History/origin of veils in belly dance

**mathkitty** · 03-09-2009 02:47 PM

I'm going to be teaching a special session on veils in April, and would like to be able to give my students an accurate overview of the history and origins of it.

Veils are not really traditional to ME dance...My understanding is dancing with veils, the complicated full routines, wrapping and unwrapping, big spins and tricks came out of American Cabaret. Maybe some connection or origin with Ruth St. Denis and/or the Ballet Russe oriental fantasy routines--but not sure. Then multiple veils stuff is very recent, maybe 70's 80's?

While there is Egyptian veil, it developed independently from American Cabaret. It's used for a grand entrance, and then it's tossed aside. I heard that many of the "Golden Age" dancers were receiving training from someone from the Kirov Ballet, who didn't think Egyptians knew how to hold their arms right, and gave them veils to improve it. It's one of those things that could be true, but might not.

Anyway, looking to be enlightened...

**Lauren_** · 03-09-2009 03:17 PM

There's a lot more complicated veilwork in Turkish dance, which I think might have influenced the American dancers (whose dance is quite strongly based in Turkish style). The spinning and swirling is very Turkish, but I think the wrapping and unwrapping are rather American.

Yes, Egyptians are known for swishing and dropping, mostly. I've seen Fifi and others do a little more swishing before they drop, but they never seem so enthusiastic about it.

I *think* the consensus on history is that it started with the Samia Gamal, who was given a piece of fabric to carry by her ballet instructor to help with arm carriage. (someone here can name the ballet instructor, I think she was Russian?)

From there, it would have spread into Turkey (via travellers or films) where the veil took on a lot more importance as part of the flashier Turkish style. American dancers would have picked it up from some of their Turkish and Lebanese teachers, and would also have seen it in old Egyptian films. They put their own unique spin on it, of course.

**steffib** · 03-09-2009 03:39 PM

I suspect that the history of the veil in bellydance is about as easy to explain as the history of bellydance. From what I understand, there is reason to believe that women in the ME have danced with floaty pieces of fabric for centuries (if not millenia), but that doesn't mean that they performed bellydance with a veil.

**Lauren_** · 03-09-2009 03:49 PM

By the way, the Egyptians and Turks could easily have been influenced by Ruth St. Denis's work as well, I imagine, given the timing.

How recent is multiple veilwork? I'd' have guessed 90s, but it's only a guess.

**aziyade** · 03-09-2009 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I *think* the consensus on history is that it started with the Samia Gamal, who was given a piece of fabric to carry by her ballet instructor to help with arm carriage. (someone here can name the ballet instructor, I think she was Russian?).

Madam Ivanova (don't know her first name.)

Here's Rocky's article on it:
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Can't forget Loie Fuller, and her fabric dancing. That probably inspired some of the interpretive dancing of Ruth St. Denis, which probably inspired a few American dancers.

***Shira*** · 03-09-2009 07:11 PM

I'm surprised no one has already linked to Elizabeth "Artemis" Mourat's article on my web site: Oriental Dance: Veil Dancing In North Africa And The Middle East

This is an excerpt from her full-length manuscript titled "The Illusive Veil", and I find it to be excellent research.

In particular, please note that it mentions statements made by Samia Gamal and Tahia Carioca on the subject of veil usage in Egypt.

**mathkitty** · 03-09-2009 07:55 PM

Thanks for posting that article, Shira. It's very informative.

**mysterywoman** · 03-10-2009 01:33 PM

[QUOTE=aziyade;373850]Here's Rocky's article on it:
</title> <style type="text/css"> </style> <link href="../hc-css.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" /> <style type="text/css"> </style> </head> <body> <div align="center"> <table width="800" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" bordercolor="#

I think hipcircle has been hacked. When I try to follow that link, my browser gives me a warning that it is an attack site that will try to harm my computer or steal info from it. I dont recommend following this link unless we get word from someone that hte problem has been fixed.

