Thread: Mohammed Shahin: An Egyptian's viewpoint:

This is from last year, but I thought it was an interesting interview. It can be found at this link: www.thehipcircle.com/article/display.asp

Here's just a sample:

INTERVIEW: Mohamed Shahin - NYC, June 28, 2006

On the last evening of his six-month stay in the US, Mohamed Shahin had a candid talk with The Hip Circle about his impressions of dance in this country.

MS: What I like?

THC: Yes.

MS: I can tell you what I don't like.

THC: That's a good start.

MS: I see a lot of confusion. Many people don't know what Oriental Dance is. The problem here – actually in many places including Europe and Brazil – is that a lot of people take a few classes and then become teachers. The confusion happens because a lot of teachers have never been to Egypt or other Arab countries and they are teaching, but they are not teaching the real thing. So I am hoping that more Egyptian teachers – I am talking about Egyptian style – come to the States and teach more people about it. A teacher has to visit the Middle East because when you teach the dance, you not only teach the movement. You have to teach the music, you have to teach the feeling of the music. You have to see the original. You could never see that here – you have to see it in the real people.
But I do see many Americans that stay in Egypt for a long time, doing research and making documentaries, so they can come here to teach the real thing.

THC: Tell me what else doesn't make you happy about dancers here in the West who try to do Middle-Eastern style dance?

MS: I see that a lot of people here mix it - like fusion. Of course, as an Egyptian I love to see my dance done as the real dance, not mixed with something else - especially when it's not done right. That makes me so sad. But this year I noticed that many teachers and dancers from everywhere in the States are going to Egypt and they will be able to get more experience and see the real thing, the real teachers. That makes me very happy.

THC: In the States there is a thought that Bellydance is not Raks Sharqi, that Bellydance is somewhat bigger than Raks Sharqi, that it includes a lot more styles in it. What would you comment on that?

MS: This is a whole new style. This is American. Americans do that. But as Arabs we don't call it 'Bellydance.’ We do it now because Americans and people all over the world can only understand the word 'Bellydance.’ But we have the real name 'Raks Sharqi' which means 'Oriental Dance.’

THC: What about the thought that Bellydance is mixed with Tribal Dance and now they call it 'Bellydance tribal fusion'? Is that something that you see as a good thing?

MS: Okay... mmh... actually, they mix it. They mix everything. Yeah, I know that they do Tribal Dance in California, and they do it here. They take some movement from Oriental Dance and some movement from somewhere else and they make Tribal Dance.


Shahin's own website: www.mohamedshahin.com/

Originally Posted by norma

A teacher has to visit the Middle East because when you teach the dance, you not only teach the movement. You have to teach the music, you have to teach the feeling of the music. You have to see the original. You could never see that here – you have to see it in the real people.
But I do see many Americans that stay in Egypt for a long time, doing research and making documentaries, so they can come here to teach the real thing.

I'm torn about this.
I do think that, to get as strong a feeling of the proper form as possible, you need to be "over there" doing it. You need to spend as much time as possible learning from the dancers in that region, being in that region. You need to pull yourself out of an American viewpoint, and try to pull yourself into that regions viewpoint, so that you understand, as much as possible, the feeling behind the dance -- why you walk and step the way you do. All too often we dancers who move without a true understanding of why they take that step, and being there, watching it in person, learning by doing -- these all help the dancer be a dancer of that style as quickly and elegantly as possible. (yet do NOT promise that dancer will ever be good...)
But I'm also a fan of the "dance=language" theory. I do think that you can learn to speak the language of Egyptian (or Turkish, or Lebanese, etc.) forms via watching, listening, and really drilling down and studying those forms from afar. For that, though, I do think we do need to lay the blame at the feet of the teachers who didn't take that study to heart, and pass on raw Movement Vocabulary without teaching things like dancing to the music, maquams, the art of improvisation, even decent posture!
To me, there's more to teaching this dance than just throwing a choreography together and having people move. And I think Mohammed's comments strike to the heart of why we as Teachers (or myself as a once-and-hopefully-future teacher) need to keep that kind of work in mind, even for beginner dancers.

