Thread: What makes it Shaabi? Discuss!!

Originally Posted by bellydancewear

Yes this is a good question. When my troupe did shaaby we wore stage-style galibayas. We were doing Saiidi at the same performances so we wore a folkloric style costume that seemed to work well for both styles.

So something like this might work

Beautiful Laura, yeah something like that is what we wore (except without the open front). Afterall, shaaby is a form of folkloric dance and I have heard in Egypt that you shoiuld wear a galabaya when you perform it. But of course I dance to shaaby and saiidi songs when I perform at the restaurants wearing my fancy lycra costumes, because it is part of a set and no time for costume changes.

Originally Posted by bellydancewear

But of course I dance to shaaby and saiidi songs when I perform at the restaurants wearing my fancy lycra costumes, because it is part of a set and no time for costume changes.

Oh yes, that totally makes sense, when it's part of a multi-song set.

Thanks for the help - I've been wanting to wear that costume again, but haven't come up with the right piece for it yet. Looks like a shabbi one might be just the thing to get it out of the closet again.

Originally Posted by katja

Maybe we have a different way of categorizing dance in US and Europe but beledi and shaabi are way different styles to me. Similar and I would say both shaabi music and dance derive from beledi, but they are still different styles.

I guess I just see them as more of a difference of degree rather than a difference of kind. "Sha'abi dance," if we want to define it as a separate style, is rougher-edged, sexier, etc. because it's reflecting the sha'abi music.

When you talk to the ordinary "Arab on the street," sha'abi means music more than it means dance. The dance community is its own world in a lot of ways, and I think it's only in the dance community that you get this finer distinction between "beledi" vs. "sha'abi" dancing. To the non-dancer, it's just "belly dance" to sha'abi music, or maybe "beledi."

I personally find it useful as a dancer to make the distinction between more "beledi" style dance vs. more "sha'abi" style dance, but I think sometimes that because as non-Arab dancers we need names and categories for these things (for our own learning and understanding), that we make some of these types and categories more "real" and concrete than they actually are.

There was another thread somewhere where NandaDancer and I were chatting about this very issue, but I can't seem to find it...

Originally Posted by emma-bessa

Haha,
yes I was there(my brother in law was singing for Dandash)and loved both her and Aidas confidence and juicy moves!
Can you imagine how shellshocked some of my fellow Hilal students was?

Haha, yes, I remember their faces. I was there! lol

Originally Posted by bintelbeled

Dandash is still doing fish faces? That cracked me up when I saw her in 2000.

Well, this was probably in 2002...Last time I saw Dandash here in LA in 2005 (?) and on the Farha Tour videos she didnt do those faces. I would imagine that she's neutralized the raw, hardcore, unpolished street shaabi feel to her dancing a bit...;) I love her either way.

Katja and David, would either of you caterogize this performance from Orit as Shaabi?

This video is what sparked this entire thread. Someone in the comments said it was a good shaabi dance and I had to ask for opinions.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT1Ny14ABBM&feature=channel_page]YouTube - Orit show in Korea- bellydance to "Fakerni"[/ame]

Originally Posted by laura 2

Oooo, this thread brings up a question I've been pondering. For female dancers, what kind of costuming so you think is best for a shabbi performance? It seems kind of a disconnect to do a street-style shabbi in an elegant costume - sort of like doing hip-hop in a ballroom gown.

Laura, to me - it depends on what feel your stage persona, choreography and vision has.

If you're doing a Shaabi to let say one of the "bimbette" sounding female singers' songs that are around these days - you could totally get away with high boots, a miniskirt in leather, a shirt tied under your bra and a ballcap on your head (with staging elements such as rhinestones, beadwork etc on).

If you're dancing to Adawaya - you could totally do a 70s theme jumpsuit.

If you're going for the earthy balady feel and look and Fifi's deep voice as part of the character you're portraying - a galabaya could be uuuber sexy.

If you're going for "Valley Girl does Shaabi" you could wear what they wear.

Shaabi is a character dance just as much as it's a "fusion of folkdance influences before we move onto Reda stylization for stage and end up getting Dina", if you know what I mean.

Here are some random shots as food for thought:

Wow, that's a lot of ideas! Thanks, David!

As long as you dont throw yourself out of your costume you're fine. You adapt your presentation to what you wear or the other way around. If you're in a mini skirt and heels you're not going to squat out and be all knees apart, right? UNLESS, you're incorporating it as a phun ;)


I recommend http://www.bestbellydancechicago.com...e/FifiAbdo.jpg for Shaabi reference. Fifi does 3 sets on the end of the DVD that each bring a different stylization/expression/feel to the stage. Balady, Street and Nightclub.

