aknowledging how dancers of each style fulfill (or do not fulfill) the critereas of the style they represent...

DaVid

I think a combination of external and internal is key to a good show/performance. I let the music dictate the type of emotion/energy I use. I think a varied performance is good at capturing the audience and bringing them in, they wait to see what you will do next. I can appreciate a subtle/internal performance and an in your face/external performance too but changing levels adds dimension that makes me happy!

Originally Posted by stkesler

I'm really curious to see what the general opinion is on flashy, boom-boom bellydance (like Saida) versus the more subtle style (like classical Egyptian). This not to say that the flashy style lacks technique, its just more outwards as opposed to inwards. I've found that audiences really like the wow-factor of the flashy style, but there's something so quintessentially timeless about a more subtle style. Thoughts???

I think that it is up to the dancer to know and read the audience. Not all audiences like the big flashy style, nor is it appropriate for every venue. Busting out huge and flashy moves in a small, intimate restaurant or cabaret venue doesn't always work, nor does beeing subtle and "internal" always work on a big stage.

I agree too that variation in energy is what makes a performance dynamic - I don't think that needs to be style-specific.

I agree with being able to adapt...if someone is dancing big in a quiet, introspective part of a song I'm really turned off. Likewise, if there's a huge booming entrance, the dancer needs to match it. I guess match the energy of the music you're dancing to.

In general, however, I prefer more tight, muscle-driven movements over giant boom-boom moves. I find it more impressive. This is a personal preference, of course.

I also find that some of those dancers that do big movements are throwing them in positions that can injure them, especially by arching the lower back. I've turned youtube videos off because it's so distracting; I call it the Shakira syndrome b/c I see her do it ALL THE TIME.

I think that your concepts of subtle vs flashy can change over time, as well. If you are exposed to a lot of Egyptian dance, especially the modern stuff, someone who "isn't doing very much" is making *you* the educated acculturated viewer go "omg she is layering that and that and OMG how and OMG I wish I could learn to do - oh, now she is doing something else, damn, keep doing that other thing so I can break it down in my mind. Gasp! Look at that!"

I think I also tend to dislike *some* flashy movements because I know I can't do them and don't want to put myself into a position where I feel I have to try. My teacher *never* did Turkish drops because she (and others) felt they were simply too dangerous, and she never taught them either. Now Turkish drops have come back into vogue, I do like to watch people do them but sometimes wish that I could do them so people would realise that they are not solely a tribal move (since the only people round here who do them are tribal dancers). But it's a toss-up between proving a point and my back, and my back wins. I want to be able to walk and dance till I die!

Originally Posted by elljay

I think that it is up to the dancer to know and read the audience. Not all audiences like the big flashy style, nor is it appropriate for every venue. Busting out huge and flashy moves in a small, intimate restaurant or cabaret venue doesn't always work, nor does beeing subtle and "internal" always work on a big stage.

I agree too that variation in energy is what makes a performance dynamic - I don't think that needs to be style-specific.

I can't agree more.

I like what I can see -- big and flashy on a distant stage; more internal and subtle if you're dancing right next to me. If I can see the whites of your eyes, I want to see more internal and subtle movement.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

My teacher *never* did Turkish drops because she (and others) felt they were simply too dangerous, and she never taught them either. Now Turkish drops have come back into vogue.
I want to be able to walk and dance till I die!

Absolutely agree with Zumarrad. I can name four dancers who had knee surgery due to Turkish drops. Three no longer dance. They should be forever taboo.

For a large stage I enjoy larger movements, with the occasional flash of a unique move. Big movements in restaurants tend to make patrons nervous. Subtle & approachable is my preference. Allowing the fringe to do the work for me

Originally Posted by aziyade

I can't agree more.

I like what I can see -- big and flashy on a distant stage; more internal and subtle if you're dancing right next to me. If I can see the whites of your eyes, I want to see more internal and subtle movement.

This really sums it up.

I think I'm numb to the concept of flashy. I never considered Saida to be flashy. So for my brain to conceptualize, flashy means big? Subtle means small?

Likewise, if there's a huge booming entrance, the dancer needs to match it. I guess match the energy of the music you're dancing to.

I think there's a difference between energy and flashy moves though. You can have a classic malfuf entrance with strings shrieking away dramatically and all you actually need to do is chassee on in. Yes, you're going to want to carry the power and drama of the intro in your body - strong arms, burning in the chest - but in terms of the actual movement, total simplicity can work just as well as hurtling out there with elaborate spins and hardass layers.

Some dancers can be complex and WOW on everything and not be tiring - Randa for instance - but in other cases you can be very tired before the dancer has even started to dance.

Originally Posted by Safiyah

I also find that some of those dancers that do big movements are throwing them in positions that can injure them, especially by arching the lower back. I've turned youtube videos off because it's so distracting; I call it the Shakira syndrome b/c I see her do it ALL THE TIME.

SO TRUE!! How can they do that without hurting themselves? I've found that if you build enough back muscle, you can do a controlled, standing back-bend without putting too much pressure on your lower back. But the quick ones just look too painful. Maybe it has more to do with flexibility?

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

I think I'm numb to the concept of flashy. I never considered Saida to be flashy. So for my brain to conceptualize, flashy means big? Subtle means small?

