Thread: folk, tribal, ats, fusion, gothic....can someone help define pleaseeeeeeeeeeee

OK...so I thought I had my genres pretty much figured but I was talking with a work colleague who also dances (BD) and we couldnt agree on which was which.

Now I know you have your sharon kiharas, rachel brices, mardi love etc who are all tribal. QUESTION A) WHAT TYPE IS THIS

Then you have fat chance belly dance and urban gypsies....QUESTION B) Is this folkloric or ATS?

If anyone can post clips to examples to help me I/my friend would be tres greatful.

Thanks

This is a subject that you will likely get a variety of answers for. In my opinion:

Fat Chance is ATS (American Tribal Style)

Other Improv style tribal troupes, like Black Sheep Bellydance are sometimes also called ATS, or ITS (Improv Tribal Style)

I have also seen just Tribal or Proto-Tribal applied to Bal Anat (since that spawned Tribal) and Habbi Ru and troupes that have that look/feel to them (earthy dance style, ethnic costumes, some folkloric blended in).

Rachel, Sharon and Mardi are Tribal Fusion (though I think Rachel might also be using the term Dark Cabaret or something to that effect these days, cant recall where I read that).

I have also seen Urban Fusion applied to dance styles that rely heavily on street moves, such as locking and popping, or things usually not associated with bellydance, such as heavy modern dance influence.

Folk and folkloric are dances based on the folkdances of a certain region.

Gothic, as I see it, is a subset of Tribal Fusion, that tends to use music from the gothic genre and tries for darker themes and moods.

A) Usually referred to as Tribal Fusion

B) ATS or moving toward being called ITS, but right now those terms are interchangeable (there's a huge thread on the subject, started by Shira, probably in the styles board)

For bonus points: Folkloric means either

A) dances that are actually done by folk on the street or in the village in Arab/Middle Eastern countries. Debke, Khaleegy, some Hagallah, Tunisian.

or B) Dances developed by one of the folkloric troupes, drawn from characters or movements of the region. Most Hagallah, Melaya Leff, Raks Assaya, etc.

None of the tribal dances are folkloric, as they developed in the US but aren't indigenous here. Occasionally you might see a folkloric rhythm or step or costume piece used, but most of the movement vocabulary, intention, music and costuming are only loosely based on ME dance.

Wasn't tribal started by Jamila Salimpour and loosely based on ancient Persian dancing? Correct me if I am wrong - I know I am grossly deficient in information beyond this.

Originally Posted by Fotia

Wasn't tribal started by Jamila Salimpour and loosely based on ancient Persian dancing? Correct me if I am wrong - I know I am grossly deficient in information beyond this.

??? That's a new one.


Tribal-esque costuming (coins) was started in the .. what, 50's? I don't think Jamila can lay claim to that because they were wearing coins in the midwest too.

Tribal-esque costuming was referred to HERE as "folkloric" dance -- As opposed to "cabaret" style, which meant the same dances basically, only done on the balls of the feet and in sequins.

Group improvisational belly dance was started by Carolena Nericcio. Who is loosely tied (via her instructor) to Jamila.

Jamila simply taught belly dance. There's a good thread somewhere about the history of the "style" wars.

We didn't start fussing about the variations of tribal until the 90s, I guess.

thanks girls for claifying this for me :)
I love tribal but prefer ATS. I love tribal fusion but i like moving more then popping and locking.

thanks girls for claifying this for me :)

Jamila's Bal Anat costumes and dances were referred to as 'ethnic' and included folklore, fakelore, and regular bellydancing but in costuming that was more covered up and less blingy. This opened up performance opportunities that weren't available to bellydancers at the time.

It was one of Jamila's students who really went on to create Tribal style dancing, with the Flamenco-based arms/posture and the idea of group improv. That style has been called ATS for years, but now we're being asked to use ITS.

That's my understanding, based mostly on what I've learned on Bhuz and what I've seen in documentaries about Bal Anat, and the Bal Anat show I attended which I was told was a recreation of the original.

So tribal and folklore don't have any real connection. There's a lineage to an American style that was referred to as 'ethnic' at one time, but the only group who's still doing the thing called 'ethnic' is probably Hahbi Ru? (sp?)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It was one of Jamila's students who really went on to create Tribal style dancing, with the Flamenco-based arms/posture and the idea of group improv. That style has been called ATS for years, but now we're being asked to use ITS.