YES, that clip of Orit is Shaabi. It's very much her attitude, gestures and low center that brings the Shaabi feel to this performance. It's important to remember that when a dancer of Orit's caliber tours - she has to represent a holistic presentation of her ability... quite often you just dont have the privilage to go 100% street shaabi in one of your 3 performances (Orientale, Oum K, folklore). She does a great representation of the style while keeping the "flow" of a show and her folklore "section" here.

Of course, me being me - I have the best time ever when someone goes totally Lena Helt or Fifi Abdou naughty on stage. ;) But that's just the naughty boy in me I guess.

Originally Posted by laura 2

Wow, that's a lot of ideas! Thanks, David!

Laura - my pleasure! But dont thank me, thank my teachers .) I'm just giving it forward. What bugs me most of the time is that everyone that does shaabi either sticks themselves in a galabaya or a melaya leff dress...and cant identify with the character that those garments bring along with them. Id rather see someone in that get up on the punky looking pic, identify with the character and dance it well - than see someone trying to be all "Ana bint el balady wa shaabi ooooo aiiii" and not connect with it.

Each person has to bring their own flavor. For a while my big hobby was to get any given Egyptian dancer I met to dance me a little "shaabi" and I would clap my hands in thrill when they'd humor me (many were reluctant, in fact). I got SO many different takes - it was really fun and it made me realize that Shaabi isn't one homenous style you can just pin down by saying "big hipwork, balady undulations, flamboyant hand gestures, attitude to Hakims newest hit".

Originally Posted by david

Id rather see someone in that get up on the punky looking pic, identify with the character and dance it well

I'm not volunteering to dance in those heels, though! ..l;,

I like the sexy black mini skirt look myself. I would like to do shaaby in something like that, but it would have to be a solo, not a troupe performance.
And I agree David, that bringing out a character is important, and that is the 'fun' part of shaaby. Afterall, it is a dance of the common people and they wear street clothes/club clothes when they dance it.
And I have to add, my only problem with classifying that clip as shaaby is the song itself, not a shaaby song. It is from a Lebanese artist about a man/relationship. Not a song about daily life in Egypt. Shaaby is more about the music than the moves, of course her moves and expression could be considered shaaby but not the song in my opinion.

Originally Posted by bellydancewear

I like the sexy black mini skirt look myself. I would like to do shaaby in something like that, but it would have to be a solo, not a troupe performance.
And I agree David, that bringing out a character is important, and that is the 'fun' part of shaaby. Afterall, it is a dance of the common people and they wear street clothes/club clothes when they dance it.
And I have to add, my only problem with classifying that clip as shaaby is the song itself, not a shaaby song. It is from a Lebanese artist about a man/relationship. Not a song about daily life in Egypt. Shaaby is more about the music than the moves, of course her moves and expression could be considered shaaby but not the song in my opinion.

Ok, you're on. I'll be looking forward to a demo of raw version of the performance next time I see you LOL

An observation in regard to music from the ME.... A LOT of the artists sing "Egyptian" songs... even if they're not Egyptian. They sing in Egyptian dialect, mimic Egyptian ways of wording things in the lyrics and emulate the voice modulation and such in the Egyptian way of singing, speaking and acting (body language, social behavior etc) in their music videos. While I totally see your point about the singer being Lebanese - the original song may be Egyptian... or the dialect she's singing in might be Egyptian... I'd have to harrass my Saudi linguistics resource for more information whom has a soft spot for Egyptian linguistics and will go out of his way to explain WHY it's Egyptian. LOL. Took me a long time to get this, but I guess it's like Diana Haddad singing Khaleegi....Celine Dion singing in English. Shakira singing in English.... just that the linguistic difference isn't as obvious to the naked non-Arabic adapted ear....

To make things even more complicated... A Lebanese singer singing in Egyptian may have a Lebanese ACCENT on top of the Egyptian dialect wording...

I know you've got one up on some of us and understand quite a lot of Arabic - so if the point you were making was that she's also singing in Lebanese, I get it. :) Just wanted to point out the dilemma for everyone else too.

DaVid

Hi,

Not to show my ignorance but is Fatme Serhan considered Shaabi? I'm specifically thinking of "Ala Warag Il Foull." The lyrics seem very ....um, sassy to put it mildly!

I would call her a shaabi singer, yes.

Originally Posted by Tauremorna

Hi,

Not to show my ignorance but is Fatme Serhan considered Shaabi? I'm specifically thinking of "Ala Warag Il Foull." The lyrics seem very ....um, sassy to put it mildly!