I see that a lot of people here mix it - like fusion. Of course, as an Egyptian I love to see my dance done as the real dance, not mixed with something else - especially when it's not done right. That makes me so sad.

I love fusion, so I'm quick to defend it. I did an article for an online dance mag last year that was, in part, a defense of fusion. And as much as I personally understand the frustrations of the people from the Mid-East who honor raqs sharqi, I also feel strongly that they miss the point of these evolutions. American forms should be embraced, not displaced out of the raqs family.

Originally Posted by asim1

But I'm also a fan of the "dance=language" theory. I do think that you can learn to speak the language of Egyptian (or Turkish, or Lebanese, etc.) forms via watching, listening, and really drilling down and studying those forms from afar.

Asim, interesting analogy, and I think it's apt. Though, I disagree with your implication that a person can learn to speak a foreign language without spending time in the country.

My bachelor's degree is in journalism in French. I have also studied German and Spanish. Although I took college coursework that was taught ENTIRELY in these languages, and used textbooks entirely in these languages, I found that none of this was as effective for me in truly LEARNING the languages as visiting the countries in which these languages were spoken. In other words, before I went to France and Germany, I knew memorized vocabulary and grammatical structures. But once I actually visited these countries, I acquired the ability to THINK in the other language, to DREAM in the other language, to write my own original poetry in the other language, to feel comfortable functioning at all levels in the other language.

Taking this back to dance, I discovered on my first trip to Egypt that simply BEING there and surrounding myself with the culture gave me a depth of insight into the music that I don't think I could have acquired by staying home. It helped me better understand who the audience was for the dance by going to nightclubs "over there" and seeing who else was in the audience. It helped me better internalize what A Trade Like Any Other said about history and culture by seeing how everyday people dressed, what they ate, how they behaved.

Originally Posted by asim1

I love fusion, so I'm quick to defend it.

I don't know if you need to defend it. This is his opinion, that's all. I don't think you *can* change his mind with a defense, any more than he can change yours with an attack.

Here's my take on fusion: it's good, when done well, which hopefully means that the fuser understands two forms separately before fusing them.

What I see happening more and more is that people are LEARNING a fusion form of belly dance as their first and only exposure to the dance form, and it runs the risk of watering down the original form. This may be where people like Shahin are coming from, when they say they do not care for it.

I enjoy fusion done well, but I hate to see some of the newer crop of dancers who think fusion is the ONLY thing, and don't know or understand the traditional roots of belly dance - and some of them even have a condescending attitude towards it.

I desperately love traditional belly dance, fusion has its place in my world for spice, but I don't want to lose the original in favor of all fusion all the time.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Asim, interesting analogy, and I think it's apt. Though, I disagree with your implication that a person can learn to speak a foreign language without spending time in the country.

I agree, and I amend my point to the extent that you can't gain mastery in a language as a living construct without "being there". In making my analogy, I was a little on the rash side, and I apologize for that.
It's like Latin -- there are many people who study it, but no one in modern times speaks it like a native of Rome would have, from any time during Rome's history. We may know bits and pieces of how it was spoken, from extant texts and surviving Roman Catholic rituals, yet it's not the same as living in Rome during that time period.
I have a friend and fellow Scadian who's job is to actually translate Medieval Arabic texts for a major American University(!!!). He's discussed, in classes he teaches in the SCA, how little we truly know about how it was spoken in period. There are hints in the writings as to the changes Arabic underwent in it's written mode, but that doesn't necessary give hints as to the spoken mode, at all...

