Thread: Egyptian vs Turkish

Hi ladies, Im getting ready to register for some workshops coming up at a festival, trying to pick from either Egyptian or Turkish class. What's the difference?

Deleted.

What are you hoping to get out of the classes?

Well, let me see if I can summarize some things.

Egyptian vs. Turkish

Turkish BD has more movements that have emphasis in the pelvis; there movements can be wider and less "contained" (not negative, just the movements can be looser (sp?)) than in the Egyptian style.

Typically, veils are used more commonly is Turkish BD, and veils may or may not be used in Egyptian. The veil is usually used in the entrance/introduction and then tossed to the side in Egyptian. Zills are also more common in Turkish BD. You won't see Egyptian dancers using them (zills is the Turkish term; sagat is the Arabic/Egyptian term) unless it's maybe folkloric, like Ghawazee.

The costumes are most definitely different. Explaining it is difficult. You need visuals too.

The music uses different instruments that make each style distinctive. And for a rhythmn example, the 9/8 rhythm and the chiftitelli are very commonly used in Turkish BD.

What exactly do you want to know, because this can go on for days!
I kind of have that "I know it when I see it/hear it" type memory, so I'm being vague right now until I can get concrete details.

Please back me up here, fellow Bhuzzers! Correct me if I'm wrong and add to this!


BDF/KJ

It's really important to know if the Turkish is Rom or Oriental, because they are two very different animals.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

What are you hoping to get out of the classes?

Yeah, actually, that's a better question.




You can learn just as well by doing either style. You can always decide on what style you like better later in your dancing. Trying different styles is good. Are you a beginner? Can you take both?


BDF/KJ

I'll explain as simply as I can, but first let me say that there's often more difference between two instructors in the same style than between the two styles. See if you can find video clips of the instructors online and see whose style is most appealing to you. If you've narrowed it down to a couple of instructors, you can also ask on Bhuz which one might be a better teacher at your level, too, and if we have any knowledge we'll share.

On a really basic level, Egyptian style is smaller, more delicate, more subtle and intimate. It's all about delicate layering, balletic grace, and expressing the emotions of the music. (check out the 'fan forum' thread I started today on Mona for some examples)

Turkish style is generally considered flashier, showier, more energetic, bouncier and earthier. Turkish dancers are more likely to use veils or finger cymbals as props. (I started a thread on Turkish style earlier today, too, in the 'styles' forum, with some clips)

Of course, there's a lot of overlap and the above statements are really broad. I don't mean to imply, for instance, that Turkish dancers don't try to convey the emotion in their music, or that Egyptian dance can't be energetic!

Generally, if you're a lively dancer who's interested in props or that classic belly-dancer goodness, you'll enjoy Turkish style.

If you like a softer, more introspective style you'll enjoy Egyptian.

One other note: If the Turkish is Romani (gypsy) rather than Oriental, which is often what's taught in the US these days, it's only marginally related to bellydance, and as a beginner you may not find the movements as versatile/useful.

I dont think either class is gonna be terribly technical, the descriptions given as to what willl be covered are pretty vague. Im intermediate and toying with the idea of taking both but that may mean less shopping :(

A lot of the difference in movement styles (Id agree with a lot of the above) comes fundamentally and foundationally from the difference in music. Some people really love Turkish music and want to learn to dance to it. I for one LOVE karsilama. I suggest you get some Turkish music and see if it speaks to you and make your decision that way.

Originally Posted by Bellydancefanatic

Zills are also more common in Turkish BD. You won't see Egyptian dancers using them (zills is the Turkish term; sagat is the Arabic/Egyptian term) unless it's maybe folkloric, like Ghawazee.
BDF/KJ

I want to first say that I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means, but I'm not sure that zill-related distinctions apply much here. I believe it was pretty common to see Egyptian dancers playing zills until rather recently, and apparently, turkish dancers in Turkey don't often play them anymore. None that I saw while there played them.

What Egyptian-style and Turkish-style dancers in the US or other countries other than Egypt or Turkey do might be different from the things that dancers do Over There. For example, in NYC most of us play zills, whether we self-identify as Egyptian, Turkish, or Amcab in our styles. I consider myself Egyptian-style and I use zills for a lot more that folkloric dances.

Sorry, I sorta went on for a while about just this. Lemme go read the rest of this thread...