Oh, that's a fun discussion - especially with Egyptians that coin Shaabi - Jeel - as "bad music" and Balady as cultural heritage....

I would say it's open for interpretation. Fatme Serhan's music is a reflection of culture and cultural expression of poetry, vocal arts and music before it's even Shaabi, Balady or whatever style we would fit it to dance wise. Though, Egyptians would call her Balady because her songs make them homesick and have a lineage in the Egyptian folklore heritage through the poetry, vocal arts, instrumentation and expression.

I dont think Hakim's Eyoono Nar (shafayfo nar, khododo wardi ti - my eyes are on fire, my lips are on fire, my cheeks are blooming too - ISH-ish translation - to then go into describing how he/she cant sleep all night before singing "Raqas Yallah" - lets dance!)... would be considered Egyptian folkloric heritage....but that could just be my naughty way of hearing the song.

Thank you to Lena for the Eyoono Nar explanation back in the day ;)

Ok, so I was on the Cabaret Debke tread - aziyade posted an observation in regard to "understanding" but having a hard time executing...and I in my head replied as if she was talking about Shaabi!... so I am moving my reply to this thread - as I dont think Lebanese style dancers would benefit much from the post in regard to what that thread is about....(dont ask me how I got that mixed up, I have no clue)

Originally Posted by aziyade

David, I completely agree with you! :)

I'm not worried about the ethnic police. What bugs me is that I enjoy a certain style of music, but yet I'm not fully comfortable interpreting that music with my body.

Thanks for the tips and clips -- these really help!! :)

Lol, let me share a secret. Anytime I get all cocky and I'm like thinking to myself "eeeh, I got this dooown, I'm sooo shaabi...man, even shaabi herself could learn a couple of things from me. Try to stop me now"....I think of Lena and Fifi dancing shaabi and my whole big-headedness fades into "oh god, I'm never going to be comfortable enough to pull it THAT far without feeling weird and looking akward".

The best trick is, in my humble personal experience - and not necessarily a trick that would work for everyone - is to dance it as "naughty", grounded and relaxed as you can within the technique of Egyptian style to losen up your mind, body and approach... THEN you start practicing your performance material 1/2 way through the practice and attempt the Shaabi feeling. It's not a perfect solution, but it helps a tidbit.

Most dancers in Egypt wont OPEN their show with a Shaabi....you open with an Orientale, then Oum K, then folklore, then drumsolo, then shaabi for example. You're not just warming up the audience, you're also warming up yourself for the powerhouse effort behind the projection and attitude needed for Shaabi. Katja, wouldnt you agree? (Katja, I hereby pronnounce you my lifeline to Lena in addition to being a great dancer yourself lol).

Michelle, thank you for posting that clip of Orit. It's the best I've ever seen of her. The style suits her character perfectly, I like her much better in this than in Raks Sharqi, because she loves to tease and be sexy and so. Now really I am in the mood to learn that shaabi thing of her she is so much fun there.

can someone please explain what the term "orientale" means when it comes to repertoire - since Oum K. and folklore will be oriental, too, I don't quite understand the category meant by it.

What do you all think of Najla's interpretation (Slovakian dancer)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKw2_Rwelzc]YouTube - Najla Egyptian belly dance رقص شرقي - Shaabi El toto naye[/ame]

Originally Posted by Nouria

can someone please explain what the term "orientale" means when it comes to repertoire - since Oum K. and folklore will be oriental, too, I don't quite understand the category meant by it.

aaaah, that was me that used that distinction.
Orientale - presentation - classic non-folk technique - often used in magensi /entrance pieces (I have no clue how the Egyptians intend that to be spelled - whether it's suppose to be in French or if it's suppose to be an Egypt-ified version of it - but it is used in reference to the first piece the dancer comes out to - often composed for her/him - and is kind of like a marketing tool. People hear it and go OMG it's so and so dancer). Dancer conveys her integrity as a performer by presenting herself to the audience. Generally danced with a higher center.

Oum Kulthoum - specific musical pieces. dancer conveys her linguistic skills and understanding for the depth of the poetry of Oum K's lyrics and thus projects the depth and beauty of the lyrics through her movement and body and gestures. Dancer varies between high and low center as an effect to show depth in her dancing. ALSO (!) includes parts with set combinations/interpretations to the music/of the lyrics based on what either Suheir Zaki or other FAMOUS dancers have expressed before us.
If you do not hit these milestones in the music/lyrics you'll get the reaction I got the first time I danced an Oum K before an audience "oh that looks sooo nice, look at the emotion...ooooh noo, he missed that one.. aah still pretty though... oh no, he missed that one and that one and THAT one too....oh, it was a nice attempt, he'll grow into it"....hmpfr... and I thought waiting for 5 years wile working on my dancing before I allowed myself onstage to an Oum K would do it...nobody told me anything about the milestones! argh

Folklore - Balady, Shaabi, Saiidi, Hagallah, Nuba, Khaleegi etc. The dancer may come out in a folk costume and use mainly a folk movement vocabulary, mode of communcation and body language OR mix and match. BUT the dancing is totally different and much more low center than high. (this is where most dancers go HUH??? and just do sharki in a folk costume).

