Thread: American Cabaret vs. Turkish from the same era

I've always been taught that American Cabaret was its own style, with some Turkish elements like veilwork and zills. The only Turkish dancers I'd seen much of were modern ones, like Didem or Asena, or Roman dancers, who I knew were different.

But more and more, now that I have access to clips on youtube of the 'old-school' Turkish dancers, I don't see one. single. difference. between the two.

OK, maybe sword and snakes.

Otherwise they seem the same.

If no one had TOLD me this was a Turkish dancer, I would have totally pegged her as American Cabaret:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKu2dxgkpE]YouTube - Tulay Karaca with live Turkish music,Turkish Belly Dancer[/ame]

And how about Princess Banu:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_CXfgEvGjY"]YouTube - Princess Banu Oryantal Belly Dance[/ame]

And Nesrin Topkapi
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vFGh83m4r0]YouTube - Nesrin Topkapı - (1981/82 Yılbaşı)[/ame]

And yet none of this looks much like what I've been taught as Turkish style in the US, which has been anything from Romani to 9/8 'karsilama' to skirt dancing.

Can we discuss the similaries/differences? Can someone help me move my cheese? ..g.:

Thanks for starting this! This is what I was struck with the other day after seeing the Tulay and Nesrin clips. What I've been taught as "Turkish" was 9/8 and Rom (like Elizabeth Strong) -- those are not mutually exclusive.

What a good thread! Thank you, Lauren.
When I first saw Princess Banu, I thought she was american... And, yes, Tulay Karaca looks american too...
But Nesrin has always been my favourite ,r:;

My current thesis:

American dancers learned from a lot of Turkish dancers/musicians, but in neighborhoods, not workshops, so the instructors weren't really named.

Years later, some American dancers went to work in Cairo and thought 'what the hey? This isn't what I learned. Where's the veil? Where's the zills? What are they doing with those canes?' and the new, 'correct' style was brought back from Egypt.

American Cabaret was dismissed as a 'fantasy' style, inauthentic, Hollywood inspired.

American Cabaret dancers objected, saying 'no, we learned from immigrants, our dancing is authentic' (see Cory, I've been listening!!)

Everyone patted them on the head -- silly, clueless American housewives, how embarrasing - and went off to differentiate Egyptian style into Golden Era, Modern Cairo, Middle Epoch, whatever....

Meanwhile, dance in Turkey changed, to the current style of Asena and Didem. So the American Cabaret dancers didn't know where to look for a model. Teachers of Turkish Romani and folkloric styles are scattered here and there, but those are very different from the clips above, of course.

Am I getting it?

We're constantly looking for a new name for American Cabaret (let's not go into why here, there are lots of threads) -- maybe we should just call it Golden Era Turkish?

Yes... Good point of view...

I could be TOTALLY wrong but I think Turkish Oriental and American Cabaret were really one in the same up through the sixties, seventies and SOME part of the eighties until the music changed and electronic music was introduced and the drum solo became the DOMINANT part of the music. I think that's when they went their own ways, respectivly.

There is a difference between Tulay and Didem in Turkish dancing. I think the dance progressed with the change in music.

But, aren't there are few dancers who have travelled to study Turkish oriental in Turkey, too? I am thinking of Eva Cernik and Artemis, who teach Turkish oriental.

Those who have studied with them can probably chime in?

I know my original teacher, who I would call American Cabaret, has always self-identified as a Turkish style dancer. She was not even familiar with the term American Cabaret when I asked her about it.

ok, the 9/8 ewe were taught to close a set with is very tame with the hand signals compared to the rom.
i grew up with romani.what they do as rom, is regional, of that tribe. elements of this are put in the caberet routene.i remember the first time i danced for some who actually knew what i was eluding to with the hands.it was wonderful.
...michelle75.you are partly right.in fresno, we still respect the old school set order, the "routene" BUT we do it with more modern music.i love dancing to hakim and saad.there are 2 hakim songs good for veil.
BUT YOU BROUGHT UP SOMETHING ELSE
the damn solos! YES, there was a time , most likely due to working with live music, that there were OTHER solos.
geeeee, the soul experiance of a solo horn , clairnet, mizmar wailing over you while on the floor.
a true honor is when the musician gets up, walks over and plays over you!
i follow solo taxim on the oud when i work with richard hagopian.
the drum was just THE LAST solo, the ulitmate solo...but not the only~!

maybe we should just call it Golden Era Turkish?
*********** you really cant, because a true caberet is made up of all the silk road dances, not just turkish, thats what caberet is! a little of everything...as added to ones dance on the silk road.

GREAT clips, GREAT discussion. I know nothing, but will be tuning in to learn!

I don't think you can really say Didem is typical of Turkish, because has so many different ways of performing and dances to so many different kinds of music, so she's not really representative of a particular and unique Turkish style -- just like Amani is not usually considered representative of Lebanese style.

Ahmet Luleci lamented that Turkish bellydancers haven't been using real Turkish music since the 90s. They're using Egyptian music now. (Egyptian style is the rage all over, I guess.)