Anyway. I'm not sure how to map this to my dance analogy quite yet. But it gives me stuff to ponder, and I thank you for that! :)

Well it was quite interesting when I met him in person and discussed with him his views on American dancing, and the BDSS in particular. He agreed that as a "show" or "performance" they were great. However when it came down to the bald question of whether or not he thought they were good dancers he had to say no. (Note this is in generalities not specifics. Some of the BDSS are better than others.) He thought the show was good but the individual dancing was not. I tend to agree with him on that one.

Also, I have to say that although I consider myself to be an experienced dancer I have never gone to Eygpt or danced overseas. I had the opportunity but for one reason or another, due to war, or schooling, or life, I made the decision not to go. I do think sometimes I made a mistake in not going because it would have definitely enhanced my creditianals as a dancer. Most of my friends went and some had great experiences and some came back with horror stories. I presume I'd have been a horror story because I have low tolerance for bull****.

However I must point out that I can name at least 12 dozen dancers who have gone to Eygpt and while the experience may have gained them a greater appreciation for the art, the trip in and of itself did not miraclously turn them into great dancers.

In talking to Mohammed, his biggest beef was the same that Hossam Ramzy and Princess Madiha have expressed. Dancers who dance but ignore the music. He appreciated different expressions of the dance. He is after all a trained dancer and not in just Eygptian style dance. But in reality it wasn't belly dancing if the underlying concept of following the music with the body was missing.

I learned how to speak Spanish, even with the right accent! Ive never been to Mexico or Spain or South America. (I didn't learn it from my parents or grandparents either) Although I concede I learned it as a second language and not as a foreign language, which makes a difference.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Though, I disagree with your implication that a person can learn to speak a foreign language without spending time in the country.

Anyway, I consider myself a "professional hobbiest". And I think most people who belly dance are hobbiests. I'd love to learn from a native dancer and when one comes my way to stay, I'll pounce. As it is, most of my disposable income goes into private lessons, workshops and costuming. If I win the lottery, I'll most definitely engage Raqia in private lessons.

Until then, I don't think its fair to criticize us so harshly. We're doing the best we can with what resources we have. I think YouTube will go a long way in opening our eyes to what bdance looks like "over there".

I have to admit I get tired of hearing this argument. I fully appreciate that, as Westerners, we are not going to be dancing the way the natives do, and I also appreciate that it must be frustrating for a native to see this ... especially if the world assumes that what we're doing is the real thing. Having travelled and had extended stays in foreign countries (although not in the ME), I can also appreciate that you can't truly "know" a culture until you're emmersed in it.

At the same time, though, unless you've been living under a rock, most people know enough to be able to make some educated decisions about what they're watching. Unless the dancer looks ME and she's dancing in the ME, the question has to come to mind of where and how she learned this dance. My experience has been that many people have asked me these very questions after I've performed, which gives me the opportunity to explain.

So why are we continually taken to task for not "being" ME and performing Raks? Do those who perform folkloric dances from other cultures get the same kind of feedback? I don't blame ME'ers for wanting to keep this dance their own and I believe that this is the core of what it's all about. But the sad reality is that they are the ones that are suppressing it in their own countries, while it is exploding in popularity over here. Change is inevitable in the world, and this dance will inevitably change as people from different cultures begin to make it their own, too.

We have the old movies and videos, though, and when ME'ers are ready to embrace their dancers with the same kind of pride that they have for the actual dance, they can celebrate them publicly to the world and say, "This is the real thing, this is how we want it portrayed from out culture and we are willing to concede that these women can be artists without being whores. We are also willing to swallow our male dominated society's pride and acknowledge that they can be an amazing business opportunity for us, all by themselves!"

Originally Posted by vilia

So why are we continually taken to task for not "being" ME and performing Raks?

Some of it is simply that people from "over there" do have expectations, and as the (disputative) originators of the dance form, they have a feeling of propriety. Despite the rather two-faced treatment of dancers in the region overall, there's also a point about respecting cultural boundaries that I think can, and should be made.
This is part of why I try to aim for some kind of reconciliation between the various branches. I'd like to have people focus on acknowledging the history, and then tackling the bigger issues of mainstream (on both sides of the world) education and encouraging the growth of the form(s). The fights over the former seem to overtake any attempts to the do the latter.

