Thread: "Cabaret" Debke ?? History?

So now I know the diffs between Saidi and Debke - Nawari rhythms, so I'm itching to dance some of that old George Abdo and Mohammed el Bakkar stuff.

Now I can do a line dance debke with the college kids just fine, but trying to add debke to a regular "American belly dance" or "American cabaret" dance has me a tad stumped.

I've seen theatrical debke, and love it, but I don't think that's what dancers used to do in nightclubs, was it? I'm trying to understand how Vintage American Belly Dancers would have used debke music in their sets?

(Basically I want to belly dance in bedleh to this music and do more than stomp, and NOT look clueless. I love the intricate footwork I've seen with some line dance debkes and I was wondering if classic style dancers incorporated that footwork into their dancing.)

Did you all just stomp a lot, or was the dancing just more earthy and heavy? Or did dancers just avoid using a lot of this music? (I have a hard time believing that, given the popularity of el Bakkar and Abdo.) Thanks!

hello!
i am old school, it was taught in my day, that a debke or 9/8 section comes last.
and it makes sense.they are the most athelitic part, ( it is like pulling a tripple sauwcow out your ass in the last min of your routene for the double points!)

..if you end with chant daloona, use a long version, like DJ#3. pick up a napkin, give it to the dude of honor, start the line....go home.lol

"double sauwcow out of your ass"........l;,..l;,..l;,

you soooooo funny!

Originally Posted by aziyade

(Basically I want to belly dance in bedleh to this music and do more than stomp, and NOT look clueless. I love the intricate footwork I've seen with some line dance debkes and I was wondering if classic style dancers incorporated that footwork into their dancing.)

Speaking for my village... Those of us who knew a few debke steps might inject them here and there to show that we knew what we were doing, but we wouldn't do that for the whole song.

One approach was to take known debke steps and then tweak them to make them look more belly dance-ish. For example, let's say you're doing the stomp, stomp, 2 steps forward, stomp, stomp, 2 steps back variation. We might substitute a hip drop for the stomps, and maybe a body wave or something instead of the travel forward/back. This type of approach preserved the flavor of the original folk dance even though the result might not be recognizable as the step the dancer used as her starting point. But again, not everybody did this because not everybody knew actual debke steps.

Another thing that educated dancers might do is save the debke for the audience participation section of their act, and then get audience members up to form a line and teach them how to do one of the simple steps.

Most people (both those who really knew debke and those who didn't) would just do ordinary belly dance movement, whatever fit their personal aesthetic.

Remember that a long skirt hides the feet, so doing a lot of intricate footwork is kind of a waste of time. And even if you're wearing harem pants, any audience members who are not in the first row won't see the footwork unless you're on a raised stage.

Originally Posted by aziyade

So now I know the diffs between Saidi and Debke - Nawari rhythms, so I'm itching to dance some of that old George Abdo and Mohammed el Bakkar stuff.

Now I can do a line dance debke with the college kids just fine, but trying to add debke to a regular "American belly dance" or "American cabaret" dance has me a tad stumped.

I've seen theatrical debke, and love it, but I don't think that's what dancers used to do in nightclubs, was it? I'm trying to understand how Vintage American Belly Dancers would have used debke music in their sets?

(Basically I want to belly dance in bedleh to this music and do more than stomp, and NOT look clueless. I love the intricate footwork I've seen with some line dance debkes and I was wondering if classic style dancers incorporated that footwork into their dancing.)

Did you all just stomp a lot, or was the dancing just more earthy and heavy? Or did dancers just avoid using a lot of this music? (I have a hard time believing that, given the popularity of el Bakkar and Abdo.) Thanks!

I cant speak for what ACB dancers used to do. But Sharki dancers will aknowledge Saiidi in Sharki posture (straighter) with the leg lifts and hip work without necessarily including the down-heel bounce. OR, the heel bounce is used while extending the body sideways and thus avoiding the up'n down bo(o)bbing. I've seen the same be done by Lebanese dancers or in Lebanese style choreographies. Randa's base utilization of the base Saiidi step is a great example among other movements she "fuses" with elements from Sharki and Saiidi/folk:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGZTEMPFAJ0]YouTube - Randa Kamel[/ame]

Any staccato movement (accented) can be traded in for another accented movement - or even made legato (flowy/elongated). You can reverse directions, you can move the accent around in your body. The options really are endless.

Debke is a mans dance I shouldn't worry about it too much.

666 , i love skating ! ( they have the best booty, except for adam lambert! )

Originally Posted by Candi

Debke is a mans dance I shouldn't worry about it too much.