Lauren, I learned 9/8 and Rom stuff from Artemis too, although it was my understanding that the American Cabaret dancer did 9/8 and Rom gestures as only one part of the show. Ozel brought a little of Turkish folk dancing into some belly dance songs that I now recognize as being Turkish or Armenian folk songs. There's a little heel dig and kick step that she actually teaches on her video that I see in quite a bit of Turkish folk -- but I can't tell you which region in particular, sorry!

It was also pointed out to me that there were a lot of "Turkish bellydance" videos available that were not REALLY supposed to be belly dance. I was told they were actually intended to be sort of soft-core porn -- which would explain some of the "wardrobe malfunctions" and lack of costuming that so horrified me as a baby dancer. I don't know if this is a fact, but it does help make sense of these otherwise pretty awful videos. :)

Lauren -- you're the clip queen: Can you post a clip of something close to what you've been taught was Turkish style?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

We're constantly looking for a new name for American Cabaret (let's not go into why here, there are lots of threads) -- maybe we should just call it Golden Era Turkish?

But doesn't this ignore that American dance was also influenced by Lebanese and Greek immigrants, since they were often club owners, musicians, and patrons of dance in the old days?

On a lighter note, am I the only one who got to the 2:55 mark on the Nesrin clip and suddenly thought of Rachel Dratch?

http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/movie/...ider/nbc_2.jpg

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

But doesn't this ignore that American dance was also influenced by Lebanese and Greek immigrants, since they were often club owners, musicians, and patrons of dance in the old days?

I don't know -- are there visible differences between American Cabaret and this Turkish Golden Era dance style that we can attribute to those influnces?

I used to assume so, but I'm not seeing it at the moment. That's what I'm really asking help with in this thread --

What are the differences between American Cabaret and the Turkish clips I posted?

deleted -- off topic

Aziyade -- I haven't really been taught much Turkish style, so I can't answer. Just one Rania workshop eons ago and Artemis's DVD, which was all 9/8.

That's what I'm trying to say, and in my attempt to be brief, I may have been confusing earlier. I've been taught some Turkish Romani, and some 9/8s. I *know* there's an Oryental style different from Romani, and I *know* 9/8s are only one thing that happens in Turkish style, like Saidi in Egyptian.

But Didem was the only Turkish dancer I ever really saw. Eva Cernik and Artemis, but again, their style is different from the clips above.

There's this from Sarah Skinner:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0xDGf8jzto]YouTube - DVD "I love Turkish Bellydance!" :: WorldDanceNewYork.com :: Free Shipping Worldwide![/ame]

but it doesn't look as much like the clips above as Cory Zamora does, or Anaheed, or any of the other dancers I've been taught were American Cabaret.

I think this is what Artemis was trying to say in her article, but I needed video to 'get it.'

I think I'm the only person on the planet who didn't learn "skirt dancing" as Turkish style belly dance.

Sarah's dvd performances didn't look remotely like anything I'd been taught was Turkish style.

???

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I don't know -- are there visible differences between American Cabaret and this Turkish Golden Era dance style that we can attribute to those influnces?

I used to assume so, but I'm not seeing it at the moment. That's what I'm really asking help with in this thread --

What are the differences between American Cabaret and the Turkish clips I posted?

I'm not an expert on the ethnic variations of the dance, but it seems that a lot of old-time dancers have stories about how a club owner of a particular ethnic group would say that she was doing something wrong and needed to change it, and that is how I am imagining the cultures cross pollinated in the dance. I've even been told that the classic American style should actually be subdivided into East Coast and West Coast vintage styles.

It may also be a regional thing. Norma has danced for many years in the Detroit area where there are substantial populations of both Greek and Lebanese immigrants, so maybe she would have some useful insights.

There was a Bhuz discussion on Sarah Skinner's DVD loooong ago. As I reecall, the bottom line was that what she teaches is not authentic Turkish-style bellydance, but rather a representation of her own style of dancing to Turkish music, which is based on what she had learned from her teachers in New York.

I'm surprised we haven't heard from fellow BHUZer 'turkishdancer', who is a native Turkish born dancer.

Of course she's been a little busy lately (Suhaila and Jamila Salimpour classes, winning BDUC Universal championship, etc.)

Originally Posted by humdinger70

I'm surprised we haven't heard from fellow BHUZer 'turkishdancer', who is a native Turkish born dancer.

Of course she's been a little busy lately (Suhaila and Jamila Salimpour classes, winning BDUC Universal championship, etc.)

..l;, quite busy, indeed...

I think in this discussion it might also be worth remembering that the US is a big country, and each city had/has its own distinct immigrant groups. So a basic nightclub belly dancer in the 1970s in Detroit might have a somewhat different style than one in New York than one in Boston than one in Las Vegas than one in San Francisco. There are things I see in Boston-area American style dancers that are more Lebanese--dancing with cane to dabke springs immediately to mind.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

I think in this discussion it might also be worth remembering that the US is a big country, and each city had/has its own distinct immigrant groups. So a basic nightclub belly dancer in the 1970s in Detroit might have a somewhat different style than one in New York than one in Boston than one in Las Vegas than one in San Francisco. There are things I see in Boston-area American style dancers that are more Lebanese--dancing with cane to dabke springs immediately to mind.

good point.