- Leela

OK, this might be overly geeky, or useless to you if you're just starting out with bellydance (are you? I don't mean to assume). But, here's what I gleaned in my studies. I would appreciate more experienced people letting me know if I'm right or wrong about this. I've pieced this together from things I've read or been told or observed, but I believe that I'm missing a lot, too:

When I first began learning about this distinctions between the two styles, I was told that Turkish dance was less refined. I at first believed that this sounded a little harsh. But I think I understand more now why this might be said. In Turkey, wasn't traditional dance discouraged after the founding of the modern republic? I was told that bellydance came back into fashion a few decades later, and pulled in a lot of flashier influences. Meanwhile, in Egypt, the 20th century saw the flowering of the nightclub scene, the introduction of ballet vocabulary, dance on film, and the invention of the modern folkloric troupe (Reda, Khomeya, etcetera). So it seems to me that perhaps there was more of an unbroken line in Egyptian dance, and perhaps a little more fusion with Western styles. It's not at all a value judgement. Just a comment on styles.

But of course I could be totally flailing here.

I want to also support what Nadira said: the dance is encoded in the music. If you want to really feel the difference between Egyptian and Turkish, listen to some really specific examples of music from those places. Taqsim beledi with an accordion and a heavy Romany 9/8, for example. There are other examples, that's just one.

Hope I'm not totally off-base here. There's plenty of refinement in the styles of many Turkish dancers, and plenty of flashiness in some Egyptian dancers' styles. These are general statements that just kind of lay out some basic maps.

- Leela

Originally Posted by flimflamgirl

I want to first say that I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means, but I'm not sure that zill-related distinctions apply much here. I believe it was pretty common to see Egyptian dancers playing zills until rather recently, and apparently, turkish dancers in Turkey don't often play them anymore. None that I saw while there played them.

What Egyptian-style and Turkish-style dancers in the US or other countries other than Egypt or Turkey do might be different from the things that dancers do Over There. For example, in NYC most of us play zills, whether we self-identify as Egyptian, Turkish, or Amcab in our styles. I consider myself Egyptian-style and I use zills for a lot more that folkloric dances.

Sorry, I sorta went on for a while about just this. Lemme go read the rest of this thread...

- Leela

Yeah, that's understandable. The thread says "Egyptian vs. Turkish" which is pretty broad, like my statements. Then I realized she meant she wanted a more narrow, stylistic summary of the styles. So no, zills aren't that relevant here. I also want to note that my native Egyptian instructor, Faten Salama, considers zills Egyptian folkloric, here and in Egypt nevertheless, therefore teaches zills for Ghawazee style or folkloric, not for Raqs Sharqi--Egyptian style. I think using zills during Oriental performances is more of an American hybrid style of Egyptian, American Cabaret, Turkish Oriental, etc. But I'm not an expert either.


BDF/KJ

It's definitely part of American nightclub dancing to play zills no matter what. It's just easier to be heard/hear the rhythm that way, sometimes. And I would never want to contradict Faten Salama, believe me! But there are plenty of examples of Egyptian dancers playing zills in the past, and not in folkloric contexts, so I don't think it's a hard and fast rule, am I wrong?

Fifi:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Q77nLjXWs&feature=PlayList&p=955B7FD2DAF 631B2&index=0&playnext=1]YouTube - Fifi Abdo[/ame]

Naima Akef:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05waCGHTXoI]YouTube - Naima Akef Egyptian Belly dancing in the Egyptian movie[/ame]

I was told that dancers in Egypt stopped playing zills because more of them could afford sagat players in their orchestras. Is this true or is this fakelore?

- Leela

No, no, I don't think it's a hard and fast rule! Dance evolves over time, and I think now its become more folkloric in Egypt. It could also depend on the individual dancer as well. I know for sure zills are used in American Restaurant style (AmCab is same thing?), and I find nothing wrong with it, of course. But that's what Faten told us, so I'm not doing it unless I'm doing folkloric or Am Restaurant style.

Not sure about the sagat players thing. Could be fakelore, but I'll see if I can find out from Faten later this week.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

BDF/KJ

The newer Turkish dancers don't play them so much, either. Didem, Asena.

I think it's generally true that in the US, they're sort of a 'requirement' when dancing Turkish Oryental (not Rom) while in US Egyptian style they're much more optional. But in Egypt and Turkey it seems to vary by time period.

And in American Cabaret they're positively required, I've read over and over that you simply *couldn't* work in a club unless you could play them, per many of the club owners.

I play them when I dance Egyptian beledi. That Tamra Henna clip is about as earthy/beledi as I've ever seen Naima dance, and of course Fifi is considered a beledi style dancer no matter what she's doing. So, not exactly 'folklore' but 'folksy?'

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

??? Did I say something controversial?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

??? Did I say something controversial?

Nope, just making my presence known. I'm getting to the point that I'm just going to keep my mouth shut more often.

Artemis's article is useful for defining Turkish style: Turkish Dancing

why dont you take both? I assume the time conflict ;-(