**steffib** · 03-10-2009 01:41 PM

Link works fine for me. (Mac OSX/Safari)

**zamora** · 03-10-2009 02:20 PM

when i was dancing in clube in L.A. a musician friom a turkiah band took my veil and told/showed me what he wanted.as i have said many times, we were taught by the first imigrants who started the resturant /club scene.i do not find it american except it was in america that they taught us.

**mathkitty** · 03-10-2009 02:45 PM

Are there any good clips out there of Turkish veil dancing? I've seen the Golden Age Egyptian veil, but don't think I've seen any Turkish clips.

**Aradia** · 03-12-2009 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Lauren_

By the way, the Egyptians and Turks could easily have been influenced by Ruth St. Denis's work as well, I imagine, given the timing.

How recent is multiple veilwork? I'd' have guessed 90s, but it's only a guess.

I started doing double veil work in the early 80's, I learned 3/4 veil from Marta Schills after her return from Egypt, I think I was about 12, not long after that I started working with 2, I don't recall who else was doing double veil at the time, maybe Saqra?

**Lauren_** · 03-12-2009 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by mathkitty

Are there any good clips out there of Turkish veil dancing? I've seen the Golden Age Egyptian veil, but don't think I've seen any Turkish clips.

I posted on your spinoff thread what I could find.

Aradia -- thanks, that's good to know!

**jesennia** · 03-12-2009 11:34 PM

Artemis Mourat, this is the first article I found on veil dance ..it's found on Shira's site

http://flamencocentral.bizland.com/r...ilk_veils.html

One of the first videos I saw with double veil dancing in it (other than Loie Fuller, have you read the book about her life? It's EXCELLENT reading:)

was featuring Deann Adams, here is a link about her
DeAnn Adams passing

but I don't know if she was the first to do it

more:

Interview with Doug Adams

i thought she was beautiful and influenced my own dance style a lot

here's Aneena
Untitled Document

and my first instructor, Mahisha, taught us double veils in our advanced class
MySpace.com - Mahisha - 58 - Female - SANTA FE, New Mexico - www.myspace.com/MedicineHeart

recognize the veil?

MySpace.com - Mahisha My Photos - Photo 8 of 35

even the Sufis incorporate dancing with fabric of some type with the act of dance and spinning. it's pretty remarkable!

this is a really incredible video, it starts slowly but watch to the end..the dancer on the pedestal thing has amazing balance

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s63r-8t2ugA]YouTube - mercan dede - TRT semazen gÃ¶sterisi[/ame]

Loie Fuller can be found on youtube too

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIrnFrDXjlk&feature=PlayList&p=148AA52B67D 7A0ED&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=21]YouTube - Danse Serpentine - Loie Fuller[/ame]

**Aradia** · 03-12-2009 11:45 PM

thanks for the post Jes, I'm sure there were some dancers out of the 60's and 70's doing double veil. I know they didn't video much back then, but I couldn't begin to answer who was the first to do double veil.

***Shira*** · 03-13-2009 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by Lauren_

How recent is multiple veilwork? I'd' have guessed 90s, but it's only a guess.

At my very first Rakkasah in 1985, there were a lot of people doing double veil. So it had already been around long enough for bunches of people to learn it and incorporate it into their performances.

I was captivated by it, and still love to do it today!

**jesennia** · 03-13-2009 02:20 AM

When I was first lured into bellydance, Shira's site was the very first one I was on, I found the link to this page Belly Dancing: Making A Circle Skirt

I saw the layers of gold and green and red that Shira is wearing (and spinning) in the second photo and was HOOKED ..so Shira is the first bellydancer I 'saw' with double veils ..g.:

**zamora** · 03-13-2009 09:51 AM

what are "tricks"? dont get that ???

**jesennia** · 03-13-2009 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by zamora

what are "tricks"? dont get that ???

I think I saw that you refer to them as 'illusions'

ps i just purchased your veil dvd from ebay, Tomas is wonderful!

**Athenaserpent** · 03-22-2009 01:13 PM

Loie Fuller can be found on youtube too

are those veils or isis-wings (without pleats)??