Masha was Jamila's student. Carolena was Masha's student, not Jamila's. I don't know if Carolena ever actually even met Jamila before the year 2000. I know the fact that Carolena never actually took classes with Jamila seriously bothered Jamila at one time.

There's a lineage to an American style that was referred to as 'ethnic' at one time, but the only group who's still doing the thing called 'ethnic' is probably Hahbi Ru? (sp?)

Awalim of Atlanta did a style very much like Hahbi Ru. I haven't seen them for a few years though.

Thanks, Aziyade.

So is Masha not really credited with any of the development of tribal style? Is that purely Carolena, then?

Wow, to be able to trace such a huge divergence back to a single individual. How... clean and neat. Makes me wish my branches of bellydance were newer.

Bet Darwin would be jealous.

If you want to get crazy technical, I think you could break Tribal Fusion down even further. Although, that might break my brain. lol

Okay...here goes(and I don't have names for them so descriptions only):

You have those that started out in your glitzy forms of belly dance that have added a modern influence to them. ie gymastics(which I still don't get or like), interpretive dance, modern dance, jazz, etc

You have those that started in ATS or ITS and still pull heavily from that movement vocabulary but prefer pants and/or Tribal Fusion cotume stylings or just don't like dancing in a troupe

You have those that have mimic Rachel Brice, Sharon Kihara, etc

You have those that pull from all belly dance movement vocabularies and fuse them together.

You have those that have added popping and locking (which is gorgeous if done correctly IMO and quite hard to do lol)

And I'm sure there are many, many others.

Now here's an interesting question, does costuming effect you style of dance. For example, if some one is wearing a bedlah, dances cabareteque but throws in pop n lock, is it still cabaret? Or have we now crossed the line into some weird indefinable style?

And another: If one's movement vocabulary is still that of ATS or ITS, the costuming is still ATS/ITS but they perform alone, is it still ATS/ITS even though traditionally what defines those styles is the group of women dancing aesthetic?

AHHH! Too many ponderings for a Tuesday afternoon! ..l;,

Carolena has often credited Masha Archer in taped interviews as her teacher and for the influences on her dance style.

Masha is usually credited with being responsible for the eclectic costuming and the use of Rajisthani and Afghani elements in costuming and jewelry. Or so I'm told. She is credited with bringing the choli into belly dance.

Of course, since she was Carolena's teacher, there was some influence. But it was Carolena's idea to do group improvisation. And as I see it, the minimalist and stylized version of belly dance that Fat Chance did sprang directly out of the desire to do group improvisation. Thus, it stems from its source- Carolena.

Gothic, in my (practicing) opinion, is a gloss that can be laid over any style, whether tribal, ATS, Turkish, Egyptian, Classic American, etc. There are probably more tribal fusion dancers doing gothic belly dance right now, but there are many of us out there who are not tribal at all doing our own form of gothic belly dance. Gothic belly dance, to me, is gothic emotional content, attitude and costuming combined with a solid base in any style of belly dance.

Originally Posted by Rya_of_Indiana

Now here's an interesting question, does costuming effect you style of dance. For example, if some one is wearing a bedlah, dances cabareteque but throws in pop n lock, is it still cabaret? Or have we now crossed the line into some weird indefinable style?

I don't see costuming defining the style at all. I see the music as pretty much the sole definer. (Is definer a word?)

Egyptian dancers "throw in" little elements from whatever they feel like. I've noticed that if the rhythm switches to a more Latin rhythm, they will often respond with movement that looks (to my untrained eye) slightly ballroom. And they certainly pop the belly. Isn't it Randa who does that jack-knife like abdominal push out and sharp pull in with her arms over her head? I know Mona Said did a smaller version of it.

Popping and locking and ticking don't make a dance "Tribal" -- but if the music SOUNDS like it's popping or locking or ticking 99% of the time, I would consider that Tribal Fusion or Tribal Hiphop, Urban Tribal (or whatever) and would expect an appropriate physical response from the dancer.

Belly dancers are supposed to be the visual representation of the music. The music ( in my mind ) defines the "style" of the dance required to illustrate it.

And another: If one's movement vocabulary is still that of ATS or ITS, the costuming is still ATS/ITS but they perform alone, is it still ATS/ITS even though traditionally what defines those styles is the group of women dancing aesthetic?

