Thread: Dance of the 7 veils

I thought the Rita video was great. I was a bit concerned when she first came on stage as I saw trouble ahead with that headpiece - but she got rid of it pretty quick.

Did you see the necklace and earrings on the queen? Zorba wants!

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I think the removal of veils started with theatre dancers who did performances of the dance; there were numerous obscenity charges IIRC. Veiling is always associated with revelation; even when it conceals it draws attention to the fact that something *is* concealed.

I think I should do a dance of the seven veils where I put seven veils *on*.

Question answered for me...g.:

Discussing it with my non-belly dancer "baby" sister just she informed me she would me pay me to keep 'em on!

One of my former teachers, Luceen, used to say she wanted to do a Dance of the Seven Army Blankets.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Wilde's stage direction simply said 'Salome performs the dance of the 7 veils' or something similar, IIRC.

But apparently the concept of the Dance of the 7 Veils already existed as striptease at that time, so Wilde was referencing a known entity. At least according to what I'm reading here:

Google Answers: The Dance of the Seven Veils

As I read that thread, A Rebours did not describe a "seven veils" dance, rather veils falling away, no specific number. There are lots of erotic descriptions of ME women and their veils from the 19th and probably 18th centuries. So far as I am aware - and I have read quite a bit about this - Wilde is the person who actually named it.

The stage direction is "Salome dances the dance of the seven veils." Or, as I presume it was originally written, "Salome danse la danse des sept voiles."

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Can't comment on how Wilde's originally play was performed because I haven't focused a lot of attention on that, but around 1904 or 1905 the opera Salome by Richard Strauss made its debut, and right from its very first performance the "dance of the seven veils" ended with the dancer being totally nude. Now, *some* performers either wore skin-colored body stockings or some other minimal clothing, but part of what made the opera such an overnight sensation was its stripping.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by dunyah

...Up here in the Pacific Northwest, veil dancing has flourished and the use of double veils, triple veils, and multiple veils isn't that unusual. I think 7 is one of those numbers that just sound mystical and intriguing, so people use it sometimes.

dunya - I wanted to thank you for the compliment :) and also for your repeated posts in this thread so far (haven't gotten all the way to the end yet...). my mind is reeling a little bit at the moment: I was planning on posting soon a similar question on the origins of the DOTSV myth, because I'm going to be doing a seven veils dance at northwest folklife festival next month and wanted some tidbits for my intro. I was excited to open the thread and see what people had to say about it. I was not expecting to see so many negative opinions. :(

I guess I'm a bit sheltered, as my dancing has been limited to the pacific northwest, where, as dunya states, dancers have become highly skilled in veil dancing. when I started dancing (22 years ago - so I will point out here, my desire to dance with seven veils came after I had been dancing for two decades), I worked hard to cultivate my veil skills, because I thought that that was what bellydancers did. it wasn't until the last 5-8 years or so, after seeing dancers from other parts of the country and europe, that I realized how fabulous we all are. :) Aziza even teaches a workshop called "west coast veil" - it's become a recognizeable style.

anyhow. I entered the seven veils category at mezdulene's competition as a personal challenge. it wasn't about just randomly removing seven scarves. the rules stated that all the veils must be full sized, and you obviously needed to dance with them with skill and artistry. anybody can flail around with seven scarves, but to wrap them and manage them and dance with them AND tell a story... dancing with seven veils is a feat of mastery.

I guess I can see how to the untrained ear of the GP, the idea of a DOTSV would bring to mind stripping. BUT, really, if the issue is revealing what's under the veil/s, dancing with ONE veil would be the same thing. BELLYDANCING could be considered stripping, to the grossly ignorant who haven't seen it before. in my near-20 years of professional dancing (during which I stopped counting bellygrams after I reached 1000) I have danced many, many times for these grossly ignorant folks, and have ALWAYS been able to demonstrate to them within the first 30 seconds of my set what our dance form is NOT about - stripping, seduction, submission, any of that nonsense.

I'm bummed that a fellow dancer might just assume that my dancing will be tacky, just because it will include working with seven veils.

Originally Posted by elisagamal

<snip>

I guess I can see how to the untrained ear of the GP, the idea of a DOTSV would bring to mind stripping. BUT, really, if the issue is revealing what's under the veil/s, dancing with ONE veil would be the same thing. BELLYDANCING could be considered stripping, to the grossly ignorant who haven't seen it before. in my near-20 years of professional dancing (during which I stopped counting bellygrams after I reached 1000) I have danced many, many times for these grossly ignorant folks, and have ALWAYS been able to demonstrate to them within the first 30 seconds of my set what our dance form is NOT about - stripping, seduction, submission, any of that nonsense.

I'm bummed that a fellow dancer might just assume that my dancing will be tacky, just because it will include working with seven veils.

Well, if the dancer wears the veil as a garment (not just draped around him/her, but using it to cover most of the body), then removes it, yes, even dancing with a single veil may be reminiscent of stripping.

People have all sorts of misconceptions about belly dance, that's true, and it's a shame. However, the Dance of the 7 Veils *was* some sort of strip tease - that's not a misconception. There's no real getting around that.

