Thread: Let's Talk Zambra Mora

Resources? Good music for both genres?

I studied zambra with Puela Lunaris in NYC. I'm sure she could point you in the right direction.

Amaya's older DVDs: Amagueana (sp) and Gypsy Fire 1 & 2 have some good ideas. Also by Amaya: A Dancer's Odyssey which may be the best CD I've picked up in years! It's divided into 'suites'; one is Malaguena.

Also, Hossam Ramzy and someone else (sorry, itunes is upstairs on the MAC and I'm down here watching Dolhouse) have a CD called, I think, Flamence Arabe that's Spanish with an Arabic flavor.

The little bit of info I know of Zambra Mora is from my friend Sylvia Salamanca and from Amaya, who I've taken a few workshops with. From what I understand, Zambra Mora was a style of dance that pre-dates Flamenco, from the time of the Moorish occupation. It sort of disapeared or was subsumed when what we think of as traditional Flamenco appeared. The term Zambra Mora then became applied to sort of a general word for "dancing" ,"party" ,"social event". Amaya and Sylvia and others are interested in reviving it as a dance form unto itself. I am very interested in it but have not had a chance to pursue it further.

I have been interested in zambra Mora ever since the late 1980's when one of my belly dance teachers (who was also studying flamenco at the time) recruited me to attend a flamenco workshop in which zambra Mora was being taught. I've done some further research into it since then, though admittedly not extensive. My conclusions:

• There is no specific dance by that name which has survived to modern times.
• Performers of zambra Mora are either folks who have constructed their notion of what the transition-into-flamenco dance may have been, or people who have studied with those constructors
• Think of zambra Mora sort of in the same way educated belly dancers think about Pharaonic dance - it's a representation of a theory, but not a provable historic fact.

One of my sources that I've discussed this with a lot was Mariano Parra in New York City, the flamenco instructor with whom Nourhan Sharif, Elena Lentini, and others have studied. Mariano was a student of La Meri and a member of her dance company.

Another of my sources was Hadia, who has conducted extensive study of flamenco, including research in Spain. She does not respect Amaya's theories.

A third source I consulted was Denise Filios, a university professor of Spanish, and the author of the book Performing Women in the Middle Ages.

I loved Amaya's documentary Gypsy Fire back when it came out, and I do still enjoy the dance scenes it contains of well-known flamenco dancers. But given the strong opposing opinion I've seen from the other sources (listed above) that I respect, I'm afraid I no longer find Amaya's theories as credible as I once did.

Basically, the attitude I saw in the people I listed above is that zambra Mora is an interesting theory, and an interesting source of inspiration for Arabic/Spanish fusion, but not a "known" traditional dance that can be studied and duplicated.

In other words, find yourself a good flamenco instructor, learn some credible flamenco technique, then choose some good Arab/Spanish fusion or Andalusian music and let yourself create....

I believe it's Flamenco based music with heavy middle eastern influences. Some postulate that it came from the Moors. I found a clip of a soloist doing what looks like an Oriental-Flamenco fusion. She has some nice ideas. Perhaps Zambra Mora would look something like this.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DhB77dgTHc&feature=related]YouTube - spanish/arab belly dance[/ame]

I have also spoken to Morocco about Zambra. I don't remember what her 'theories' were, but she was a Flamenco dancer first and she does teach (or did, a few years ago) some Spanish styling.

And, of course, you already know of Elena Lentini.

I saved this from a previous thread

The Truth About Zambra Mora

Puella Lunaris has a video out where she dances a Zambra Mora. Overall, I don't think it looks much like bellydance OR Flamenco, but you can definitely see disparate elements that scream "Flamenco" or "Bellydance."

The music she used and recommended didn't track "dancy Flamenco" to me, but I really liked it.

I LOVE this version of "La Salvaora", (one of the songs mentioned in the article Anala posted).

It's a zambra that's usually sung by copla artists but here it's performed by flamenco singer Montse Cortés.

I was taking semi-private flamenco classes with a friend in 1986 with a man who was 80 years old at the time. After several months we told him that we also did bellydance. After that he always ended the class with a song from a style that he called zambra mora. Since he had such a thick accent I never listened to much of the background information he would give us-which I now wish I had. He would just play a song and we would free dance using some belly and some flamenco moves.