Does that help?

Originally Posted by Nouria

What do you all think of Najla's interpretation (Slovakian dancer)

YouTube - Najla Egyptian belly dance رقص شرقي - Shaabi El toto naye

Well, since she's not asking herself and she's not actively seeking a performance critique on Bhuz in the public realm. Nor is she here to share insight to her interpretation.... I am going to say, I like her dancing, she is entertaining, she has life spirit. Nice job at dancing the song.

Soooo, say hypothetically , a someone wanted to do a shabbi piece to El Enab at a workshop showcase. Say the dancer has an announced intro explaining briefly what shabbi is, and that the song "is about grapes...or is it?" The dancer then enters the stage during the intro part, eating from a a bunch of [fake] grapes, then tosses them cheekily before beginning her dance.

The intention is that the grapes are a nod to those few audience members who may be "in the know" about El Enab's lyrics, but the rest of the audience won't be all "WTF?" because of the intro.

BUT, because it's a guy singing about the, uh, grapes, would it be weird for a female performer to eat them? Or does the whole idea sound too naughty, even for shabbi? Or just stupid?

Hypothetically, you understand. .w.:

Originally Posted by david

Oum Kulthoum - specific musical pieces. dancer conveys her linguistic skills and understanding for the depth of the poetry of Oum K's lyrics and thus projects the depth and beauty of the lyrics through her movement and body and gestures. Dancer varies between high and low center as an effect to show depth in her dancing. ALSO (!) includes parts with set combinations/interpretations to the music/of the lyrics based on what either Suheir Zaki or other FAMOUS dancers have expressed before us.
If you do not hit these milestones in the music/lyrics you'll get the reaction I got the first time I danced an Oum K before an audience "oh that looks sooo nice, look at the emotion...ooooh noo, he missed that one.. aah still pretty though... oh no, he missed that one and that one and THAT one too....oh, it was a nice attempt, he'll grow into it"....hmpfr... and I thought waiting for 5 years wile working on my dancing before I allowed myself onstage to an Oum K would do it...nobody told me anything about the milestones! argh

Not to change topics from sha'abi, but how do you know the milestones from just regular dancing when watching, say, Souhair dance to it?

Originally Posted by laura 2

Soooo, say hypothetically , a someone wanted to do a shabbi piece to El Enab at a workshop showcase. Say the dancer has an announced intro explaining briefly what shabbi is, and that the song "is about grapes...or is it?" The dancer then enters the stage during the intro part, eating from a a bunch of [fake] grapes, then tosses them cheekily before beginning her dance.

The intention is that the grapes are a nod to those few audience members who may be "in the know" about El Enab's lyrics, but the rest of the audience won't be all "WTF?" because of the intro.

BUT, because it's a guy singing about the, uh, grapes, would it be weird for a female performer to eat them? Or does the whole idea sound too naughty, even for shabbi? Or just stupid?

Hypothetically, you understand. .w.:

Why toss the grapes, I ask.... keep them in your hand for an energy boost later in the song lol. The idea isnt too naughty or stupid! It's wonderful. You could even go hand a grape or two to people in the audience - that'll work around any "discomfort" you feel in regard to eating grapes on stage. Shaabi is about playing with people's mind. They see what they think, and they think what they see - but what did they really see?

And, as long as YOUR intent isnt to be all like -ooooh Im eating grapes, what are you wearing? - then it's all in the audience's heads if they read it weirdly. I honestly live for moments where dancers push the mental perception of the audience and introduce the audience to their true inner self *evil grin*

I mean, HOW uncomfortable couldnt it be when someone dances the manga song?....If we view it that way. But we dont. do we?

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Not to change topics from sha'abi, but how do you know the milestones from just regular dancing when watching, say, Souhair dance to it?

Nepenthe: thank you for asking and not to stay on a topic different than shaabi - but here's my reply lol.

I identify the milestones by getting a translation of the song first, THEN I watch as many as possible dancers from any country dance the song in question. I compare what gestures, intents, parts are similar with extra points if Suhair did it too. So, I go by quantitative measures.... It's probably a better way to do it - like flying to Egypt and have Raqia or Aida or Suhair choreograph it for you lol....but this is what I do.

