Thread: Egyptian technique dancers' "techno-centric" approach

So, Im trying to engage people in a discussion on this subject without coming across as condeming or disapproving or being snobby... Lets see if I manage to word it as thus:

Egyptian technique has had a huge impact on Bellydance styles all over the world. Whether we express ourselves in Egyptian style and dance philosophy or not, it is still a fact that Egyptian technique has influenced dancers heavily one way or another - even outside of "Egyptian defined" dancers.

So, my exploration is on the area of - if Egyptian technique comes in as a revolutional way of approaching movement or all of a sudden is viewed with a higher regard and before - what happens to the expressions/style at hand?
- how do they change?
- what stays consistent?
- does it change the STYLE of the dance?
- does the audience accept the changes or even see them?
- which characteristics of the "native" expression are retained, which ones from Egyptian technique are encorporated and which traits of Egyptian just dont cross over?

I'm not bashing this dancer that I am going to give as an example, I am merely observing the intent and visual outcome of her movements. I see Lebanese movements expressed with Egyptian technique and intent. It's an interesting connundrum....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvGJQww1ebI]YouTube - Lebanese Belly Dancing - Noura[/ame]

Or one of my favorite Turkish dancers - Didem.. I watch her and I see Turkish intent, Egyptian/Ballet/Jazz, hiphop (pop'nlock) technique and Turkish movements.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkSdXlS62K0]YouTube - Didem turkish bellydancer I[/ame]

Mind you, I may not have expressed this as clearly as I should - I'm having a hard time wording it correctly, so bear with me on the choice of words. We could also turn this around to an introverted issue in Egyptian style as well.

Now, let the minds flow and the fingers type :)

Looking forward to your replies and thoughts.

I haven't really examined what technique vs. movements for various styles would be (I'm just thrilled when I can differentiate between some of them!)...So I guess my question would be, what are you looking at when you say that it is Egyptian vs. Turkish/Lebanese technique?

I think I see what you mean I just need words!

I've only really studied Egyptian and some Cabaret. I can't really place Lebanese. I find that when Egyptians dance there's a certain effortlessness to it that most of the rest of us can't seem to duplicate. I've seen very few Western dancers that gave that feeling.

This is how I feel about my own dancing. I feel phony calling it Egyptian cuz i'm likely to throw in anything i'm feeling at the moment and I don't feel like it looks all that Egyptian.

I liked the first clip it seemed way more relaxed than most Lebanese videos i've seen.

I guess I don't know much about Turkish either tho because I considered Didem straight up Turkish style.

I just see some really cute shoes .

E

I don't know much about Lebanese technique but I did notice that Noura's arms were reminiscent of the Egyptian stylings, with arms coming up through center, and for the most part constantly moving... if that doesn't make sense I apologize!

This does make me think that I should take the time to study other styles more.

Interesting discussion and questions. Can you explain exactly what you mean by Egyptian technique? Which techniques? Clearly bellydance didn't JUST originate in Egypt, right?

I know almost nothing about Lebanese bellydance, but I must admit that I don't really consider Didem Turkish-style. I mean, she's Turkish in origin, but she really does more of an Egyptian style, with some popping/Western influences. She's kind of an example of how modern Turkish dancers are moving more towards Arabic stylings and abandoning traditional Turkish bellydance.

Wouldn't a better comparison involve looking at a more traditional Turkish dancer like Sema Yildiz or Tulay Karaca?

I do not have anything useful to contribute, other than to thank you for sharing these videos!
Also, does anyone have any idea what the second song in the Didem video is (the drum solo)? I LOVE it.

I do understand the "intent" thing. When I see that dancer Noura, she is out there to portray an inner feeling by her dancing, she smiles, inner energy, while Didem is there to make a show, impress her audience and her attitude is cool. That's something I identify with Egyptian and Turkish style.

I can understand the description of the technique and recognize it on the dancers but I am not to sure about Turkish and Lebanese moves, I only remotely heard what that maybe could be. I only can say: I'm familiar with it then I'd say it's Egyptian or that is unknown - either Turkish or Lebanese - but that's not a 100% method ..g.:

Geez David your questions are always so complex :-)

I'm gonna have to out myself as a dumb-ass and say that after reading the OP a few times last night and this morning I still don't understand what your asking *exactly*.

I see quite a few points I'd like to explore and address and couple of assumptions embedded in the question that I have to accept prior to answering but over all the intent of the question isn't as clear as it could be. Are we doing a compare and contrast? are we breaking down and attributing origins and cause to the clips shown?

Noura would be a good for a comparison between her dancing prior to working in Egypt and the degree to which she modified her expression to suit a different cultural market once she was there. Is that sort of what you're after?

To me, the first video seems more like egyptian moves with lebanese attitude, or maybe a mix between the two styles.This dancer confuses me. Please tell me why you say she has lebanese movements....
In the second video, I can see what you mean.

gonna participate :o)

i have to admit, i find what you wrote david a little hard to follow but that could be that i read to little english these days my mind is a grammatic mess.

i think your concept is very interesting. I think its very true, the concept did have to start somewhere, and a lot of the information that we get technique, intent, conceptualization trickles down from egypt.

i think the inverse of your question could be, who out there is teaching a style that is not egyptian, and does not use anything that would be considered egyptian (intent, tech, concepts, ect.)? turkish, lebanese? can you think of dancers that have not been influenced at all? then of those dancers how many people are they teaching, have they taught, have they reached to have a wide spread effect of something that doesn't come from egypt?