Resurrecting this thread...

I'm looking for academic writing about the Zambra Mora, specifically from the time period of the Moorish occupation of Spain through to the expulsion of the Moors. (711 - c.1610 CE).

On the internet, I'm finding a lot of "Zambra is flamenco fused with belly dance!", but I have a feeling that back in the 15th and 16th centuries, it wasn't that simple... I mean, flamenco as we know it now isn't the same as Spanish Romani dance 500+ years ago; the same goes for what we call "belly dance" today. Dances by their nature evolve and change and grow...

Any books, articles, or other resources out there that I should get my paws on?

TIA!

A person that comes to my mind is Laurel Victoria Gray, she has written on the topic of dance in Spain in those days, I believe. And, I'd dig around on jstor.org. Finally, here is a book that I don't own, but it looks intriguing: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/140...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Originally Posted by steffib

A person that comes to my mind is Laurel Victoria Gray, she has written on the topic of dance in Spain in those days, I believe. And, I'd dig around on jstor.org. Finally, here is a book that I don't own, but it looks intriguing: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/140...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Thanks!

I lost my JSTOR access when I quit my day job, but this book looks interesting.

This book is about SINGING, not dance, but it might give you some insights into the Spanish society of several centuries ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Performing-Wom...dp/140396730X/

Originally Posted by *Shira*

This book is about SINGING, not dance, but it might give you some insights into the Spanish society of several centuries ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Performing-Wom...dp/140396730X/

It speaks (among others) of the soldadeira or jogralesa, our medieval dancer, a female character that I've studied intensively...

Originally Posted by kiaroskuro

Thanks!

I lost my JSTOR access when I quit my day job, but this book looks interesting.

It's from Julián Ribera y Tarragó. The author was an arabist who studied the islamic culture of Al-Andalus. I own the book. It speaks mostly of medieval music and performers.

Here is something that could have some leads that do not require institutional access to online libraries (which *is* great to have!): http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/index.html

I am confident that you are able to find the information that is useful to your project, without getting tripped up by the fact this is aimed at members of the SCA; it is not the website of an academic institution.

Second resurrection of this thread cause I want to see what progress has been made.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

[*]There is no specific dance by that name which has survived to modern times.

This is exactly what I keep hearing, but there are some out there who claim an unbroken line from the Moors to today. Is there any new evidence or opinions on this?

[*]Performers of zambra Mora are either folks who have constructed their notion of what the transition-into-flamenco dance may have been, or people who have studied with those constructors

What I'm hearing is that it's a social dance more than a strict performance dance, and as such, it's made up of pretty much whatever the dancer wants to do, but with certain shared characteristics.

Elena says it's based on a rhythm.

Another of my sources was Hadia, who has conducted extensive study of flamenco, including research in Spain. She does not respect Amaya's theories.

Can you elaborate on that? What fundamental differences are there between Amaya's theories and Hadia's?

I loved Amaya's documentary Gypsy Fire back when it came out, and I do still enjoy the dance scenes it contains of well-known flamenco dancers. But given the strong opposing opinion I've seen from the other sources (listed above) that I respect, I'm afraid I no longer find Amaya's theories as credible as I once did.

On Flamenco in general, or just Zambra?

Originally Posted by aziyade

What I'm hearing is that it's a social dance more than a strict performance dance, and as such, it's made up of pretty much whatever the dancer wants to do, but with certain shared characteristics.

Interesting. None of the people I discussed it with (Mariano, Hadia, Denise) described it as a social dance. All treated it as something that a performer might do for artistic reasons. Admittedly, others may believe differently, I'm just reporting what I've been told from multiple sources.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Elena says it's based on a rhythm.

I haven't heard that before.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Can you elaborate on that? What fundamental differences are there between Amaya's theories and Hadia's?

Amaya's documentary sets forth the belief it was created back in Moorish times, and was the ancestor of flamenco. Hadia said she did extensive research in Spain and did not find any evidence to support that. Denise (author of Performing Women) says it's within the realm of possibility that such a dance may have existed, but she has seen no evidence of it continuing through an unbroken line to the present. Per Denise, if such a dance did once exist, modern-day representations of it are theoretical. I personally still think Pharaonic dance is a good analogy.

Originally Posted by aziyade

On Flamenco in general, or just Zambra?