Candi, I see where your statement is coming from, but with all due respect, I beg to differ with this statement. Women dance Debkeh even in the well established troupes in the Middle East. If you were to "not worry about it too much" then in essence you are saying that the details and characteristics in any dance that has mainly been done by men shouldnt be worried about too much if the dancer is female... that'd put Saiidi on the top of my list along with Bhangra! ..cr.: Scary thought, innit, when women are usually the dancers that do justice to Bhangra more than anyone else and when women are the dancers that bring a flavor to the Saiidi sets differing from what the men do - and through that makes it more "interesting".

I see what you're saying, but I personally feel that a dancer would miss out on a LOT of wonderful dance experiences if she was to leave all the "mens" stuff out. Gender equality has happened happened you know :) TG it did.

debke is not a mans dance. its a village dance.

david is right! but just as with a good hye halay, the women rock it!

Hey I enjoy doing Debke but it is a guys thing,sorry if that upsets you but its so.that doesn't mean i don't know how to do it or won't do it or won't lead a debke line but it is a mans dance,look at any troupe and its the guys who get the exciting bits it is also a group dance not so solo effort.Same with halay. i do them both, frequently in the restaurants where I work. all I'm saying is you've no need to get hung up with being the best debke dancer ever-learn what you want to keep your self happy. But the arabic dance police ain't coming to arrest you if you aren't the best debke dancer in town.

Originally Posted by Candi

Hey I enjoy doing Debke but it is a guys thing,sorry if that upsets you but its so.that doesn't mean i don't know how to do it or won't do it or won't lead a debke line but it is a mans dance,look at any troupe and its the guys who get the exciting bits it is also a group dance not so solo effort.Same with halay. i do them both, frequently in the restaurants where I work. all I'm saying is you've no need to get hung up with being the best debke dancer ever-learn what you want to keep your self happy. But the arabic dance police ain't coming to arrest you if you aren't the best debke dancer in town.

Just like you dont need to train to be a bellydancer - all you need to do is shake your boobs and ass around in a cropped Tshirt and that's all there is to it? .w.: .............

I'm not upset. Bhuz is a learning tool for many. You cant come and make statements like that without being asked to back them up. I gave you the necessary justification and explanation for why you were mistaken and why I disagree. That doesnt mean I was upset. However, this post - come on.... give me a break. Seriously? You couldnt possibly be of this mindset as a dancer? A dancer's mindset, as a representative of cultural dances, is to reflect what is in fact a reality in the culture they represent... not their personal opinion. I get up against this in Bhangra ALL the time, and frankly - it's such a disrespectful way to approach things. No disrespect to you, Im just reflecing my point of view of people that approach dances of their own or other cultures with pre-conceived notions of what's what. It's cultural and artistic ethnocentric, or selfcentric at the least, imperialism.

As a dancer and a technician your job is to reflect the music. If the music reflects a Debke influence - are you then going to "hang out" for the 14 minutes of Debke the keyboard player threw in there or are you going to do an "homage" to the characteristics of Debke? Egyptians throw their hair around in homage to Khaleegi all the time, and Zaar, and Haggallah, and Shaabi, and Gawazee, and Balady... all the time in their orientale sets. If they are not educated to know WHAT the actual style is performed like or arent even remotedly familiar with what the characteristics are - how can they give a wink in the dances' direction?

You may consider yourself a lover of movement - and be a great movement lover and representative of that love, and have a FUN experience and share the joy and live all fulfilled all your life. But you can not call yourself a representative of Middle Eastern dances and culture if you "only learn what you want and like". That's just not how it works. I couldnt STAND arabesques for the first 4 years of my dance career. I dont wear skirts, why do I need to open my leg and look like I am peeing on a tree? I had to learn though. You can not dance Orientale without Arabesques just because you dont like them or never bothered to learn to do them properly.....You cant avoid learning something because YOUR cultural perception is that it's too butch, femme, soft, hard etc for your perception of what you want to represent. You may call yourself a Bellydancer - but if you're doing things, or not doing things, that are not typical for bellydance - you will be policed no matter how famous you are or are not. Look at the BDSS threads and you'll see that "no one is safe" from being subject to public scrutiny when they put themselves performing in a public venue. Thats how we humans work. So do animals - monkeys smack each other over the back of the head when someone "misbehaves". So do we. Very simple. Not upset. Just telling you as a dancer of 25 years that has been repetitively corrected by mentors, teachers, instructors, peers, friends, family and even students. Again, not upset. Not hung up - just picky, precise, strict...