Your version isn't a strip tease, and I have no doubt that it's beautifully done and wonderfully executed. I'm certain it takes a enormous amount of skill to be done well - I struggle with 2 veils. I'd be thrilled to see such a performance at a dancer event. I'd be concerned to see a 'Dance of the 7 Veils' performed at a fete where most of your audience is the GP.

I wrote an extensive article on the Dance of the Seven Veils for Anthony Shay and Barbara Sellers-Young, Belly Dance: Orientalism, Transnationalism, and Harem Fantasy (Mazda Press: 2005). ("The Dance of the Seven Veils: The Re-Vision of Revelation in the Oriental Dance Community" I think is the exact title.) In it I trace the late 19th century literature of Salome, the specific circumstances of Wilde's creation of the D7 in 1891 (Pierre Louys wrote a poem using the motif in 1894, but it was just one of a number of tributes to Wilde's Slome that Wilde's friends in Paris published about the time the play came out), and the ways the dance was described and discussed by the first people who staged it (or tried to stage it).

Initially Sarah Berhnardt was to play Salome before the production was forbidden due to its use of Biblical characters, but both the discussion around that performance, and around the performance in Strauss's 1905 Opera which was responsible for the instant and widespread fame of the Salome dance following 1906 or so, the dance was envisioned as a symbolic and stately thing -- to be danced "as if on a prayer mat" Strauss said about it. Ida Rubenstein (maybe in 1908?), who later created the role of Cleopatra for the Ballet Russe's 1912 ballet or that name, financed her own production of the play in which she did indeed dance off the veils to a position of near nudity.

The second part of the article looks at the discourse of American belly dancers (and some other kinds of dancers) concerning the D7, and traces how it became aligned with the story of Inanna's descent and the kinds of spiritual interpretations that then began to accrue to it. This is one of my favorite articles of those I've written, and the whole book is really excellent --I use the other chapters in it often in my own research, and am quite pleased to be included in it. There is a link to the book information from my page at New Page 1.

Originally Posted by elisagamal

dunya -
I'm bummed that a fellow dancer might just assume that my dancing will be tacky, just because it will include working with seven veils.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." --quote attributed to Herbert Spencer

Belly dance suffers a lot from "contempt prior to investigation," which is why, as you say, it is up to us to convince the audience what our intentions truly are. I think it's really important that we are clear about what our intentions are when we take the stage.

If you've never seen artistic veil dancing, please try to keep an open mind, people. It may not be your favorite aspect of the art, but trust that it can be done by artists like Tamalyn and Elisa and others in a tasteful way.

Seven veils may mean something in people's minds but hopefully, once they've seen seven veils done as a beautiful belly dance, their minds will be changed a little.

Originally Posted by dunyah

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." --quote attributed to Herbert Spencer

Belly dance suffers a lot from "contempt prior to investigation," which is why, as you say, it is up to us to convince the audience what our intentions truly are. I think it's really important that we are clear about what our intentions are when we take the stage.

This is great, thank you.

I teach veil, I perform veil. I'm an old-school cabaret dancer; of course I do veil! It's not my best thing (my husband says its too fru fru to suit me and I know what he means!) but its a good skill to have.

Love the quote about assumed contempt, but mostly wanted to say how happy I am to see Andrea here. I read her stuff in the old Habibis and elsewhere and am glad to see her posting here.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

One of my former teachers, Luceen, used to say she wanted to do a Dance of the Seven Army Blankets.

Eek! that's exactly what springs to mind for me whenever anyone mentions DOTSV. I thought it was just me...

Eccles first does the Dance of the Seven Army Surplus Blankets in a Goon Show broadcast on radio in 1954, in a script written by Spike Milligan and Eric Sykes.

I am a total nerd. Sorry, back to topic, carry on...

I'm glad to see Andrea here too. I've enjoyed reading some her past writings as well. Welcome Andrea! Thanks for letting us know about your upcoming book.

Lots of debate..all interesting.
Whatever I can see the dance as nothing other than a representation of an act of stripping.
This doesn't say it has to be unpleasant.Stripping can be artistic and pleasing to watch. TDOSV equally can be pleasant, entertaining interesting and artistic. No-one here can deny that least of all myself. Those who do it well are aware of what they replicating and they have chosen a suitable venue and have labelled it for what it is. A tableau of an artistic dance routine but to my mind not entwined with belly dance.
But I grant you my (this side of the Atlantic) belly dance experiences are mostly Egyptian so therefore it has no relevance to mainstream belly dance for me .
It is also open to misconception especially in the eyes of the GP. None of can deny we have heard the "Oh are you going to do the...." as a reponse to informing someone we belly dance,f::
I have to hold my hand up and say I am not fond of any novelty in this dance although dance showcases are best with some variety wether it be with the GP or bellydancers or a mixture as audiences.
In the final analysis I am fearful of it being done badly, tackily by someone uniformed in it's place in entertainment ie Wilde, Strauss. So I would say to anyone thinking of performing it:research the origin and background(and all kudos to the OP for doing just that), watch it done well by good dancers, wether they be belly dancers or not, make sure you label it appropriately and inform you audience of what you are doing.
It sure isn't the only thing I am fearful of seeing happening to this dance in the West.

Wow, I love all of your responses, thanks for sharing your ideas and the history. This is very helpful!