I can completely see what you mean about the dancers in the video, and when you think about it, its kinda funny, its like seeing half a dancer, shes half doing one thing, and half doing the other, and has put it together to make herself the dancer that she is. Half egyptian intent and technique, and half lebanese styling/movements.

Didem i think is another case all together. She seems to me more of a show girl than anything (and thats not negative) shes a performer, but i feel like a lot of the dance gets lots when shes performing....i feel a really large disconnection to the music with her, all about the movements, which she does take from ALL over, and theres almost nothing about the feeling

Originally Posted by mrsnj20

To me, the first video seems more like egyptian moves with lebanese attitude, or maybe a mix between the two styles.This dancer confuses me. Please tell me why you say she has lebanese movements....
In the second video, I can see what you mean.

Hi all :)
What is confusing with Noura is that she is Russian, and she lived 5 years in Greece, and learned first of all Greek Tsifteteli style.
And the influence of the style breath in her style, even if she added lebanese teqnicks and egyptian. Many times people ask me if she is greek because she have greek passport also. Of course she grew on bellydance when she left Athens and went to Beirut. But still there is the greek essense going on.

I'll come back for more, very interesting thread David !!



Maria Aya, Greece

David this is an interesting topic, since I've studied all 3 styles, I have to agree that Didem just doesn't look Turkish style to me, but I learned the old school Turkish from Princess Nieyla (she came to the US in the 60's from Istanbul,) which would be more like Tulay or Princess Banu style. The newer generation is definitely fusing other aspects of Egyptian and maybe even Lebanese into their dance. I'm not really that into the modern Turkish style.

When I do Turkish, I try to keep my Egyptian and Lebanese techniques out of it, which can be hard these days since I don't do Turkish all that often!! When I do Lebanese I incorporate some of my Egyptian technique, because I enjoy the inner/torso driven moves in some parts of the music, so often my show has a combination of the Lebanese traveling style with Egyptian technique added in.
I think Egypt had such an impact on the other dancers in the ME, because it's kind of the Hollywood of Oriental dance. If Lebanon hadn't been involved in such a lengthy civil war, they probably wouldn't have borrowed so much music and movements from the Egyptians, but the arts suffered greatly from 1975-1992 until Prime minister Hariri kind of got things settled and started boosting their economy.
We can also ask the question are they borrowed from Egypt, or have dancers in other regions simply come up with the same technique or movement vocabulary as the Egyptians, without being influenced. Think about the Oriental circle and the Omi from Polynesian dance, very similar but from 2 different cultures. I don't think we can fit everything into neat little categories, they blend together.

Morocco made a very good point to me years ago when I was doing my instructional DVD, she said the better the dancer, the more similarities you will see rather than differences.

I don't know if that helped or made it worse, LOL!!

cool that you guys gave the thread a shot. I know, it's a bit "wooohoo dance nerd", but it's something I'm curious about discussing.

So, lets see what I can come up with here to add.... ..g.:

Originally Posted by david

So, my exploration is on the area of - if Egyptian technique comes in as a revolutional way of approaching movement or all of a sudden is viewed with a higher regard and before - what happens to the expressions/style at hand? New hybrids occured
- how do they change? either/or visual, conceptual influences were brought in from Egyptian (see below)
- what stays consistent? ACB: speed, Lebanese: Emphasis, Turkish: direction of movement
- does it change the STYLE of the dance? sometimes, but most often a hybrid style occurs
- does the audience accept the changes or even see them?
- which characteristics of the "native" expression are retained, which ones from Egyptian technique are encorporated and which traits of Egyptian just dont cross over?
ACB: nope ("real ACB VS "that other stuff" ACB Lebanese: Nadia Gamal - yes, currently - not so much, Turkish: musical revolution changed the movement patterns/size/direction - maybe some influence from Egyptian. Intent maintained as is

YouTube - Lebanese Belly Dancing - Noura
Lebanese: lift'n drop on forw/backw step, emphasis on forw step in forw/backw step, torso moves wider than hip while hip stays put, undulations with emphasis forw, large arm movements, Drop'nKick w accent up, body alignment, arm placement, "snakiness" of sideways body undulations and arms.
Egyptian: narrow stance in steps, narrow range in steps & foot placement, sharki shimmies/vibrations, "soft" emphasis in accents

YouTube - Didem turkish bellydancer I
Egyptian: narrow range in movements,
Turkish: posture, hip flexor (?) driven movements, display of muscle control in undulations (almost contorting) & pop'n lock work, rapid pelvic drops, downward emphasis in pelvic movements, quick sideways body undulations, ankle driven twisting movements of hips, floor work, arm "contortonism", barrel turns, intent in placements of arms, rapid transitions between arm positions, heavy focus on twisting movements, contrast work: twisting movements with vertical "end" accent, non-bounce 9/8 foot work, down-emphasis on end phrase in 9/8 work

I guess I'm trying to focus on things that are past the obvious direct "carbon copy the move from a style otherwise it's not so and so style" that are signatures of so and so style - still remaining in the dancer's expression VS have left the dancer's expression. Expression being artistic expression/representation, not facial expression :)

So keep it coming guys, I'm really curious to see what your continued thoughts are.