Thread: New Name for "American Cabaret" -- and others???

Okay, I was just walking through my office when I spied a piece of paper on which was the skeleton of a choreo I had gotten at a workshop with Jillina. The heading, in great big letters, was

"ORIENTAL FUSION"

Right then and there I thought, "That's what I do!"

I come from an American Cabaret/Vintage Orientale/Old Style Arabic/pick-your-favorite-moniker background, but I also dabble in a (very) Americanized Egyptian style.

Both of those dance styles are very much a "fusion" in that the dance sets of the former include music from such diverse places as Greece, Turkey, Armenia, Persia, Lebanon, Egypt, etc., and the dance sets of the latter feature Egyptian music only but are not truly "classical" in dance style.

Soooo . . . I've decided I like "Orientale Fusion" (with an "e" in "oriental") as a broad descriptor, with a further breakdown into "music from . . . " or "within the Egyptian style" depending upon what I'm doing.

Or should I stick with "Pan Arabic style" (unless I'm doing something Egypytian-y) because "fusion" has too many connotations with "tribal" ?????

Weigh in here, fellow Bhuzzers!"

Deborah

I'm sticking with American Mongrel style. .

{{{HUGS}}}

To me, "fusion" has too many tribal associations. Although vintage American style was the first fusion, as you point out.

I like Anaheed's name for it, American Eclectic Style. :)

Originally Posted by nasila

I like Anaheed's name for it, American Eclectic Style. :)

Oh, that *is* a good one!

I don't like Orientale Fusion. The whole issue defining tribal fusion is unclear enough as is, and I believe it is better to not get into that quicksand of terminology.

I'm keeping with American Cabaret.....

I generally use Vintage Orientale.

I have a question, though. The style I do is particularly 'vintage'. However, when I read things about American Cabaret it is considered the same as Vintage Orientale style. I was under the impression that there was a modern American Cabaret style? That is, I consider what I do to be 'vintage' American Cabaret as opposed to 'modern'. Is this correct, or does it all just fall under the American Cabaret umbrella?

Heck, maybe I'll just keep calling myself a plain ol' "belly dancer" and let folks sort it out for themselves . . .



Deborah

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I generally use Vintage Orientale.

I have a question, though. The style I do is particularly 'vintage'. However, when I read things about American Cabaret it is considered the same as Vintage Orientale style. I was under the impression that there was a modern American Cabaret style? That is, I consider what I do to be 'vintage' American Cabaret as opposed to 'modern'. Is this correct, or does it all just fall under the American Cabaret umbrella?

Ah, there in lies the conundrum. But it's alittle bit like calling everything coming out of Cairo "Egyptian" I have 4 different "Egyptian" based teachers here in LA. they are all different. They don't even agree about lifted heels on Maya's. And forward horizantal figure 8's? Don't get in the way of THAT conversation!

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I generally use Vintage Orientale.

I have a question, though. The style I do is particularly 'vintage'. However, when I read things about American Cabaret it is considered the same as Vintage Orientale style. I was under the impression that there was a modern American Cabaret style? That is, I consider what I do to be 'vintage' American Cabaret as opposed to 'modern'. Is this correct, or does it all just fall under the American Cabaret umbrella?

Yes lets subdivided into more styles.
Egyptian Accented American Cabaret Style EAACS
Lebanese Accented American Cabaret Style LAACS
Turkish Accented American Cabaret Style TAACS
Egyptian/Turkish Accented American Cabaret Style ETAACS
Greek Accented American Cabaret Style GAACS
American Tribal Accented American Cabaret Style ATAACS

Did I miss any?

Oh, my, Angela. Maybe I'll just stick with bellydancer! I think Deborah has the right idea! ..g.: Tahira - yes, I think you're right, there seems to be no set agreement. Is that why we still don't have bellydance university?

I'd wear a bellydance university sweater. Go team!

That would be so cool of a sweater.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I generally use Vintage Orientale.

I have a question, though. The style I do is particularly 'vintage'. However, when I read things about American Cabaret it is considered the same as Vintage Orientale style. I was under the impression that there was a modern American Cabaret style? That is, I consider what I do to be 'vintage' American Cabaret as opposed to 'modern'. Is this correct, or does it all just fall under the American Cabaret umbrella?