Everyone wants to prove a point. And they have a right, even a duty I say, to get that point out there, and to help fill in the gaps of our history, esp. since so much of this form's development seems to be shrouded in myth and ill-researched points. I think some of the "constant nagging" comes from that point of "why are all these myths still around?", as well.

Do those who perform folkloric dances from other cultures get the same kind of feedback?

Actually, yea. you might poke over at Gilded Serpent; there was an article about hula that got some attention over these same issues. And I know there's been plenty of drama over people appropriating various dance forms from African and munging them without proper credit -- in fact, I tend to have a "rule of thumb" to distrust any troupe that says it does "African Dance", without saying at least what region it comes from. By that metric, Raqs Sharqi is "African Dance"!

Originally Posted by asim1

I tend to have a "rule of thumb" to distrust any troupe that says it does "African Dance", without saying at least what region it comes from. By that metric, Raqs Sharqi is "African Dance"!

My friend's sister told us once that she wanted to learn how to speak African.
after the crickets finished chirping...
q: "Um, what kind of African language do you want to learn, M?"
a: "Oh you know, just regular African. I'd like to be able to talk with everybody."

..l;,

Originally Posted by asim1

Some of it is simply that people from "over there" do have expectations, and as the (disputative) originators of the dance form, they have a feeling of propriety. Despite the rather two-faced treatment of dancers in the region overall, there's also a point about respecting cultural boundaries that I think can, and should be made.

I do understand this feeling of propriety, as I said. But no matter how much they complain, unless the performers are totally immersed in the culture they are not likely to ever become Mohamed Shahin's idea of good dancers. For him to make the statement that BDSS are not good dancers, just because they're not doing what is authentic to a native is an unfair statement. They are Westernized and showy because .... well.... they're Westerners! My point is that if, for example, Egypt were to come up with an equivalent world touring troupe of authentic dancers, then there'd probably not even be any demand for something like BDSS.

Originally Posted by asim1

Actually, yea. you might poke over at Gilded Serpent; there was an article about hula that got some attention over these same issues. And I know there's been plenty of drama over people appropriating various dance forms from African and munging them without proper credit -- in fact, I tend to have a "rule of thumb" to distrust any troupe that says it does "African Dance", without saying at least what region it comes from. By that metric, Raqs Sharqi is "African Dance"!

This is what I've heard and that's why I asked the question. Thank you for the confirmation.

Originally Posted by asim1

And I know there's been plenty of drama over people appropriating various dance forms from African and munging them without proper credit -- in fact, I tend to have a "rule of thumb" to distrust any troupe that says it does "African Dance", without saying at least what region it comes from. By that metric, Raqs Sharqi is "African Dance"!

Oh, yeah. When I was looking for an African dance instructor for my studio, I got an e-mail for someone who wanted to 'audition' for me. I inquired about her background in African dance -- she said 'I was on the dance team in school and we learned some ethnic dance moves." ,r:;

Inevitably, dancers are always going to want to get a part of any style dance they find appealing and just as inevitably they will put their own style onto it.

Unless someone has a more pressing interest in a particular culture or origin the dance is going to take precidence over pursuit of the autenticity and I think that's just fine, even good at times.

I like fusion and I like American style Belly Dance. I also love original Middle Eastern dance but I know that there is no way I'm going to be able to pursue that part. Can't afford it, don't have enough time in my dance life; I truly would love to though and I think it's a wonderful thing for any dancer to do so.

I really think we should stop apologizing about doing it our way though. It's still an admirable endeavor and what makes dance "good" is subjective.

