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  1. #61
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. jesennia's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    i hate pale yellow


  2. #62
    I could get used to this! rebekahlynn816's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by kahaz View Post
    Is this starting to get heated? Please, no. Also, I'd like to not see another conversation fall into us vs. them along Egyptian/everyone else lines. I have enough dealing with tribal/cabaret/folklore/I'm more whatever than you are.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by lizajuk View Post
    Why not get a bit heated?It shows you care about something..
    Polite heat works best in my opionion. If someone is rude you don't listen to them anyway.If someone yells at me I'm going to ignore them.If someone acts rude you don't listen to the words they're saying.You can state your point and have a heated argument without stepping on anyone's toes.

    (just my thought.)and I'm not tryong to say anyone here is being rude.Everyone has the right to speak their point.


  3. #63
    Ultimate BHUZzer lizajuk's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by rebekahlynn816 View Post
    Polite heat works best in my opionion. If someone is rude you don't listen to them anyway.If someone yells at me I'm going to ignore them.If someone acts rude you don't listen to the words they're saying.You can state your point and have a heated argument without stepping on anyone's toes.
    (just my thought.)and I'm not tryong to say anyone here is being rude.Everyone has the right to speak their point.


    Why not get a bit heated?It shows you care about something. Dear me that's what discussion is about..chewing over pros and cons. You might even change a perspective. That has happened to me on a forum recently.There are ways of discussing intensely without being rude ..


    There's the rest of my first paragraph so you see I said the self same thing as yourself.
    Anyway any issues I had over language are well and truly resolved without hard feelings.
    If only people could see that an individual perspective on the value or status of a particular issue was not meant as a personal insult.

    One of my closest workmate's political standpoint was somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan whereas he considered me to the left of Karl Marx. We were nevertheless great friends as well as colleagues..g.:


  4. #64
    Established BHUZzer LeylaFahada's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by jesennia View Post
    thumbs up to this comment :)
    Thanks!


  5. #65
    Ultimate BHUZzer bintbeled's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by shems View Post
    I think the show was taped. I see if I can get a copy...
    I just want to add that Shems was a stunning Salome. She moved our photographer to tears with her beautiful veils! And I got to explore my manipulative side, which I usually don't show on stage... ..g.:


  6. #66
    Advanced BHUZzer mathkitty's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by kahaz View Post
    The movie "Salome" starring Rita Hayworth (It's probably on a few TV stations this Easter weekend) climaxes with Hayworth performing a Hollywood version of the dance. It's actually pretty good! The dance, that is; the movie is a typical sand and sandal affair. At least it gives some great ideas of how to put on 7 veils.
    Yes, I love this. It is absolutely cheesetastic, and will always be my favorite 7-veils interpretation:

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjI8G6gA65w]YouTube - SALOME DANCE OF THE 7 VEILS[/ame]

    People (myself included) love cheese. It's good to have a sense of humor and not take ourselves so seriously all the time.


  7. #67
    Ultimate BHUZzer lizajuk's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Just a point about cheese..it is very difficult to do cheese well!
    Comedy is hell of a lot more demanding than straight performance.


  8. #68
    Advanced BHUZzer mathkitty's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by lizajuk View Post
    Just a point about cheese..it is very difficult to do cheese well!
    Comedy is hell of a lot more demanding than straight performance.
    I don't think anyone said cheese is easy. But in terms of it being more demanding than a straight performance depends on the performer.

    For some people, the cheese just naturally flows, they can't help but be a bit tongue-in-cheek.

    I've seen people try to do something cheesy and it fall horribly flat. One particular instance that comes to mind is I saw someone try to do a belly dance rendition of the Pink Panther, pink ears and pink feather boa for a tail, crawling onto stage on all fours. Was embarrassing. But I've also seen numerous dancers try ever so hard to be serious and real (particularly goth dancers)...and it comes off absurd. Good performance is hard, in general.

    But both serious and tongue-in-cheek performances have their place in any dance, form and it's fine if you don't love everything you see out there.


  9. #69
    Ultimate BHUZzer lizajuk's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by mathkitty View Post
    I don't think anyone said cheese is easy. But in terms of it being more demanding than a straight performance depends on the performer.