Oh, when you said before (on another thread) you did Vintage Orientale, I assumed it would be like Samia Gamal etc. and the old Egyptian black and white film dancers, or maybe even their contemporaries in Lebanon or Turkey - but you're meaning Old Style "American Cabaret", is that correct?

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

I'm sticking with American Mongrel style. .

{{{HUGS}}}

Hahaha, I like that.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Oh, when you said before (on another thread) you did Vintage Orientale, I assumed it would be like Samia Gamal etc. and the old Egyptian black and white film dancers, or maybe even their contemporaries in Lebanon or Turkey - but you're meaning Old Style "American Cabaret", is that correct?

This is a term coined (or at least made popular) by Artemis and meant to be used as a better way to say old-style American Cabaret, see the article here: Turkish Dancing

To Caroline- yes, what steffib said. I do zills, veil, and floorwork; Cory Zamora is my most recent teacher.

I personally don't like the term fusion even though the American Caberet style popular in the 1960's and 70's was a fusion of sorts. Back then we simply called it caberet or belly dancing to distinguish it from folkloric. I know Shira prefers to use the term Vintage Oriental to describe the dancing from that era in the US. I don't have a problem with that term. In a vintage oriental or old style American caberet, we could come out with a Turkish number, lapse into a Greek song, then an Armenian song, then a Lebanse song, and so on...

I do think that the American Caberet style practiced now is not the same as what Shira calls Vintage Oriental. From what I've observed, it's gotten away from the heavy ethnic music compositions and the different ethnic styles and the music has become more contemporary and "Americanized".


My earliest training was in that style with a strong Turkish influence, but because I was in Detroit, there was also a strong Egyptian/Saudi/Armenian/Lebanese influence. By the early 80's the old caberet style became more and more influenced by the Egyptians. Full circle skirts were replaced by straight hip hugging skirts. Veils and floorwork made way for canework. Barefeet replaced high heels. In the 90's, with all the religious restrictions on dancers in Egypt, the Lebanese dancers became popular. They favored high energy music and back came the high heels. As the music became faster, the taxims became shorter and shorter and so did the sets.

I have my own unique style and it is a blend of all 3. But I don't consider myself a fusion dancer, I consider myself to be a traditional belly dancer.

Angela and all - I couldn't resist! ..g.:

breacanfeile: Home: Zazzle.com Gallery

Haha! I'm working on letterman jackets.

I like your idea, but would suggest a little more flare on the type set
if you could do that I would be interested in purchasing some tank tops.

Do they offer them in different colors?

Hi -

Re incorporating the word "fusion" - I haven't been around Bhuz that long so I'm not sure how much my 2 cents is worth, but to me (and perhaps GP?), though I agree with Deborah that it's technically correct to use the word "fusion" as far as its original definition, I feel the term "fusion" has been unofficially redefined in the dance community to include, not just tribal, but a more modern, sometimes no-holds-barred/anything goes type of dance. To me there is something about the word itself, even the sound of the word (due to its most common current usages) that causes me to anticipate something less rich than an incorporation and interpretation of authentic ME stylings. I would be afraid using the term "fusion" might invite more avant-garde moves into the mix and possibly dilute a significant percentage of the classic from the "American Classic/Vintage Cabaret" (or whatever name is best) style. Though it might stir more interest in (often) younger folks who seem to have a fondness for that word . . .

-Devora

Originally Posted by Devora

Hi -

Re incorporating the word "fusion" - I haven't been around Bhuz that long so I'm not sure how much my 2 cents is worth, but to me (and perhaps GP?), though I agree with Deborah that it's technically correct to use the word "fusion" as far as its original definition, I feel the term "fusion" has been unofficially redefined in the dance community to include, not just tribal, but a more modern, sometimes no-holds-barred/anything goes type of dance. To me there is something about the word itself, even the sound of the word (due to its most common current usages) that causes me to anticipate something less rich than an incorporation and interpretation of authentic ME stylings. I would be afraid using the term "fusion" might invite more avant-garde moves into the mix and possibly dilute a significant percentage of the classic from the "American Classic/Vintage Cabaret" (or whatever name is best) style. Though it might stir more interest in (often) younger folks who seem to have a fondness for that word . . .

-Devora

ME TOO!!! Very well said.