Originally Posted by norma

Well it was quite interesting when I met him in person and discussed with him his views on American dancing, and the BDSS in particular. He agreed that as a "show" or "performance" they were great. However when it came down to the bald question of whether or not he thought they were good dancers he had to say no. (Note this is in generalities not specifics. Some of the BDSS are better than others.) He thought the show was good but the individual dancing was not. I tend to agree with him on that one.

purely out of curiosity: do you know if by "not good dancers" he mean not good raqs dancers or not good dancers, period?

i know many dancers who are wonderful dancers, but not good raqs sharqi dancers.

On the point of whether we should strive to dance as much as possible like Egyptians (or Lebanese, or Turks) or not...

A lot depends on who our audience is. If we aspire to get gigs performing for people "of the culture" at weddings, ethnic restaurants, etc, OR if we are claiming to represent "Middle Eastern dance" in an ethnic dance festival or international dance festival, then I'd say we have a responsibility to embrace the original ethnic style, and dance in a manner that suits that style as closely as possible. That includes striving to reduce our American accents.

If we have no intention of seeking gigs in front of such audiences, then it's fine to be Westernized in whatever way we mean by that - prop-happy, showy, merging Turkish moves with Egyptian, etc. However, (and this is a HUGE "however"), even then I think we should strive to dance in a way that is at least respectful to the cultural roots of the dance. By respectful, I mean we should avoid doing stuff that would be openly offensive to the majority people of the cultures the dance comes from. No mock beheading on stage of troupe-mates with our swords, no porno faces with steamy pheromone emissions, no dancing to the call to prayer, no cunnilingus poses or mimicking of the sex act on stage, etc. Even if we make announcements that we're doing our own Western thing, in the eyes of the public "belly dancing" is often closely linked with the Middle East. People have seen it in movies such as From Russia with Love, etc and when they see belly dancers they assume they're seeing something that represents the ethnic groups from which this dance comes - sometimes they don't notice our announcements or program notes. I want the lasting impression of the uninformed public to be something positive, such as "That was beautiful," or "I really enjoyed that," rather than "Ewww, if this is what belly dance is, then those people in the Middle East really are sex-crazed barbarians."

Even if we enjoy incorporating Western touches in the dance, we're still representing Middle Eastern culture in the eyes of the public whether we intend to or not. So please, let's do so in a classy, dignified way. I personally intend to continue doing American-style veil work when dancing for non-ethnic audiences, but I avoid the "peekaboo" fake-face-veil poses that so many dancers do because I think those poses mock a lifestyle that most Muslims take very seriously. I personally intend to continue dancing with a sword, but you won't see me wielding it as if I were a terrorist about to kill a hostage. And so on.

Excellent post, Shira. Once again, you've done a great job summing it all up.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

A lot depends on who our audience is. If we aspire to get gigs performing for people "of the culture" at weddings, ethnic restaurants, etc, OR if we are claiming to represent "Middle Eastern dance" in an ethnic dance festival or international dance festival, then I'd say we have a responsibility to embrace the original ethnic style, and dance in a manner that suits that style as closely as possible. That includes striving to reduce our American accents.
If we have no intention of seeking gigs in front of such audiences, then it's fine to be Westernized in whatever way we mean by that - prop-happy, showy, merging Turkish moves with Egyptian, etc.

But then dancers like Randa Kamal appear to me to be gaining a Western accent. Her style is not the demure, subtle movement of Sohair Zaki, but strong and balletic in many ways. Are we not allowed to be creative and innovative in that way too? Or are you saying it's only okay if Egyptians do it, then we are allowed to follow suit? Nadia Gamal's style was popular with the Egyptians during her time, and she most definitely was Western influenced. Turkish dancers are adopting a more Egyptian style while maintaining their Turkish accents. It's only a matter of time until Egyptians take on some Turkish moves, I'm sure. Perhaps they already have. I mean, we could go round and round about this sort of thing forever, but the bottom line is that, as Gwoofer said, people are going to be creative because that's who we are.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

However, (and this is a HUGE "however"), even then I think we should strive to dance in a way that is at least respectful to the cultural roots of the dance. By respectful, I mean we should avoid doing stuff that would be openly offensive to the majority people of the cultures the dance comes from. No mock beheading on stage of troupe-mates with our swords, no porno faces with steamy pheromone emissions, no dancing to the call to prayer, no cunnilingus poses or mimicking of the sex act on stage, etc.