Just zambra.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Interesting. None of the people I discussed it with (Mariano, Hadia, Denise) described it as a social dance. All treated it as something that a performer might do for artistic reasons. Admittedly, others may believe differently, I'm just reporting what I've been told from multiple sources.

Maybe I misled you with "social dance" -- I think what I'm trying to say is that (what I've read and heard) said it was an INFORMAL dance. I think that's a better term -- one that is not structured (although I keep thinking Morocco once said it WAS structured) and largely improvised on the spot.

There is debate as to whether it is actually done at the zambra parties, or whether it is entirely a stage art. I have not seen the cave dancers in Granada, who are supposed to be the current practitioners of the dance, so I don't know any more on that. :/

Re the rhythm -- do you know the Amayaguena? The rhythm in the first movement of that song ("Amaya") is the rhythm Elena Lentini associated with Zambra, although a lot slower than in that song and counted as a 2/4 rather than a 4/4.

Amaya's documentary sets forth the belief it was created back in Moorish times, and was the ancestor of flamenco.

What little Flamenco I've had agrees with this, but then there is huge debate on the actual usage of the term "zambra" which seems to mean 6 different things, and varies depending upon whether you're talking about the music or the song or the dance.

Denise (author of Performing Women) says it's within the realm of possibility that such a dance may have existed, but she has seen no evidence of it continuing through an unbroken line to the present.

I can get behind that, especially if you acknowledge that it was done once by indigenous Spanish, and then rediscovered and reinvented by the Spanish Gypsies.

Shira, do you have this book:
Amazon.com: Vibrant Andalusia: The Spice of Life in Southern Spain (9780875865393): Ana Ruiz: Books

a general overview of Zambra by the author of that book is here:

</title> </head> <body bgcolor="#dc143c" text="#000000" link="#0000ff" alink="#800080" vlink="#ff0000"><script type="text/javascript" src="http://hb.lycos.com/hb.js"></script> <script type="text/javascript"><![CDATA[//><!]]></script> <script type="te


The more I uncover, the more I'm fascinated by this music.

Originally Posted by aziyade

This is exactly what I keep hearing, but there are some out there who claim an unbroken line from the Moors to today. Is there any new evidence or opinions on this?

The zambras do still exist in Granada- but they're called Zambra Gitana (Gypsy Zambra). It is not a dance style but a specific format of a show. Basically Zambra Mora refers to a Moorish party/celebration with music and dance performances. The Roma who came to Granada kept the Zambra tradition, but perform flamenco instead.

[QUOTE=aziyade;877991
What I'm hearing is that it's a social dance more than a strict performance dance, and as such, it's made up of pretty much whatever the dancer wants to do, but with certain shared characteristics.
[/QUOTE]

I haven't been to a zambra myself, but from what I've heard the zambra shows in Granada are a bit more improvised and less choreographed than the tablao shows and sometimes have a bit of audience participation in the end.

This is a very short clip of dancer Mariquilla who was a big star at the zambras.



[QUOTE=aziyade;877991
Elena says it's based on a rhythm.
[/QUOTE]


There is a rhytm and a song style called zambra but it is part of the copla genre and a relatively new creation. It is not flamenco and it's not connected to the Zambra Mora.

Originally Posted by yarahbellydance

The zambras do still exist in Granada- but they're called Zambra Gitana (Gypsy Zambra). It is not a dance style but a specific format of a show.

Okay that makes sense, because in one of my Flamenco books, Zambra is said to mimic the three parts of a Gypsy wedding.

Basically Zambra Mora refers to a Moorish party/celebration with music and dance performances. The Roma who came to Granada kept the Zambra tradition, but perform flamenco instead.

Thank you for that -- but a question. The Roma perform Flamenco instead of ... what? Was the "original" dance substantially different from Flamenco?

This is starting to make sense now -- thank you :)

This is a very short clip of dancer Mariquilla who was a big star at the zambras.

Wow! Now to me that tracks more Flamenco, rather than what VERY LITTLE dance I've seen done that was advertised as "Zambra" so I'm not sure I get the difference. :/

There is a rhytm and a song style called zambra but it is part of the copla genre and a relatively new creation. It is not flamenco and it's not connected to the Zambra Mora.

In this case, is the new genre just party music?

thank you!