That was the great debate -- how can it be "Tribal" without a tribe. Arguments vary. ITS refers specifically to group improv, I think. I'm not sure what ATS means anymore.

Originally Posted by aziyade

(Is definer a word?)

umm... no. "Decider" was a word for a while :fg: , but that's over now.

Decisive factor may be a more widely used term. And, I agree - to me, too, the choice of music is the decisive factor, the dancing and the costuming follow that, to make a good performance.

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

Then you have fat chance belly dance and urban gypsies....QUESTION B) Is this folkloric or ATS?

Fat Chance are the definitive ATS.

"Folk" need to be linked to a specific time and place - with matching music, moves, and costumes. "Folk" isn't just something that doesn't look "cabaret".

Originally Posted by basina

This is a subject that you will likely get a variety of answers for. In my opinion:...
Gothic, as I see it, is a subset of Tribal Fusion, that tends to use music from the gothic genre and tries for darker themes and moods.

gothic tangent another perspective:
gothic is its own genre based in mood, emotion, music and aesthetic. it can be gothic cabaret for sure imo

wish i could find video of the piece tempest did with jill tracy that night. it was clearly gothic and clearly cabaret but looking at her costume in a vacuum, i would have said amcab/midcentury modern (was there ever a general consensus on what we call that here?)

this is a gothic improv i did at gothla (after not much sleep so not my best work) but imo it is clearly gothic and clearly cabaret (an old abla bedlah, wonder what she would've thought :p ) but imo the movement vocabulary defines the style of dance more than the costuming, though clearly costuming aesthetic plays a large part in gothic bellydance.
you can see a photo gallery of the wide range of gothic costuming from the event here Dark Prince Studios Photo Gallery :: Gothla 09: The Divining 03-07-2009 Pomona CA
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ9TJxeA3RU]YouTube - Sabrina Belly Dancer - gothic belly dance @ Gothla us 2009 Dead Stars - Covenant[/ame]

Originally Posted by Fotia

Wasn't tribal started by Jamila Salimpour and loosely based on ancient Persian dancing? Correct me if I am wrong - I know I am grossly deficient in information beyond this.

By her own words, Bal Anat was at least 50% "hokum" - ie totally made up to suit the hippies. Whatever influences it had - Persian was not it!!

For example, if some one is wearing a bedlah, dances cabareteque but throws in pop n lock, is it still cabaret? Or have we now crossed the line into some weird indefinable style?

It's cabaret, sure, but is it oriental?

Chiming in with the "gothic is not necessarily tribal fusion". Tempest has reiterated *many times* that she herself is not a tribal fusion dancer, though she did do some tribal lessons at one stage, and her belly dance background is far more rooted in Turkish and other ME-focused styles of belly dance.

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

Then you have fat chance belly dance and urban gypsies....QUESTION B) Is this folkloric or ATS?

Not sure whom you mean by "Urban Gypsies", you may confuse two troupes - Ultra Gypsy, the (former, I believe) troupe of Jill Parker started out as ATS, but developed soon into what came to be called "Dance Theater", JP did all kinds of creative things that went well beyond ATS and bellydance (and I am impressed that she chose the name dance theater - yeay for Jill!). Urban Tribal is also not ATS at all today (not sure how they started - I think Heather studied ATS with Stephanie Barto from Chicago), what they do is almost more like modern dance, technically very spiffy and creative, but one can argue whether they are taking things beyond bellydance, as well.

FCBD is the definition of ATS. ATS incorporates moves and influences from ethnic dances, but it is a completely made-up thing; Carolena is very upfront and honest about that.

Great thread. I don't have anything in particular to add, except thanks to those who have pointed out that folk and folkloric dances are not the same thing as tribal. Lately I've noticed a few troupes that seem to have a mostly tribal style describing themselves as folkloric, or even worse, tossing around the terms "folkloric" and "tribal" in their descriptions as if they were interchangeable. This drives me crazy -- I hope it does not grow into a disturbing trend.

Urban Tribal are awesomesauce, and not BD at all any more from what I've seen - and that's why they're not called Urban Tribal Belly Dance any more, and are upfront about their not really being a BD troupe any more.