I think this is a "given" for performance in front of any audience, period!

Originally Posted by Melania

As far as the face peeking out from the veil thing, if Nadia Gamal could do it, I don't see why I can't take similar artistic license. Lebanon is not as repressed as Egypt that way.

I was going to say the same thing. I realize the peek-a-boo veil is passe, but I always thought that, as opposed to poking fun, it was more about the mystery of the beauty behind the veil and accenting the expressiveness of the eyes. Westerners have a fascination with that aspect of the veil.

Originally Posted by vilia

Are we not allowed to be creative and innovative in that way too? Or are you saying it's only okay if Egyptians do it, then we are allowed to follow suit?

All I'm saying is that when we dance in environments where we are either "representing" Middle Eastern dance arts (such as an ethnic dance festival) or performing for an audience of Middle Eastern people, we should try to represent the dance in a way that people of the culture will appreciate and recognize as their own. But remember the other point I made, which I am bolding to make sure it's not missed this time: If we're dancing for a different kind of audience, then fine, we can be as creative and innovative as we please, subject to my other point about respect.

For now, I won't digress on the whole peek-a-boo veil issue. If someone wants to start another thread about it, I'll comment there. In this thread, I'm trying to keep to the point of Egyptians' reaction to Westerners doing their dance.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

But remember the other point I made, which I am bolding to make sure it's not missed this time: If we're dancing for a different kind of audience, then fine, we can be as creative and innovative as we please, subject to my other point about respect.

I really didn't miss your point, Shira. My question is where do you draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable to the ME audience, when the ME dancers themselves are being creative and innovative? This is a hyperthetical question, of course, because I don't think that even Mohammed Shahin could answer that difinitively.

Originally Posted by vilia

I really didn't miss your point, Shira. My question is where do you draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable to the ME audience, when the ME dancers themselves are being creative and innovative? This is a hyperthetical question, of course, because I don't think that even Mohammed Shahin could answer that difinitively.

I'm feeling a bit exasperated by this nit-picking. Sometimes it just comes down to applying good judgment.

Throwing in a bit more. I don't think anyone could argue that good points have been made by all and in context they are all correct.

I think it really does just come down to being smart about what you want to do and represent. A cultural project can be quites different than a dance project and everyone has to decide for themselves what they want to represent in that said smart manner, hopefully.

If your main drive is authenticity and/OR appealing to the Egyptian (or pick a culture) audience, you obviously should be educated in what will appeal to that audience and comply to the degree that you think you can get away with. There is probably less room for a western dancer than for one who is from that culture simply because the audience will be harder on you and will be looking for things to pick apart - that's across the board in all pursuits, not just dance. A classic example is what marshal arts students have to go through in terms of almost a razing when they wish to compete or study under the country of origin of their chosen style.

Personally, I don't have any interest in being authentically Egyptian. I'm first and foremost a dancer and as such my interest is in dance, anything goes as long as it's good (and that's subjective). I like the american developments and I like the american dance community, won't ever have a middle eastern stage name and don't care about the authenticity of costuming and feel free to create new movement and use old.

So obviously I won't be dancing at any Egyptian weddings ..l;, .

I do thoroughly enjoy any kind of dance - again, as long as it's good. To me that means a well trained body using movement and music cohesively.

To the subject of offending the countries in which some of the movement originated. Well, some things, again, are just common sense and kind consideration. BUT, sometimes art offends and we all have a different sensitivity monitor, so, at times, some of us just have to let the chips fall and find a niche.

I do believe Mr. Shahin's statement that the dancing was not good is patently ridiculous. He is entitled to his opinion as we all are.