    For some people, the cheese just naturally flows, they can't help but be a bit tongue-in-cheek.

    I've seen people try to do something cheesy and it fall horribly flat. One particular instance that comes to mind is I saw someone try to do a belly dance rendition of the Pink Panther, pink ears and pink feather boa for a tail, crawling onto stage on all fours. Was embarrassing. But I've also seen numerous dancers try ever so hard to be serious and real (particularly goth dancers)...and it comes off absurd. Good performance is hard, in general.

    But both serious and tongue-in-cheek performances have their place in any dance, form and it's fine if you don't love everything you see out there.
    Just goes to show though you have to work hard to be funny or serious..g.:


  10. #70
    I could get used to this! rebekahlynn816's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by lizajuk View Post
    Just goes to show though you have to work hard to be funny or serious..g.:
    Seconded.


  11. #71
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Lauren_'s Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    I love Rita Hayworth. And of course, a movie scene about Salome's dance is an ideal place for a cheesetastic dance of the 7 veils. Especially, to me, if it's NOT bellydance! Thank you Rita.


  12. #72
    Master BHUZzer shems's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    The shows photographer just posted some photos from my Salome performance on facebook. should I share them here?


  13. #73
    Master BHUZzer shems's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Ya know what...why not..

    Herodias frets...
    Dear mother, tell me what has you so concerned?







    We must do something to end John the Baptist...but no I could never do that...but you must...oh mother, I will do anything you require





    Herodius presents Salome to the court




    Salome begins to dance for the court




    Salome, if we are going to make this work, you must reveal yourself more... you must seduce the king




    unveiling




    Final Triumph, our wish has been granted


  14. #74
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Zumarrad's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    That looks cool!


  15. #75
    Established BHUZzer Nat242's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    That looks really beautiful.


  16. #76
    Ultimate BHUZzer dunyah's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Great photos, Shems. And I love that Rita Hayworth scene.

    Most of the 7-veil dancing I've seen has NOT been a re-enactment of the Salome and John the Baptist story. They have been dancers dancing beautifully with veils, but nothing to do with the Biblical story. I think that's where some of the confusion I've felt has come from. Stripping? Dance of Seduction? What? It's just beautiful veil dancing. That's what I've seen and that's what I've been talking about.

    I don't think anyone ever answered the OP's question about the 7-veil dance routine on a DVD. I don't know what DVD it is and I haven't seen one like that, so can't help there. I can tell you that in my area (West Coast US) the dance is done on occasion, but rarely as a theatrical piece. More as a showcase of veil dance skill.


  17. #77
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Lauren_'s Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Brave to Shems, Latifa and a very talented photographer. That looks like a fun theater piece, and again definitely the right venue for it. I admit, you won me over.


  18. #78
    Ultimate BHUZzer lizajuk's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by dunyah View Post
    Great photos, Shems. And I love that Rita Hayworth scene.

    Most of the 7-veil dancing I've seen has NOT been a re-enactment of the Salome and John the Baptist story. They have been dancers dancing beautifully with veils, but nothing to do with the Biblical story. I think that's where some of the confusion I've felt has come from. Stripping? Dance of Seduction? What? It's just beautiful veil dancing. That's what I've seen and that's what I've been talking about.

    I don't think anyone ever answered the OP's question about the 7-veil dance routine on a DVD. I don't know what DVD it is and I haven't seen one like that, so can't help there. I can tell you that in my area (West Coast US) the dance is done on occasion, but rarely as a theatrical piece. More as a showcase of veil dance skill.
    That's the problem with not understanding the origin of something. We" pick and mix" aspects we like. They mean different things to different people.And we get upset when others aren't hapy with our choices.Seven veils to me is Salome, stripping in order to get what she wants. And that's fine as a theatrical tableau but I have those reservations as to its' value without that context.
    You can compare it to using certain phrases...we never..unless we are gansta rappers or racists use the "n" word but you hear the words "nitty-gritty" regulary because we have lost/forgotten its' offensive origin.