When I started belly dancing tribal wasn't invented - OK, it was, but it wasn't really known in NZ and it had not developed into the big "thing" that it would subsequently become - and it's interesting to me to look at 90s IAMED videos and the amount of dance that was *not* tribal but was also *not* oriental and *not* really folkloric either. (Btw to me "folkloric" is Reda or other State-sanctioned versions of local dances - you would get the same with debke in Lebanon and in Greece, troupes like the one Dora Stratou founded. It is not "what the folk do" but "a version of what we like to think of the folk doing, only made shiny for stage." )

The vestiges of "ethnic" maybe? And certainly the differences there were about costume and music choice, not body work. Today I will sometimes think "I would like to show people this dance" and then think "and how should I define it?" Today anything in a ghawazee coat sort of looks triballish, whereas in those days it looked, I don't know, "folky"? We used to refer to anything that wasn't glitzy, and/or had an "earthy" feeling, as "folky" back then.

I miss ghawazee coats.

tossing around the terms "folkloric" and "tribal" in their descriptions as if they were interchangeable.

This is probably because IIRC books like the Tribal Bible made a great big point of demonstrating relationships between tribal and North Africa etc. Tribal in those days was new and seen as strange and different, and one thing about that book that irritates me is the big chip on the shoulder as a result. But it's understandable, and the TB overemphasises tribal's "authenticity" as a kind of defence. Of course, today it is very different and tribal is so mainstream that it doesn't need to draw the links - it's gone too far the other way sometimes - but that attitude remains quite strong IMO. At TribalFest, I gather that it is OK to do any variant of tribal *and* any folk/loric dance. Just not oriental. Oriental dance is banned.

So tribal and folk/loric have tended to be linked together in the past.

Originally Posted by steffib

Not sure whom you mean by "Urban Gypsies", you may confuse two troupes - Ultra Gypsy, the (former, I believe) troupe of Jill Parker started out as ATS, but developed soon into what came to be called "Dance Theater", JP did all kinds of creative things that went well beyond ATS and bellydance (and I am impressed that she chose the name dance theater - yeay for Jill!). Urban Tribal is also not ATS at all today (not sure how they started - I think Heather studied ATS with Stephanie Barto from Chicago), what they do is almost more like modern dance, technically very spiffy and creative, but one can argue whether they are taking things beyond bellydance, as well.

FCBD is the definition of ATS. ATS incorporates moves and influences from ethnic dances, but it is a completely made-up thing; Carolena is very upfront and honest about that.

There is also an ITS troupe out of Texas... Urban Gypsy, but I think the poster was referring more to an aesthetic than a specific troupe.

Originally Posted by steffib

Not sure whom you mean by "Urban Gypsies"

There is a tribal style troupe up near TB's neck of the woods, called Urban Gypsies.
Urban Gypsies Tribal Belly Dance style
Anyone bhuz-old enough to remember Office Boy?

This is IMO a great example of a folk troupe: Gallery

As for gothic...I won't say much for fear of going on a rant, but I like to see a little more belly dance and less gothic "expression". Saying it's gothic doesn't make a bad dancer suddenly good. ..c::

Sabrina: I loved your dance. So please know that you aren't included in the above statement. ..g.:

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Thanks, Aziyade.

So is Masha not really credited with any of the development of tribal style? Is that purely Carolena, then?

During one of the Washington, D.C. Tribal PURA weekends, Carolena was talking about how ATS evolved. She mentioned that she took what she learned from Masha and brought it back close to it's BD roots, including the movements and music. Masha took a lot of inspiration from the visual arts and was more interested in creating a look/mood/feeling than with dancing accurate BD. I wish there was video of Masha's troupe, sometimes I wonder if it would give me the feeling of "Everything old is new again"

Originally Posted by beafarhana

There is a tribal style troupe up near TB's neck of the woods, called Urban Gypsies.
Urban Gypsies Tribal Belly Dance style
Anyone bhuz-old enough to remember Office Boy?

Yes.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

There is a tribal style troupe up near TB's neck of the woods, called Urban Gypsies.
Urban Gypsies Tribal Belly Dance style
Anyone bhuz-old enough to remember Office Boy?

Urban Gypsies are not ATS but have developed their own tribal style of belly dance. They must have been one of the first "tribal style" troupes in the uK.they are great street dancers and appearred on Britian's Got Talent.They looked fantastic but HAD to dance to prechosen music and one of the troupe came out with a lot of nonsense about shaking her tatas a lot.That may well have been down to editing by theTV. Big shame because they have a unique place in the dance scene around here and can be good entertainers.