Gah, blathering again, sorry

I think the crux may be down to what the dance *means* and what its purpose is, in our cultures and in theirs. As I understand it, oriental dance at its base level is a culturally sanctioned means of personal expression which allows people - women in particular - to express desires and emotions that they may not express so freely at other times and in other ways. Whether you dance professionally or not, technically wonderfully or not, is not the key issue. It's both of its culture and intensely personal. When it becomes professional, it's a job that you do because you need to make a crust and you've got a talent in that direction, or you love it so very passionately that you're prepared to risk social ostracism to pursue it as a career.

We tend to make professional level performance and technical excellence the ultimate goal of our belly dance experience. We have a lot more personal freedom when it comes to choosing who we marry, who we date, if we date, if we marry, what kind of work we want to do, etc etc. While a lot of Western people can and do find tremendous personal emotional satisfaction from belly dancing, it's not embedded in our culture as an "official" way to let off steam, or to express what we cannot otherwise express. It can function like that for many people, but it's in a different way.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I'm feeling a bit exasperated by this nit-picking. Sometimes it just comes down to applying good judgment.

I'm confused and sorry that you see it as nit-picking, because this is a genuine question for me. There is this underlying snobbishness (that comes from both us and them) about us not doing it as well as them, but it's always that elusive "something" that no-one can put their finger on, and I can't help but suspect it's often more political than factual (if that makes any sense). Maybe I'm way off base, but until Mohammed Shahin or another ME'er with the same kind of credibility can come up with specifics, I guess I'll remain confused.

I tend to agree with Gwoofer's point of view, although I have danced at Egyptian weddings and been well received. I guess that's why, for me, I'd like the question of the specifics of authenticity and appropriateness more defined.

Zumarrad makes a good point too, and maybe that's a key to the answer.

Zum does make a good point. From what I can tell, the Egyptians measure the dance by how well the dancer A) connects with her audience and B) captures/reflects the emotions of the music. By those standards, the BDSS show is NOT good dancing. Even seeing seeing the show live, in an excellent seat, I could feel a sense of...emptiness. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the show! It was wonderful to see one high-quality performance after another, with gorgeous costumes and staging. But there really was NO emotional content to the show at all.

OTOH, from a Western viewpoint -- looking for precision, 'tricks' done with the body, flashy showmanship -- they were better dancers than, say, Dina or Fifi.

It's a different vantage point entirely, and 'good dancer' is utterly subjective, depending on the viewer's criteria.

I don't know if travel to Egypt is necessary to dance Egyptian style, but I know it's something you can't ever learn by studying second and third hand and watching American dancers do it. *IF* you're interested in learning that style, you have to watch native dancers, and you have to see them live, because these qualities don't translate well on video. And it's preferable to study with them as well.

I agree with everything this guy said. I really don't understand the point of argument here. This is after all THEIR culture and their dance. I am astonished by the ignorance of people who have been studying this dance for so long, yet continue to think that they can take an artform of a culture that is in no way shape or form related to them and claim that they know better. This guy is Egyptian, he was born and raised there and I'm sure he knows a whole lot more than someone who isn't from that culture. I read the entire interview and I think he makes valid points.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Zum does make a good point. From what I can tell, the Egyptians measure the dance by how well the dancer . By those standards, the BDSS show is NOT good dancing. Even seeing seeing the show live, in an excellent seat, I could feel a sense of...emptiness. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the show! It was wonderful to see one high-quality performance after another, with gorgeous costumes and staging. But there really was NO emotional content to the show at all.

OTOH, from a Western viewpoint -- -- they were better dancers than, say, Dina or Fifi.

It's a different vantage point entirely, and 'good dancer' is utterly subjective, depending on the viewer's criteria.

I don't know if travel to Egypt is necessary to dance Egyptian style, but I know it's something you can't ever learn by studying second and third hand and watching American dancers do it. *IF* you're interested in learning that style, you have to watch native dancers, and you have to see them live, because these qualities don't translate well on video. And it's preferable to study with them as well.