**kulthum** · 03-25-2009 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by *Shira*

At my very first Rakkasah in 1985, there were a lot of people doing double veil.

Ditto that -- I started learning in '85 and I remember Kamaal was well-established as a double veil (and double cape?) teacher already.

**zamora** · 03-25-2009 09:36 AM

jesennia, thank you so much.we use 6 ties.3 on dvd, working on the last 3 .

**jesennia** · 03-25-2009 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by zamora

jesennia, thank you so much.we use 6 ties.3 on dvd, working on the last 3 .

I'm fixing to watch your dvd in a few minutes here as soon as the child settles into destroying something else:)

**jesennia** · 03-25-2009 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Athenaserpent

Loie Fuller can be found on youtube too

are those veils or isis-wings (without pleats)??

it's been a while since I read the book but she used yards and yards of silk and created the shapes with poles. The colored gas lamps were important to the overall effect. I believe she once danced on a mirrored floor.

Her pattern for this creation was closely guarded in fact she reportedly never let one assistant pack or see the entire outfit for her ..let me go google but I do believe it was patented. And as you can imagine there were many copycats in her time.

here's a useful resource with more links, again I loved the book if you have interest, I believe the link to the book is on that page as well...probably its available thru amazon

Loie Fuller, First Dance Technologist -- Great Dance Weblog

**jesennia** · 03-25-2009 08:28 PM

more info about the patent on the bottom..it was sort of like a dress but lots of silk to swirl around

Untitled Document

she definitely influenced my work as dyeing double half circle silk veils and anything big and floaty :)

**ninaamaya** · 04-27-2011 12:30 PM

Here's Tulay in the 70's, for your Turkish dancer:

She is wrapped in the "vintage warp" I learned in the 90s.

It may disappear, but here is an ancient maenad: 4. Jahrhundert v.Chr - Dancing Maenad / Greek vase-painting - Fine Arts Reproduction

**zamora** · 04-27-2011 05:47 PM

wrapping and un wrapping was stressed to us by Armenian, Persian and Lebanese musicians, restaurant owners. in the early days when all was Arab, we got 2 chifti's, 1 for veil, one for floor. when the new immigrants came, they brought rumba/bolero songs they wanted the veil danced to those songs. turkish songs were then used as well in some venues. we are allowed to use a turkish melody only here..it can have no vocal unless my clients are from there and request it. armenians that grew up more turkish instead of russian request these songs.

**zamora** · 04-27-2011 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by jesennia

I'm fixing to watch your dvd in a few minutes here as soon as the child settles into destroying something else:)

how did i miss this???

**Elibelinde** · 04-27-2011 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Lauren_

By the way, the Egyptians and Turks could easily have been influenced by Ruth St. Denis's work as well, I imagine, given the timing.

How recent is multiple veilwork? I'd' have guessed 90s, but it's only a guess.

I worked with double veils in the 1970's.

This is because I didn't like my nose. So, I wore a veil over my face, full length veil pinned to my hair, and another draped in the wrap it and stuff it into your hip style.

I figured, by the time I took off the face veil people would be into my dance and they wouldn't notice the schnoz.

I did use them both separately and together and later in the '80's sometimes used a big circular veil along with a rectangular one for contrast, circular one was black and the rectangular one was a white sequined sari.

This is sort of invented on the spot because I needed two numbers for a performance, so I winged it. So to speak.

**Andrea Deagon** · 05-30-2011 12:19 AM

Double veil was very popular when I began dancing circa 1975. I suspect it was one of the additions to the dance that happened when belly dance caught on outside of ethnic communities in the early 1970's, in the mainstream population, as recreation. It was something that could impress people unfamiliar with belly dance. I recall it usually being very flashy and American in aesthetic. Since there was no video easily available then, a lot of things like this spread in workshops or other casual contacts, with everyone adding a little. But it does amaze me when I see exactly the same thing today as 35 years ago.

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