  19. #79
    Advanced BHUZzer jahbie's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Dunyah said
    <I don't think anyone ever answered the OP's question about the 7-veil dance routine on a DVD. I don't know what DVD it is and I haven't seen one like that, so can't help there. I can tell you that in my area (West Coast US) the dance is done on occasion, but rarely as a theatrical piece. More as a showcase of veil dance skill.>


    The DVD that I have is "Seven Veils" by Sarah Skinner,it's from World Dance New York. It sounds like the one the OP described. There is a theatrical performance as well as the choreography and Sarah discusses the myth of Salome. She also gives some very helpful tips on making a costume.

    The routine is very simple and the music is nice, it's a shortened version of "Naga" by Solace. But, as mentioned before, she does a very sexy bit at the end, and I discarded that and did some extra veil moves.

    In the main it went down well, and hardly anyone referred to it as Seven Veils, most people just said "your veil dance"
    so I think that's how it was seen. Mostly.


  20. #80
    Established BHUZzer LeylaFahada's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Whoa, Latifa, Shems, that looks amazing! Can't wait to see the video!


    Quote Originally Posted by lizajuk View Post
    That's the problem with not understanding the origin of something. We" pick and mix" aspects we like. They mean different things to different people.And we get upset when others aren't hapy with our choices.Seven veils to me is Salome, stripping in order to get what she wants. And that's fine as a theatrical tableau but I have those reservations as to its' value without that context.
    I may have missed this part somewhere along the way, but does the stripping connotation come from the movies? I know Wilde's play doesn't talk about stripping. Just curious, thanks!

    I agree with you on cheesiness - it's hard to do well with out looking silly, but then again, so is just about everything else in this dance. I think Lauren, in another thread, made reference to looking like a squirrel being electrocuted when she was first learning one move.

    I guess the key is to take it from just embarrassingly cheesy to dramatic/funny/moving.


  21. #81
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Zumarrad's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    I think the removal of veils started with theatre dancers who did performances of the dance; there were numerous obscenity charges IIRC. Veiling is always associated with revelation; even when it conceals it draws attention to the fact that something is concealed.

    I think I should do a dance of the seven veils where I put seven veils on.


  22. #82
    Established BHUZzer LeylaFahada's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by zumarrad View Post
    I think the removal of veils started with theatre dancers who did performances of the dance; there were numerous obscenity charges IIRC. Veiling is always associated with revelation; even when it conceals it draws attention to the fact that something is concealed.

    I think I should do a dance of the seven veils where I put seven veils on.
    Wow! Obscenity charges always amaze me.

    Good points, thank you. I think my own word association was tripping me up a little. Now I see the connection Lizajuk cited much better.


  23. #83
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Lauren_'s Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Now I'm really confused. Why would anyone do a Dance of the 7 Veils if they weren't referencing the story? I mean, how does it exist outside that reference? Is there some other Dance of the 7 veils?
    Last edited by Lauren_; 04-14-2009 at 10:47 AM.


  24. #84
    Advanced BHUZzer _Tanya_'s Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    I was lucky enough to see Shems' and Latifa's performance of the 7 veils. It was breath taking and not at all cheesy. I think as a theatrical piece it worked really well, and the audience was mostly dancers and their families. Would I perform a 7 veils piece in a restaurant or club, nope, but in the proper venue with proper execution it can be done well!


  25. #85
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Lauren_'s Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Wilde's stage direction simply said 'Salome performs the dance of the 7 veils' or something similar, IIRC.

    But apparently the concept of the Dance of the 7 Veils already existed as striptease at that time, so Wilde was referencing a known entity. At least according to what I'm reading here:

    Google Answers: The Dance of the Seven Veils


  26. #86
    Advanced BHUZzer mathkitty's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by lizajuk View Post
    You can compare it to using certain phrases...we never..unless we are gansta rappers or racists use the "n" word but you hear the words "nitty-gritty" regulary because we have lost/forgotten its' offensive origin.
    Actually, the slavery origin of nitty-gritty is disputed. The word first appears in the the written English language in the 1950s.

    BBC News | UK | Nitty-gritty: The finer points of political correctness

    I think the same holds true for "rule of thumb,"

    Rule of thumb

    Which aptly applies to belly dance since so much of the dance history is spotty, and it's hard to separate fiction from fact. So no matter how hard we try, we're not going to get everything right, and even if we somehow manage to, someone will still be offended, because they may not have all the facts themselves.