I don't agree at all - in point because I don't agree with what Lauren (hi anyway Lauren ) says is western vs. egyptian. . To me and so so by far the majority of all dancers what makes dance good is most definitely not "looking for precision, 'tricks' done with the body, flashy showmanship" but most definitely is "A) connects with her audience and B) captures/reflects the emotions of the music" and I don't believe that can ever be learned no matter how often you go to egypt or emerse yourself in the culture. It's a passion you are born with and bring to fruition with the language of technique, some more some less. Otherwise, why dance at all!

If you think that ballet dancers, jazz dancers, hell, polka dancers do not have passion and the same drive for expression with movement to music you just don't understand dancers and dancing.

I believe, where most opinions go perhaps a little off is in reading what is real passion and musicality. Every dancer does not bring the same energy to every dance they do and all venues are not as conducive to showing that part. But the dancer is still the dancer. I know four of the BDSS women and at least I can speak for those four that they have mostly the qualities often attributed to egyptian dancers and do not really put an emphasis on those often attributed to western dancers although they are indeed, basically western.

Originally Posted by lulu_85

I agree with everything this guy said. I really don't understand the point of argument here. This is after all THEIR culture and their dance. I am astonished by the ignorance of people who have been studying this dance for so long, yet continue to think that they can take an artform of a culture that is in no way shape or form related to them and claim that they know better. This guy is Egyptian, he was born and raised there and I'm sure he knows a whole lot more than someone who isn't from that culture. I read the entire interview and I think he makes valid points.

Do you have a link to the interview?

You're right, but I also didn't express myself very well. I didn't mean to say that the Western dancer isn't also expressing the music, of course. But the expression is different, more polished, less raw. The polish itself is more valued, and rawness without any polish on it at all isn't really valued -- or understood -- by Western audiences.

Fifi Abdo or Faten Salama would have no place among the Superstars. What they do would be totally out of place in that show. And, while any of the Superstars might be capable of performing some lovely Egyptian style dance (I know for a fact Jillina is!) that's not what they do during that show because it's not what that show is about.

None of that's a judgement, so please don't be offended. It's not what they're *trying* to do -- they're trying to tailor the dance to appeal to a Western audience and they do a superb job, IMO.

The show I saw wasn't about emotion -- if it was, all the choices would have been made differently, starting with the music. That show was about polish, which is exactly what we need to show the GP right now, it was a good choice for them to make.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

You're right, but I also didn't express myself very well. I didn't mean to say that the Western dancer isn't also expressing the music, of course. But the expression is different, more polished, less raw. The polish itself is more valued, and rawness without any polish on it at all isn't really valued -- or understood -- by Western audiences.

Fifi Abdo or Faten Salama would have no place among the Superstars. What they do would be totally out of place in that show. And, while any of the Superstars might be capable of performing some lovely Egyptian style dance (I know for a fact Jillina is!) that's not what they do during that show because it's not what that show is about.

None of that's a judgement, so please don't be offended. It's not what they're *trying* to do -- they're trying to tailor the dance to appeal to a Western audience and they do a superb job, IMO.

The show I saw wasn't about emotion -- if it was, all the choices would have been made differently, starting with the music. That show was about polish, which is exactly what we need to show the GP right now, it was a good choice for them to make.

Of course I'm not offended! And I also agree that this particular show is totally not what that's about. It's a slick production with a certain dancer look and it does what it does extremely well, even if we wish it were doing something else, or at least that someone was ,r:;

Now what I don't agree with is your assessment that westerners like it less raw and admittedly that may be scewed by my own preferences. I have a great appreciation for raw with no polish, probably a preference for raw with good skills (different than polish). It's like Robert Goulett vs. Janis Joplin - I'd bet the same differences exist within the egyptian dance lovers too ..l;,