The beauty of the "milestones" is that if you hit some of them - they open a door for you to NOT have to aknowledge alll the others... you already showed that you are aware of them and the timing/placement of them in relation to the music in your performance.

Now you may ask WHO the heck would notice...well, that ONE elderly Arabic man that's there with his daughter's family will... and that's enough for me to make it important enough to pay attention to. If I can warm the heart of an elderly by hitting 2 milestones in my dancing (when they've probably seen enough already)...I've done my job.

Originally Posted by david

Most dancers in Egypt wont OPEN their show with a Shaabi....you open with an Orientale, then Oum K, then folklore, then drumsolo, then shaabi for example. You're not just warming up the audience, you're also warming up yourself for the powerhouse effort behind the projection and attitude needed for Shaabi. Katja, wouldnt you agree? (Katja, I hereby pronnounce you my lifeline to Lena in addition to being a great dancer yourself lol).

*lol* DaVid I agree, to pull of a shaabi as your opening number can be a bit difficult. If I perform a multisong set I always do the shaabi part last when the audience and myself is properly warmed up ..l;,

Now this is shaabi! Good ol' down and dirty music for the common people of Egypt.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWJumMXwl_o&feature=related]YouTube - Saad El-Saghir & Bellydancer Dina - El-Enab[/ame]

Originally Posted by david

Well, since she's not asking herself and she's not actively seeking a performance critique on Bhuz in the public realm. Nor is she here to share insight to her interpretation.... I am going to say, I like her dancing, she is entertaining, she has life spirit. Nice job at dancing the song.

So maybe my question is not correct? I like Najla but now if I seek for what is shaabi real cool shaabi I wanted to know if she hit the nail on the head and I can look at her clip as good example of Egyptian shaabi. When dancing raks she sometimes mixes Egyptian style with American cabaret, before I was able to distinguish I used to think that she was pure Egyptian because she is so earthy.

Originally Posted by Nouria

So maybe my question is not correct? I like Najla but now if I seek for what is shaabi real cool shaabi I wanted to know if she hit the nail on the head and I can look at her clip as good example of Egyptian shaabi. When dancing raks she sometimes mixes Egyptian style with American cabaret, before I was able to distinguish I used to think that she was pure Egyptian because she is so earthy.

Ok, I will see how I can express this in writing without my facial interaction and gestures and intonation and not sound like I'm being a "besservisser" (Norwegian expression for know-it-all + a pinch of arrogance to it).

I think she does a nice entertaining performance. At no point did I feel like I had to worry that she was going to do something corny or lose her focus/projection. I see great technical features, quality of flow and emotional projection.

Although, after having seen Najla's other clips for comparison, Najla is more grounded compared to how she would otherwise dance - I feel that her center is more towards the bottom of the second "ab" in the sixpack, rather than in between her hipbones. This brings a different quality to her presentation than if her center was even lower. Not wrong, just different. I like her genuine projection - I can feel that she's loving the dance and projecting this in her dancing. I feel a tickle in my tummy too (read: triggers feeling of love for the dance in my solar plexus).

So, Najla, if you read this - great job!

Shaabi reflects who you are as a character, dancer, persona - so, it's VERY individual what the result is. Of course, having watched Fifi and studied with Lena - I go "kreeezi for jooo" if you are really deeply grounded and almost "naughty" in the internal placement of the center. I do however, see some great interpretations with a higher center too.

For the record:
* High center - more upward energy (more upward intent in body - hips - arms - face - chest)
* Low center - more downward energy (more downward intent in the body - hips - arms - face - chest).

To me personally - I try to identify it with what history the character has. The totally low centered - maybe uneducated, had a physically strenous life, loves life and projects that rural, earthy feel
The totally high centered - maybe well educated, had a physically at ease life, loves life and projects an academic feel (academic might be the wrong word but "sophisticated/educated/experienced/wordly" arent the flavors I am looking for either).

Hope that helps, Nuria.

Originally Posted by bellydancewear

Now this is shaabi! Good ol' down and dirty music for the common people of Egypt.

Yes well that reminds me of the Cuban thing. If you got "it", the mood and the rhythm and the general moves you can't do anything wrong, you just fool along with the music as everbody does, some more crazy and creative, others more minimalistic.

Ok but I liked Orit, dancewise I thought it was much more interesting than the Dina-Saad thing.

Thank you David for your explanations, you really took your time. Well then Dina can't be so educated, now, can she, seeing that she has such a low center, she lifts her arms like she is drowning bc of the weight of her hips that pulls her down
Actually I think you put it quite well and I also can see what you mean.