When I think of artistic "fusion" I think of the fusion of concepts. I'm not really sure then that I consider American Oriental dance to be "fusion." I realize the music is a BLENDING of different musical cultures, but they aren't REALLY fused, in my mind. It's more like the dancers danced to a compilation of Middle Eastern tunes.

By the popular definition, wouldn't that make Nutcracker a "fusion" ballet?
I have issues with that. When the Tambouritzans do a performance, is it a "fusion" performance just because they use music from many different cultures?

I don't see anything wrong with calling it American Oriental -- and save "Vintage" for the styling that includes the multi-part routine, maybe is costumed a certain way, and includes elements of the dance not always common to other styles (like cymbals, floorwork) ??

Originally Posted by norma

I personally don't like the term fusion even though the American Caberet style popular in the 1960's and 70's was a fusion of sorts. Back then we simply called it caberet or belly dancing to distinguish it from folkloric.

I do think that the American Caberet style practiced now is not the same as what Shira calls Vintage Oriental. From what I've observed, it's gotten away from the heavy ethnic music compositions and the different ethnic styles and the music has become more contemporary and "Americanized".

My earliest training was in that style with a strong Turkish influence, but because I was in Detroit, there was also a strong Egyptian/Saudi/Armenian/Lebanese influence. By the early 80's the old caberet style became more and more influenced by the Egyptians.

. . . I don't consider myself a fusion dancer, I consider myself to be a traditional belly dancer.

Precisely, Norma. I'm also on the same page as Devora and, well, everybody else so far!

Although, technically what I (and all "old style" American Cabaret dancers) do is a fusion of Orientale styles and could be called "Orientale Fusion," the word fusion itself really does conjure up certain images that do not apply to my dancing, nor to the dancing of most of the folks who do "old style" American Cabaret.

Deborah

For myself (and my regular style of dancing), I kind of like "vintage American Orientale".

Oh and to set the record straight, Shira pointed out to me that it was Artemis who coined the phrase, "Vintage Oriental". Shira prefers the term "American Classic".

Now, the Arabs always referred to it as Raks Sharqi, or caberet or oriental dancing.

I'm sticking with just traditional belly dancer.

Angela - I'm still checking it out. I was trying to find a more collegiate font. Just something I decided to try on a whim! Let me know how the letterman jackets are going; I wanted to do those too but couldn't find them.

End thread hijack.

With so many different ideas about what to call things it makes me dizzy. ..g.:

Originally Posted by nasila

I like Anaheed's name for it, American Eclectic Style. :)

That's a real good one. Or would it be too presumptive to say Arab-American Eclectic Style?

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

With so many different ideas about what to call things it makes me dizzy. ..g.:

Yes I get the feeling that we are just adding more complication. I would prefer a different direction striving for simplicity.

In my original training, American Cabaret was just simply defined by the using larger hip movements (Turkish) than the smaller movements of Egyptian style, and the greater use of Veil and Sagat. That was how it was put to me. Now it has expanded with the use of more sharper movements that can be easily seen with pops and locks plus a clearer defined technique with greater multiples of layering..w.: If that makes any sense..c::

For those who spell "Orientale" with an e on the end, do you pronounce it differently from "Oriental" without the e? Does that e change the meaning or connotation for you, or is it strictly decorative? How did it enter your personal usage?

I realize this may sound like a silly question, but I genuinely want to know. (Language geek here.)

Originally Posted by Zana

For those who spell "Orientale" with an e on the end, do you pronounce it differently from "Oriental" without the e? Does that e change the meaning or connotation for you, or is it strictly decorative? How did it enter your personal usage?

I realize this may sound like a silly question, but I genuinely want to know. (Language geek here.)

Fellow language geek.

Well, when I see "orientale," I say it in my head as "oriental" with the emphasis on the last syllable; it's kinda a silly thing with me.

When I say "orientale," unless I'm being silly out loud, I usually just say it the usual "oriental" way, with the emphasis on the third syllable.

"Orientale," strictly speaking for myself, is one way I can distinguish between middle east and far east. Plus, I just like extra letters; take the name Phoebe, for example; where's the "f" and what's that "o" doing in there??? I probably saw the "e" spelling in oriental somewhere and liked it.

And it certainly was not a silly question!

Deborah

Thank you on all counts, Deborah.

I liked your aside "...unless I'm being silly out loud...." I'm often silly out loud, intentionally or not, and I can definitely relate!