Well, here's Elizabeth in an impromptu performance. She has studied extensively in Turkey. She does what I think of as the Rom style, but has her own training/personality added to it. Sadly, another clip that shows the footwork and gestures she does better is not working.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVAkLe1OQY0]YouTube - Tribal Fest 7 Performance - Elizabeth Strong 2[/ame]

Originally Posted by aziyade

I think I'm the only person on the planet who didn't learn "skirt dancing" as Turkish style belly dance.

Sarah's dvd performances didn't look remotely like anything I'd been taught was Turkish style.

???

I didn't learn skirt dancing either, most "Turkish" I danced was 9/8 though. We danced the Turkish numbers in pantaloons and little hats! Yes, and it didn't look anything like the Skinner DVD.

I love love LOVE Elizabeth Strong, and I think I know the clip you're referring to, my favorite clip of her isn't on youtube any more.

But she's most definitely Rom style, lived with and studied with the Rom in Istanbul. So not Turkish Oryental.

Whoops, I thought you were looking for a compare and contrast video Rom vs American Skirt vs Turkish Orientale. My bad.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I love love LOVE Elizabeth Strong, and I think I know the clip you're referring to, my favorite clip of her isn't on youtube any more.

But she's most definitely Rom style, lived with and studied with the Rom in Istanbul. So not Turkish Oryental.

Oh, Wow! I didn't know this dancer! She's fabulous!

Originally Posted by jetgirl

Whoops, I thought you were looking for a compare and contrast video Rom vs American Skirt vs Turkish Orientale. My bad.

Oh, no, it's ok.

I'm looking for an explanation of the differences (if any) between American Cabaret and Turkish Oryental from the same era.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

American dancers learned from a lot of Turkish dancers/musicians, but in neighborhoods, not workshops, so the instructors weren't really named.

However, American dancers also learned from Armenian, Lebanese, and Egyptian dancers and musicians. "Neighborhoods" is only partially accurate - there were also the immigrant dancers who worked in the clubs, and Americans learned a lot by watching what they did.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Years later, some American dancers went to work in Cairo and thought 'what the hey? This isn't what I learned. Where's the veil? Where's the zills? What are they doing with those canes?' and the new, 'correct' style was brought back from Egypt.

Wrong. There were Lebanese and Egyptian dancers in the U.S. during the 1950's as well. For example, Naima Akef's sister danced in San Francisco for a time. Samia Gamal danced in New York for a while. Badriya got it right when she pointed out that different cities had different ethnic communities.

Think about it - what type of music was played by George Abdo or Mohammed el Bakkar? It wasn't Turkish. It wasn't Armenian. It was - are you ready for it? Arabic! Some Lebanese, some Egyptian. And yes, there were dancers from Egypt and the Levant from whom American dancers learned stuff.

(continued)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

American Cabaret was dismissed as a 'fantasy' style, inauthentic, Hollywood inspired.

I don't think this is quite the right way to say this.

First, fads come and go. In the 1950's and 1960's, the fad was shaped by the availability of live music, the presence of immigrant dancers, and the lack of video influence (home video didn't become widespread until the 1980's). It was also shaped by the wider American society, such as the sexual revolution that gave women permission to be sexy, I Dream of Jeannie, movies with Middle Eastern themes (such as Son of Sinbad), etc.

By the 1980's, the fad was changing, as fads do. Some fad-followers went to aerobics classes, which become widespread in the 1980's. For those who remained interested in belly dancing, the availability of increasingly-affordable international travel enabled people to go to Egypt, see the star-quality dancers there, buy costumes & music there, and bring home those experiences. Some took their Super 8 film cameras and filmed the dancing there. The rise of home video technology enabled the sale of videos showing Egyptian dancers.

During that era, Egypt had star-quality dancers such as Soheir Zaki and Nagwa Fouad. In contrast, Lebanon had a civil war, and Turkey had soft-core porn videos with costumes that were barely more than a loincloth. So, for those American dancers who looked to the Middle East for inspiration, who was the logical inspiration? The highly-paid, glamorous Egyptian star, or the porno-Turk?

By the time the 1980's arrived, the ethnic club scene was dying out. Fads change, and that fad had run its course.

So, those who wanted to make up their own stuff plus continue the melting pot mentality tended to gravitate toward the new up-and-coming tribal fad. Those who wanted to look to the Middle East for ongoing inspiration tended to gravitate toward Egyptian. Those who liked the American Classic style for what it was tended to keep doing it.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Everyone patted them on the head -- silly, clueless American housewives, how embarrasing - and went off to differentiate Egyptian style into Golden Era, Modern Cairo, Middle Epoch, whatever....

I never got that vibe except on bhuz, and only from self-important types.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Am I getting it?

I'd say you missed several key points.