I may come off as harsh, but then I would like you to know that my reputation in the dance scene here is that I am picky, precise, strict and people that only hear of me and havent met me in person think I'm an old dirty outdated stuck up dancer with rigid narrow views... so for the record, I'm a 1980 model - but I have been dancing for 25 years this year... so it's not my age that's making me this blunt or abrupt. Just the urge to let you and everyone else that cross my path have the option of an even more fulfilling soulful experience of the dances we all love so much. I dont share to be condecending, I share to share. So, I'm not upset at all. In fact, Im glad you posted as you did - that gave us others the opportunity to give insight that will forever be available online to the whole world for eternity...

Art starts where common perception and ability to immediately grasp what is going on ends.

And if you didnt hear the latest news, the Arab dance police unit has been closed down... We dancers police, correct, adjust, educate and enhance ourselves well enough by ourselvevs to where the Elite Arab dance police unit was considered unnecessary and was therefore closed down. ..g.:

Much love in dance,
DaVid

Here's a Lebanese dancer that is including some Dabke inspired moves with her Assaya routine. Maybe that will give you some inspiration:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0SFcIfdz7w]YouTube - Lebanese Part I[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ubj_hjLdVc]YouTube - Lebanese Part II[/ame]

just for kicks I looked up Dabke Belly Dance on youtube and this clip came up:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjDRRyoIrUs]YouTube - Dabke Bellydance-Brazilian style[/ame]


and...oh my GoodneSSSS! Ah! Nadia Gamal!!!!! I LOVE NADIA - Major Score:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlMuLzGbJBA]YouTube - Nadia Gamal Zills and dabke with lebanese singer 1/2[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICE6zFjyQ8M]YouTube - Nadia Gamal Zills and dabke with lebanese singer 2/2[/ame]

David, I completely agree with you! :)

I'm not worried about the ethnic police. What bugs me is that I enjoy a certain style of music, but yet I'm not fully comfortable interpreting that music with my body.

Thanks for the tips and clips -- these really help!! :)

Originally Posted by aziyade

David, I completely agree with you! :)

I'm not worried about the ethnic police. What bugs me is that I enjoy a certain style of music, but yet I'm not fully comfortable interpreting that music with my body.

Thanks for the tips and clips -- these really help!! :)

Deleted, I posted the right answer to the wrong question on the wrong thread...Glad I could help though :)
here's the post in case someone's interested though

CANDI
I can understand how you would think that Dabke is a mans dance if you are basing your research on some dance groups. But being of Lebanese origin and having studied dabke seriously with some of the main dabke teachers and choreographers and I can tell you with 100% certainty that Dabke is not a dance for only men.

Because there is a general tendency among Middle Eastern people to frown upon women dancing, you will see many groups with male dancers. Or the men will have the more athletic dance parts. This also comes from the differences between the way men and women dance in general. Men are strong and rough so they dance that way, women are soft and feminine so thats how they dance.

Im sure if you look a little closer you will see that there are many dance groups who feature women Dabke dancer-Caracalla for example.

AZIYADE:
I grew up in a middle eastern nightclub during the 70's and 80's. I dont remember seeing dancers incorporate Dabke into their cabaret performances per se. Its more of the way dabke movements influence the dance (for example their is more of an accent on the up beat).

You can (and I do ) incorporate dabke movements into a cabaret piece if the music calls for it BUT you would do it in a more feminine way than if you were doing it in a circle dance! Its very much the way an Egyptian dancer might incorporate a little bit of saidi or khaleeji into their dance if the music calls for it.

Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I do teach a workshop in which I teach traditional Dabke, Dabke for the folklore stage and how to incorporate Dabke into a cabaret routine!!! Hopefully there'll be a video soon:)

Also its not a matter of the ETHNIC DANCE POLICE or whatever...

Its important to know the culture and history of ANY dance you are gonna do. THEN you can go and do what you want!!

Originally Posted by roxxanne

You can (and I do ) incorporate dabke movements into a cabaret piece if the music calls for it BUT you would do it in a more feminine way than if you were doing it in a circle dance! Its very much the way an Egyptian dancer might incorporate a little bit of saidi or khaleeji into their dance if the music calls for it.

Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I do teach a workshop in which I teach traditional Dabke, Dabke for the folklore stage and how to incorporate Dabke into a cabaret routine!!! Hopefully there'll be a video soon:)

Please keep us posted on that video! I have all the old George Abdo and Mohammed el Bakkar cds and I'd love to dance to some of that music on stage but I've never really felt like I quite understood it enough to really enjoy performing it.


Thanks!

I will thanks:)

Originally Posted by roxxanne

I will thanks:)

Hey R! Is it out yet? ..g.::zillevil: