Thread: The hair toss

Hi everybody,
(me-advanced bd student from Hamburg, Germany)
I would like to know your opinion on hair tosses. I wasn't really familiar with that move. I had a Turkish teacher and she did it from time to time, it looked really nice on her, and I also saw it then from many dancers, like pro dancers on youtube, then I watched a lot of Argentine and Saida-bellydance, too...when I saw a young dancer on stage a short while ago with pops, locks, shimmies, undulations and hair tosses as main ingredients of her style, I was bored. The hairtoss, being a sign of ecstasy and passion of a rhythm taking control over someone and belonging to rhythmic and ritual dances, maybe also shamanic stuff, is obviously commonplace in every dancer that is out to pull off a sexy show, also strippers, table dancers, pole dancers...Pussycat dolls...what else...so I thought hm, it's sure something that can be called a "cheap effect" if overdone.
How do you feel about it?

Generally, I agree.

I have fairly long hair - it's shorter now than it was a little while ago when I was performing a lot. I always found it tended to move well on it's own, a bit like a veil following your movement pattern. It didn't need to be thrown around a lot.

That said, I DO occasionally have to "fling" my hair out of my face if I've performed a certain move (e.g. if I've double over towards the ground for an accent). If I'm going to do that, I do it ONCE in a performance as a kind of BAM! accent, and then I won't do it again. Overuse ends up looking very much like what you've described - that "I'm so sexeeeeee" thing that makes me wonder when the dancer is going to start licking her lips and pulling the "O" face. For the same reason, I don't like dancers who touch their hair a huge amount - lifting it off the neck too much. Lifting the hair off the back of the neck CAN be done without it looking too sexualised, but again it should be used pretty sparingly.

Actually, I don't like Zar hair tosses featuring in a performance. I guess that's about my discomfort with spiritual dances being (mis)used in a performance space. I'm a HUGE fan of Khaleegy dance, and obviously that always involved some hair tossing... BUT I prefer it when a dancer has other Khaleegy skillz, rather than just relying on hair alone. Also: for gawd's sake get the rhythm and feel of the hair tossing right, rather than just looking like you've gone nuts to some thrash metal. ..l;,

Ooh, pet peeve! Personally, I hate hair tossing as an accent in raqs sharqi. I know it is an authentic move, I know native dancers do it, but I think too much of it makes a dancer look like a cross between a stripper and an idiot. Why are you doing this over and over again? Are you trying to give yourself a hands-free scalp massage?

I am willing to tolerate a dancer using the hair toss very sparingly as an accent move. If the dancer does it repeatedly, I will make a mental note that she is a weak choreographer who can't come up with enough interesting or creative accents to fill a song. (And if she gets her hair caught in her costume or her makeup as a result of her mane flailing, I will feel that it serves her right to have her audience distracted from her performance.)

Sometimes it seems like the frequency of hair tossing is inversely proportional to the quality of the dancer. The better you are, the less likely you are to overload a routine with a lot of hair flips.

I couldn't disagree more. I think energy in the upper body and head are what make the difference between a mediocre dancer and an awesome dynamic dancer, and the hair is an extension of that movement and energy.

Most of my favorite dancers do hair flips. Have you ever seen Artemis Mourat dance? Her hair is an extension of her body and it is constantly in motion. And yes she does hair flips. And Mona Saiid.

Hair flips are like anything else; they can be overused, they can be used in the wrong places, and they can be used to cover weaknesses in other areas. But so can shimmies, pops and locks, spins and turns.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Ooh, pet peeve! Personally, I hate hair tossing as an accent in raqs sharqi. I know it is an authentic move, I know native dancers do it, but I think too much of it makes a dancer look like a cross between a stripper and an idiot. Why are you doing this over and over again? Are you trying to give yourself a hands-free scalp massage?

I am willing to tolerate a dancer using the hair toss very sparingly as an accent move. If the dancer does it repeatedly, I will make a mental note that she is a weak choreographer who can't come up with enough interesting or creative accents to fill a song. (And if she gets her hair caught in her costume or her makeup as a result of her mane flailing, I will feel that it serves her right to have her audience distracted from her performance.)

Sometimes it seems like the frequency of hair tossing is inversely proportional to the quality of the dancer. The better you are, the less likely you are to overload a routine with a lot of hair flips.

see ~ 3/4's of the way through:[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_pQU87A2XU]YouTube - Turkish Style Belly Dance with Artemis[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6CcaURNo_Q]YouTube - Mona al Said **Zara's Favourite! 2 Drum dance[/ame]

There was a dancer in Ct. many, many years ago named Cheri Miller (go ahead; show your age! She retired long ago). She was mostly famous for her amazing veil work. I saw her at a show in Boston once in which she came out in this full length and hooded Orange and Black brocade cape. She mostly spun and zilled throughout the opening. Then, standing very still during a taxim she pushed back the hood, reached her fingers under the hair at the nape of her neck, and sloooooowly pulled it out it's full length of her arm and then let it fall from her fingers. All while holding still and covered.

OMG! Obviously, almost 30 years later, it still retains its impact.

I've tried it; I look ridiculous.

Hmmm, not a big fan of Artemis's hair movement in that clip - it's OK, but a little close to the discomfort zone for me. She's used it as an accent, and hasn't done it again - which is pretty much what I was describing as being within the limits of "acceptable use". Caveat: I'm not into Turkish style, so while I accept that (over)use of the hair is very much a Turkish thing, I still don't like it.

Mona Saiid is just crazy. ..l;, And I say that with massive affection as I am a HUGE fan. But face it - anybody else trying to dance like that would look like a nutcase. ..g.: Also, that is an African drum solo, so I don't think of it in terms of what we should be doing in an Oriental performance, per se.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I couldn't disagree more. I think energy in the upper body and head are what make the difference between a mediocre dancer and an awesome dynamic dancer, and the hair is an extension of that movement and energy.

To me, the biggest difference between mediocrity and awesomeness is charisma, stage presence, and your ability to convey emotions to the audience--and the latter is hard to do if you have your hair obscuring your face. It's like facing away from the audience. A little can be interesting, unexpected, and exciting, but too much of it dilutes your impact. To me, a great dancer is still great if she has her hair pulled back. I want to see soul, not a demonstration of body and volume from a shampoo commercial.

Most of my favorite dancers do hair flips. Have you ever seen Artemis Mourat dance? Her hair is an extension of her body and it is constantly in motion. And yes she does hair flips. And Mona Saiid.

I know that many famous, highly regarded dancers use hair tossing. No, I have not had the opportunity to see Artemis or Mona perform in person. I live in Redstate Flyoverland, where we only see top-tier dancers when they come into the area to teach workshops.

Hair flips are like anything else; they can be overused, they can be used in the wrong places, and they can be used to cover weaknesses in other areas. But so can shimmies, pops and locks, spins and turns.

I have noticed the problem of too much hair tossing seems to occur when dancers are starting their "pro" careers. The "pro" is in quotes because most of these dancers never progress beyond doing occasional bellygrams for GP parties. There simply aren't opportunities for doing restaurant shows and ethnic events in the parts of the country where I've studied the dance, nor have there been opportunities for regular, local mentoring with seminar-quality teachers.

At any rate, as these new performers start getting feedback from their bellygram audiences, they start adopting the cliches that are expected of the role. Dancers who make a point to keep refining their technique and improving their professional skills tend to progress through the too-much-shtick phase and slowly cut back on their hair tossing, and use it more appropriately/sparingly. Dancers who don't...well, they continue to employ the same bad habits because what appeals to a bellygram audience isn't what appeals to an educated community of dancers. IMHO, how you employ hair tossing is one way to tell if you are a pro or a "pro."

I like them if they are natural or look natural. For me, I'm not a natural hair tosser, so it looks dumb IMO when I've tried it.

I remember once during a dance class, my teacher suddenly did a hair toss in a combo we were learning. I thought it looked good, because that's what she felt at the moment.

I think it's like winking. Too much, and it looks bad, but if it's properly placed and not used all the time, it looks great.

Originally Posted by indigostars

I like them if they are natural or look natural. For me, I'm not a natural hair tosser, so it looks dumb IMO when I've tried it.

Hmm...are you a natural hip dropper? A natural vertical figure 8'er? A natural undulator? A natural 3/4 shimmier on releve, emphasis on the down? A natural jewel'er?

Not all of these things came naturally to me; maybe a few did, but most I had to drill and practice, and a few I really had to work my ass off for.

My point is that maybe one of the reasons so many people either abuse hair flips, or avoid them completely because they feel dumb, is because it isn't broken down, taught, drilled, and put into cultural and musical context the way all of the torso movements and steps are in belly dance pedagogy.

I have *never* had a belly dance class or a workshop where a hair toss was broken down and actually *taught*. (I have had side to side hair tosses taught in Khaleegi classes).

IMO it is part of a larger problem which is that certain movements that express dynamic energy or emotion are not taught, especially movements of the upper body and head.

Originally Posted by wigglewhiz

Hmmm, not a big fan of Artemis's hair movement in that clip - it's OK, but a little close to the discomfort zone for me. She's used it as an accent, and hasn't done it again - which is pretty much what I was describing as being within the limits of "acceptable use". Caveat: I'm not into Turkish style, so while I accept that (over)use of the hair is very much a Turkish thing, I still don't like it.

Ah well, to each her own...

Originally Posted by ssipes

Hmm...are you a natural hip dropper? A natural vertical figure 8'er? A natural undulator? A natural 3/4 shimmier on releve, emphasis on the down? A natural jewel'er?

Not all of these things came naturally to me; maybe a few did, but most I had to drill and practice, and a few I really had to work my ass off for.

My point is that maybe one of the reasons so many people either abuse hair flips, or avoid them completely because they feel dumb, is because it isn't broken down, taught, drilled, and put into cultural and musical context the way all of the torso movements and steps are in belly dance pedagogy.

I have *never* had a belly dance class or a workshop where a hair toss was broken down and actually *taught*. (I have had side to side hair tosses taught in Khaleegi classes).

IMO it is part of a larger problem which is that certain movements that express dynamic energy or emotion are not taught, especially movements of the upper body and head.

I consider something "natural" when it's something you do when like improvving. I am, at least during my recently attempts at improv, am more of a natural undulator and figure 8 person. Not so much defaulting at a shimmy.

I agree it's an emotional thing, and I (at least now, maybe some time in the future) am that person. I think it's a cute, playful move, and I don't feel like that's who I am as a dancer. In my opinion, it's a stylistic choice that makes sense for some people but not others. YMMV.

Originally Posted by indigostars

I consider something "natural" when it's something you do when like improvving.

But things you execute successfully while improv'ing have to be learned and practiced first. That is my only point.

If you undulate well while improv'ing it is probably because you have practiced and drilled the movement. At some point in the past, someone probably broke it down for you in detail, coached you through it, and gave you feedback over a period of time as you developed the movement. Maybe you spent time studying other dancers doing the movement, studying yourself in the mirror, maybe videos of yourself...

For some reason, everyone in the dance world seems to be in agreement that you have to do something like hip articulations or turns, or shimmies, 1000 times before you really learn it, except for things like a hair toss or other upper body/head movement, then you're just supposed to pull it out of thin air in the moment.

Originally Posted by ssipes

<snip>
I have *never* had a belly dance class or a workshop where a hair toss was broken down and actually *taught*. (I have had side to side hair tosses taught in Khaleegi classes).
<snip>

My first teacher taught us a few things to do with our hair when dancing, and a little about when/when not to do it. Unfortunately I had short hair at the time so none of that info stuck in my head, because I wasn't practicing it. It's a shame.

On topic now, I agree with you. I think that neglecting face/head/hair movement is, in my opinion anyway, akin to neglecting energy and movement in your fingers. It may seem small and almost a silly thing to teach, but it can make a big difference.

We've all seen dancers with bad hair tossing, regurgitating undulations, electrocution shimmies and limp fingers - that doesn't mean the movements themselves aren't worth learning or applying properly.

I do a brief kneeling kaleegi head/hair toss segment in a choreography I adapted from one of my instructor's. The music calls for it, its quite compelling actually, and it works well. Like anything else, it can be overused or poorly implemented. Let me see if I can find a picture...

I don't know of this rather bad picture proves a darn thing or not (as it doesn't really show head/hair tossing!), but for what its worth, here it is!

I like hair tossing but I think less is more. I love to hair toss in my dances and theres one move I like to do - a big hip circle then upon completing the circle I sweep my upper body down and around, when I come up I complete this move with a little hair toss. Its like the exclamation point at the end of a sentence(!!)

Another variation: a slower head roll, allowing your hair to fall across your face then brushing it away with your hand. Again, less is more. I might do this once ending with a nice artistic pose. I believe these moves executed properly can be classy and sensual.

Originally Posted by ssipes

But things you execute successfully while improv'ing have to be learned and practiced first. That is my only point.

If you undulate well while improv'ing it is probably because you have practiced and drilled the movement. At some point in the past, someone probably broke it down for you in detail, coached you through it, and gave you feedback over a period of time as you developed the movement. Maybe you spent time studying other dancers doing the movement, studying yourself in the mirror, maybe videos of yourself...

