Thread: Can men bellydance ? :Hilarious debate

This is quite funny. A short video of a pretty fine male dancer with truly daft historical perspective over the top.

And then a debate. It's hysterical, the woman who is the principal talker is Wendy Buonaventura's lebanese counterpart (probably did the history bit too)talking complete garbage about male dancers as all being transvestite, despite the evidence to the contrary.

"I couldn't teach a man for $1000 an hour"

http://www.yalibnan.com/site/tv/2007...the_raging.php

h/t Gilded Serpent

Man! She doesn't shut-up, does she? The program host needs to do her job better, maybe just walk over and slap her out of her tyrade! As for the subject matter, well, what can ya say? He looks pretty good, but whenever someone claims to be the "best" at anything it's an immediate put-off for me. There's no such animal.

Some women can dance, some can't, some men can dance, others can't. It's not gender specific and, frankly, I think men and women look totally different when they dance anyway. Personally, I prefer to watch men doing the cane dance. There's a power there that women just don't have. But then when it comes to soft and subtle, I prefer the look of that on female dancers.

...I hardly know where to begin...

The guy reminds me a bit of my own philosophy of dance, esp. in clothing. I still prefer to rock out in jeans and a t-shirt over anything I've developed or seen over the years in terms of male dancer garb.

The voice-over just annoyed. The history is specious, and the commentary was crazy -- the guy's good, but better than, say, Dina? Pshaw. And don't get me started on the history.

The female commentator should apply to be the Lebanese commentator for BillO. Her inability to see past the current structure to how that structure was built in the past, and might change in the future says it all. And the fact that she talks over everyone else says the rest.

Ugh. Poor bastard.

I didn't get a chance to see Alaa when I was in Beirut but I did meet another male dancer by the name of Youssef, not quite as well-known as Mosbah or Alaa but he should be getting up there if the current situation stablizes.

I actually enjoyed the voice over stuff. Then again, I do have a basic understanding of Arabic and it's fun trying to see how much I can understand.

This woman is obviously a petty idiot. But lots of people in the Arab World would agree with her. But mind you, in Beirut at least it's liberal enough for male dancers to exist. Tito, works in Sharm el Sheik because it's a liberal resort town in Egypt. Thank god things are changing perception wise.

Unfortunately Asim, most Arabs could care less on the history of the dance and it's always be assumed that this dance was originally done by women even though that's not the case.

Hey, I have seen Alaa! I even have him on video. He's quite good, though a bit hectic at times.

I loved the bit "though fully clothed he attracts more attention than the female dancers who wear nothing" ..l;,

"the slaughtered bird dances in pain" .w.: My goodness, who comes up with BS like that???

And than this nutter goes like "you can't have a male dancer at a classy party" when we have all sean video clips of slutty female dancers at "classy" parties... As if the gender makes the class!

It reminds me a bit of when men fought against women who wanted the right to vote. They are afraid that something could be taken away from them.
Maybe this woman is afraid to loose dance gigs to a man?

And she constantly talks about a man dancing in female clothing when that's exactly what the male dancers in Lebanon are NOT doing! They all (as far as I have seen) dance in pants and t-shirts.



MEISSOUN

Wow! That was hard to watch. Some minds just don't want to open to new (and not so new) ideas.
I don't get it- it's the ultimate in equal rights: men can appreciate the female form while we dance (and any gender preference variation in between)- why not women have similar opportunities? Alaa is pretty easy on the eyes...

I want the 1000.00 per hour!! Where is he?

I just love how the male bellydancer is introduced as 'a man in the full sense of the word.'

Originally Posted by meissoun

"the slaughtered bird dances in pain" .w.: My goodness, who comes up with BS like that???
MEISSOUN

no kidding. as if we needed any further confirmation that whoever wrote that is nuts. that was one serious WTF?

i'm with the commentator that i don't like men in bedlah, but that's not the situation, so it's moot.
i do prefer men to do the male traditional dances, b/c i can see sharqi anywhere, but who can do tahtib?

there's a couple who go to Wahibs, i can't remember where she's from, but he's from Kuwait or Saudi - oh man oh man can he dance. she's super but he's ab fab. when they get up to dance, i'll sit out so i can watch them.

I had the impression that above all she dislikes the idea of a man dancing "in drag", but yes, against a background of a general dislike of man dancing at all (as you can hear in the story about the man wanting classes). the not wanting to teach the husband i find really strange as surely she must be familiar with men dancing socially at parties (not as the performer)...

added to clarify: i can understand her not liking the idea of drag bellydancer, but the fact that she doesnt want to teach the husband does indeed show it's more than that.

further, i think it's a edited documentary, so we only hear her talk, pitty, would be interesting to see the whole thing actually...

[QUOTE=artemisia_danst;34886]but yes, against a background of a general dislike of man dancing at all (as you can hear in the story about the man wanting classes). the not wantiong to teach the husbad in find really strange as surely she must be familiar with men dancing socially at parties (not as the performer)...
QUOTE]

But you have close friends who are emphatic in their detestation of the idea of teaching men (and you know who I'm referring to). why don't you ask them what their problem really is ?

Helen, i've said it before, i'd prefer you'd keep me out of your problems with said friend, as to ensure i can stay friends with the both of you. i have close friends with very different political views as well, and they manage keeping me out of their quarrels. i politely ask for the same in this case or i'll stop contributing to any debate on this issue myself. i'm already regretting having posted.

artemisia

well, it seems strange that you wonder about the issue, but won't talk to somebody who knows.

and btw, my problem with said person isn't about this issue. It's about a vicious transphobic insult. But there are plenty of others in the UK (and Belgium too I understnad) whom you could consult if you really wanted to know.

But you have close friends who are emphatic in their detestation of the idea of teaching men (and you know who I'm referring to). why don't you ask them what their problem really is ?

Helen, you're wearing out your supporters & friends on this board. General discussions are fine, but don't make everything personal.

Sorting out your personal anger at individuals should be done via e-mail, not in a public forum.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Helen, you're wearing out your supporters & friends on this board. General discussions are fine, but don't make everything personal.

Sorting out your personal anger at individuals should be done via e-mail, not in a public forum.

Well said, Lauren!

To get back on topic, I was dating a nice Italian / Syrian hybrid for a while and Jeremy (who btw is American born and raised) was very uncomfortable with men 'belly dancing'. Now, if you put it into context of theatrical or folk dance, he was fine with it. I think his feeling about men in drag would have been the same as the commentators. But his feeling about men in drag would have been the same in any situation, with perhaps the exception of a Vegas style female impersonator show.

I think this interview does simply underline that the anti-men belly dancing has a culteral basis. The question I have, though, is this: is the bias any stronger against men belly dancing than it is against 'good' women belly dancing?

Just an observation.

{{{HUGS}}}

Here's my take on the clip and interview; first, however commentator's comments about men in bedlah, in makeup, etc. when the male dancer clearly was wearing a shirt were off the mark, I can see that the opinions she is expressing are exactly what I hear from my ME friends.

And I'm talking about younger and older generations whether born in US or "over there"; they are not comfortable at all with men performing Raks Sharqi. They are well aware that there are Raks Sharqi style male dancers in US and elsewhere, but they are offended by the whole idea. And, they point out to me that historically, the bedlah costuming for women did not appear in Egyptian clubs until the early 20th century and that prior to that, yes men and women danced publicly, but the costuming was certainly not the glamorous midriff baring bedlah or even wearing body stocking that the world thinks about when they think "belly dancer". To be honest, the whole idea of men performing Raks Sharqi embarasses the heck outta them!

Without going into all the centuries of different styles of dance in different regions of Middle East and the enormous influence the West had on dance, I have to say that now, culturally, there is a huge bias in the ME culture against men performing Raks Sharqi. I think it is a bigger bias than the idea that "good women" don't perform Raks Sharqi in public. The problems of women's limited freedoms in Middle East is a different and obviously complex problem that will take many more decades to slowly evolve and change.

And, even though the West has performed Raks Sharqi, fused it, made up distinctly Western styles (such as tribal), we cannot say that this dance originated in the West. It's roots are in the Middle East and I respect that. And when someone tells me, passionately, that they don't think men should be performing Raks Sharqi, or they refuse to teach a man, then that is their choice and I respect it.

We have a free society with freedom of expression in many forms, but if we are learning and adapting a dance from another culture, it is beyond unfair not to respect that culture's boundaries, whether we agree with them or not. While it is true that art forms evolve, sometimes with stunning rapid trendsetting styles, what we are really talking about here is cultural change, and that process takes a very long time.

Some people just need to dance - they are born to it - regardless of the culture they're born into - I have been taught by two - no, sorry, three male Egyptian dancers - all VERY different in style, and yes at least one has suffered a great deal for daring to become a dancer. So do some Egyptian women dancers.
But no-one can deny the joy that dancing gives whether the dancer be male or female.

just to lighten things - Wot about the movie "Happy Feet"

Originally Posted by waldim10

This is quite funny. A short video of a pretty fine male dancer with truly daft historical perspective over the top.

And then a debate. It's hysterical, the woman who is the principal talker is Wendy Buonaventura's lebanese counterpart (probably did the history bit too)talking complete garbage about male dancers as all being transvestite, despite the evidence to the contrary.

"I couldn't teach a man for $1000 an hour"

http://www.yalibnan.com/site/tv/2007...the_raging.php

h/t Gilded Serpent

I can feel a recipe coming on....

Originally Posted by Nisima

We have a free society with freedom of expression in many forms, but if we are learning and adapting a dance from another culture, it is beyond unfair not to respect that culture's boundaries, whether we agree with them or not. While it is true that art forms evolve, sometimes with stunning rapid trendsetting styles, what we are really talking about here is cultural change, and that process takes a very long time.

I don't know, I don't agree (nothing personal ..g.: ) I just read an interesting volume of The Ethicist, by Randy Cohen, a few weeks ago: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/ma...l?ref=magazine

A foreigner in Singapore felt bad about the charges brought against a man who broke into his apartment, but didn't know if he should protest the established justice system there:

"To treat other people in other places with dignity does not mean treating them uncritically. (It is discreditable to refuse to allow women to drive whether that stricture is imposed in San Antonio or Saudi Arabia: sexism is sexism.) You don’t abandon moral reason when you leave home. To keep silent is not a sign of respect but of sloth or fear or condescension. You should appeal for justice, your own idea of justice, even in Singapore. "

This isn't exactly the same situation, but relating to the same principle: why should we accept what that culture says about men dancing? We shouldn't if we don't feel it's right. It's sexism no matter where it happens.

Just food for thought: is it also more than unfair to not accept that women who dance are whores? We don't whore ourselves out in Western clubs and restaurants (well, I can't speak for everybody, but I'm assuming we all don't .p:: ), and dancers I talked to who worked over there didn't, because we don't accept that cultural bias.

It is true that social change takes a long time, but for me, that is more of a reason to start expressing my opinions now.

And speaking of food for thought, PEACE-OFFERING RECIPE TALK: is it true that you can make vegan chocolate mousse with avocado pulp?

ps--I'm not accusing anyone of "sloth or fear of condescension", or abandoning moral justice. Imminent corporal punishment was the issue in the letter to Randy Cohen, not men dancing

Originally Posted by kamilia

And speaking of food for thought, PEACE-OFFERING RECIPE TALK: is it true that you can make vegan chocolate mousse with avocado pulp?

I sincerely hope not. It sounds f.....ing horrible.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

I sincerely hope not. It sounds f.....ing horrible.

..l;, my thoughts exactly.