Hello? I would appreciate some clarity here...

Angela - I think it's related to intent in movement, flow of energy and timing through space...but, I could be wrong.

When I say "flashy" like Saida, I'm referring to her dramatic back-bends, large arm movements, sharp head-tosses, toe-to-head body rolls, quick turns, complex footwork, etc. So it's not necessarily confined to "big" movements . . . its really hard to define b/c both styles can be full of energy and even "subtle" dance styles have the occasional sharp accent. I'm so bad at this . . . you should probably just assume big vs. small for simplicity's sake. :) Sorry for the long, drawn-out response!!

Originally Posted by david

Angela - I think it's related to intent in movement, flow of energy and timing through space...but, I could be wrong.

Intent and energy most definitely! That's a great way to put it. What is "timing through space?"

Originally Posted by stkesler

Intent and energy most definitely! That's a great way to put it. What is "timing through space?"

ooh, sorry, I nerded out for a second there... timing through space would refer to how fast a body part travels in space (speed)...now imagine all bellydancers flinging their various bodyparts out in space... (man sometimes I'm so dorky)....

Speed...

Originally Posted by david

ooh, sorry, I nerded out for a second there... timing through space would refer to how fast a body part travels in space (speed)...now imagine all bellydancers flinging their various bodyparts out in space... (man sometimes I'm so dorky)....

Speed...

..l;,..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by Azhia

Diversity is good. If a dancer has both, more power to him/her. Everyone has a unique style to offer, however, so there is room for both.

these were basically my thoughts, i really do like Saida but to me she lacks something and has something else that i don't find as necessary. i'd say that i think randa kamel has a bit of both, and i really like her. so does munique neith, and i'm huge fan on that end too

I think 'subtle' means what that word always means -- delicate. Nuanced. A pelvic lock on an accent would be subtle. A flick of the wrist. A tiny hip drop. Soheir Zaki's dancing is subtle. So is Tahia Carioka's. 'subtle' dancing makes you go 'ooooooohhhh'

Flashy means... big, dramatic moves. Turkish drops are flashy. Some spins. Much floorwork. Most hair tossing. Dramatic arm movements.

To me, subtle dancing is all about the music. Flashy dancing is all about getting the audience to see and pay attention to the dancer.

Subtle dancing done poorly runs the risk of being 'boring.' Flashy dancing done poorly runs the risk of injuring the dancer and/or looking awkward.

i can appreciate subtle but am drawn to flashy :)

I think it is so important to dance to your crowd. If I am dancing for an "All American Elk's Lodge Uncle Fred's 60'th Birthday" I sure as heck am not going to choose classical Egyptian across the board. Im going to throw in some big fat drama as well as nuanced control (hopefully)! Uncle Fred tends to doze off.

If I am dancing for dancers or up close then I feel free to go a little more subtle.

I always teach my students to adapt their shows to their crowd and don't always make your performance a visual lecture on culture. Sometimes our main goal is to be entertaining. If we, as artists, make it our goal to be adaptable then we are more well rounded.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I think 'subtle' means what that word always means -- delicate. Nuanced. A pelvic lock on an accent would be subtle. A flick of the wrist. A tiny hip drop. Soheir Zaki's dancing is subtle. So is Tahia Carioka's. 'subtle' dancing makes you go 'ooooooohhhh'

Flashy means... big, dramatic moves. Turkish drops are flashy. Some spins. Much floorwork. Most hair tossing. Dramatic arm movements.

To me, subtle dancing is all about the music. Flashy dancing is all about getting the audience to see and pay attention to the dancer.

Subtle dancing done poorly runs the risk of being 'boring.' Flashy dancing done poorly runs the risk of injuring the dancer and/or looking awkward.

I don't know if this can be broken down to just the size or type the size or type of movement. I do agree with the definitions of flashy and subtle in terms of energy but I've seen many dancers that do tons of tiny little locks and small movements on every little accent and even though they are not "big dramatic moves" it still seems very technical and "look what I can do" On the other hand it is possible for a dancer to use the dramatic movements you described and still be all about the music. Its just a different way of moving.

Originally Posted by mariyah13

I don't know if this can be broken down to just the size or type the size or type of movement. I do agree with the definitions of flashy and subtle in terms of energy but I've seen many dancers that do tons of tiny little locks and small movements on every little accent and even though they are not "big dramatic moves" it still seems very technical and "look what I can do" On the other hand it is possible for a dancer to use the dramatic movements you described and still be all about the music. Its just a different way of moving.

Agreed.

I also agree with Samira and earlier posters that it's not a judgement call. Sometimes we talk like flash is for those who aren't sophisticated enough to appreciate subtlety. I think flash can be fun, for anyone.

I think a dancer should have both elements in her dance so she can shift to what the music is doing.

Originally Posted by Aradia

I think a dancer should have both elements in her dance so she can shift to what the music is doing.

Aradia, that's one of the things I really admired in your dancing when I saw you at Marrakech last spring--you had an excellent balance in your dancing I found it inspirational, to be honest

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

Aradia, that's one of the things I really admired in your dancing when I saw you at Marrakech last spring--you had an excellent balance in your dancing I found it inspirational, to be honest

Awww, thank you, that made my day!!