    Back to the seven veils, Maud Allen did do a rendition of the 7 veils which was pretty scandalous based on Wilde's play. But I think earlier in the thread people mentioned the whole Inanna/ mystical goddess connection, so I think there have been many people who have tried to pin some deep, spiritual connection to it. I have a copy of Sacred Woman, Sacred Dancer by Iris J Stewart, which is pretty woo woo, and she has a section about the tradition of the seven veils. No mention of Oscar Wilde or Strauss, she instead goes on about spirituality of the number 7, how it represented seven planetary spheres (sun, moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn). She mentions "Maya, the pre-Vedic mistress of the "rainbow veils" of perceptible reality...Isis also had seven veils, or stoles; just as Egyptians are said to have had seven souls...most ancient Creator Goddess of Sumner also had seven veils..." She goes on to say that for her "...the discarding of seven veils conveys the gradual evolvement of the soul for the seven veils of the material plane." I am skeptical of this, but she sites various sources for the above information. Again, even if you do some research, you might still not have the full picture and you make what you make of it.
    Last edited by mathkitty; 04-14-2009 at 12:21 PM.


  27. #87
    Ultimate BHUZzer *Shira*'s Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by LeylaFahada View Post
    I may have missed this part somewhere along the way, but does the stripping connotation come from the movies? I know Wilde's play doesn't talk about stripping. Just curious, thanks!
    Can't comment on how Wilde's originally play was performed because I haven't focused a lot of attention on that, but around 1904 or 1905 the opera Salome by Richard Strauss made its debut, and right from its very first performance the "dance of the seven veils" ended with the dancer being totally nude. Now, some performers either wore skin-colored body stockings or some other minimal clothing, but part of what made the opera such an overnight sensation was its stripping.


  28. #88
    Master BHUZzer aziyade's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by zumarrad View Post
    I think I should do a dance of the seven veils where I put seven veils on.

    Zum -- I remember hearing about this being done, but I can't remember who it was or in what context! The dancer basically did double veil, then quadruple veil technique stuff, then added the 3 others, alternating which color was in front, so you could see all 7 colors being manipulated at the end.

    I keep wanting to say this was Dondi's sister, but I can't access the memory!


  29. #89
    Ultimate BHUZzer dunyah's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren_ View Post
    Now I'm really confused. Why would anyone do a Dance of the 7 Veils if they weren't referencing the story? I mean, how does it exist outside that reference? Is there some other Dance of the 7 veils?
    They do it to showcase veil dancing. At the Bellydancer USA Competition, it is a category. It was added as a category due to popular demand and also as a play on the venue name, which is Seven Feathers, a Native-owned casino and convention center. I have seen dancers at that venue do many interpretations of the seven veils and none of them were about the Salome story. I especially loved Elisa Gamal's dance the year she won that category. She was pregnant at the time, if my memory serves me, and she danced with 7 Akai silk veils to Egyptian music. Her dance depicted different times of the day and different moods associated with them, starting with dawn and ending with night.

    Tamalyn Dallal's 7 veil dance (the one that I have seen) has no reference to the Salome story but is an exploration of different types of veils, inclduing fan veils.

    I would like to see Zumarrad's 7 Veil dance where the veils are added, that could be very interesting!

    Up here in the Pacific Northwest, veil dancing has flourished and the use of double veils, triple veils, and multiple veils isn't that unusual. I think 7 is one of those numbers that just sound mystical and intriguing, so people use it sometimes.
    Last edited by dunyah; 04-14-2009 at 01:32 PM.


  30. #90
    Ultimate BHUZzer dunyah's Avatar
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    Re: Dance of the 7 veils

    Quote Originally Posted by Shira View Post
    Can't comment on how Wilde's originally play was performed because I haven't focused a lot of attention on that, but around 1904 or 1905 the opera Salome by Richard Strauss made its debut, and right from its very first performance the "dance of the seven veils" ended with the dancer being totally nude. Now, some performers either wore skin-colored body stockings or some other minimal clothing, but part of what made the opera such an overnight sensation was its stripping.
    Sexy is perennially popular, is it not?..g.: And scandalous doesn't hurt, either. Sensationalism sells tix.


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