For some reason, everyone in the dance world seems to be in agreement that you have to do something like hip articulations or turns, or shimmies, 1000 times before you really learn it, except for things like a hair toss or other upper body/head movement, then you're just supposed to pull it out of thin air in the moment.

I totally agree with you. Nothing in this dance came naturally to me; I'm a klutz with no sense of rhythm counting, but I work hard at things I love. The only thing I just won't do is 'hop'; I'm too tall, too heavy, and too well, just too, to be comfortable doing them. But I can, after a lot of work and forcing myself, do a fairly creditable veil dance and my zill playing earned praise from Auntie Rocky. Took a lot of work-I may not be a 'natural' but I will not be defeated!

Funny, though, how different people are from each other. I own the DVD with the Artemis clip and have taken worksops with Artemis 5 times (I sponsored 2 of them). And I can't watch her (or Hadia doing Turkish, or Dalia or pretty much anyone else) and not grin like an idiot. In fact, I just watched this clip and said to my husband, "How can anyone not love Turkish?! Isn't it just the most fun ever?"

i only feel it on the floor.to me, it is of the shammon.

Originally Posted by blueyeddancer

... a big hip circle then upon completing the circle I sweep my upper body down and around, when I come up I complete this move with a little hair toss. Its like the exclamation point at the end of a sentence(!!)

My newest instructor likes to do this, I've never thought much one way or another about it until I started with her. You're right, done ONCE its exactly like you describe - an exclamation point at the end of a sentence! Its fun too.

Originally Posted by zamora

i only feel it on the floor.to me, it is of the shammon.

I understand. You get into this "other" space - the music compels it.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I couldn't disagree more. I think energy in the upper body and head are what make the difference between a mediocre dancer and an awesome dynamic dancer, and the hair is an extension of that movement and energy.

I 100 percent agree with you. Of course, I do use my hair a lot, so I'm biased, but I think of my hair as an extension of my body, so the movement it makes is an echo or part of the flow of movement through my entire body. Wild hair tossing should of course be saved for special occasions in the music, but to me movement of the hair = passion and really feeling the moment.

I have tossed the old hair around at times but like some have already said, it can be over used. I have watched one dancer and every time I see her dance my thoughts are always,"yes, you have long pretty blond hair, we get it now stop throwing it around and dance!"
In that case, it was way over used. I do love seeing it done at just the right time in the music as a BAM moment. Just don't make every moment a BAM moment.

I also agree that the head and upper torso are really important to remember when dancing to make the picture complete.

Thank you for the input.
I think hairtosses can look fabulous. It's a very dramatic effect. I've seen wonderful hairtosses and I've seen dumb hairtosses. I love the Mona Said drum solo but to me it's African too, earthy, happily ecstatic and the hairtosses are real, not like show-off from a shampoo-ad, but even the shampoo thing can be fun if not overused and if it suits the music. (I currently love the clip of Orit Maftsir dancing in Korea to "Fakerny ha atbak" - just everything matches!)

Only I was a bit disappointed when I found out that all of them sexy showgirls use hair tosses with wonderful long hair but in a raw fashion. It was a bit of a spoiler. I am trying currently to define a style for myself and I feel like I want to escape clichés and commonplaces. Call it insecurity, yes.

Originally Posted by Nouria

Only I was a bit disappointed when I found out that all of them sexy showgirls use hair tosses with wonderful long hair but in a raw fashion. It was a bit of a spoiler. I am trying currently to define a style for myself and I feel like I want to escape clichés and commonplaces. Call it insecurity, yes.

You shouldn't have to "define a style for yourself," as much as figure out a way to express the person you already are through your dancing. Unlike ballet, where you have rigid standards of how you have to perform and a fourth wall that can't be broken, this is a dance that values you being able to be yourself as an individual on stage--YOURSELF, not your teacher, not Dina or Fifi or Souheir Zaki, and definitely not the crazy, sultan-seducing, six-week wonder in the cheap Indian butterfly costume.

Hair tossing is one tool in the movement vocabulary. It's not a personality trait. Unless you are doing a group choreography and have to conform to what everybody else is doing, you can toss or not toss your hair as much as you like. It's your choice as a performer to do what you feel comfortable with and think you look good doing. (Save the stuff you don't feel comfortable with or feel like a klutz doing for your practicing at home!)

Thank you Torbeau for your attention.
But moves are not neutral, they bear connotations, they stem from a context. And the choices I make define my individual style. But it's not a mere theoretical decision of course, nor am I a total dogmatic.

Originally Posted by indigostars

I like them if they are natural or look natural. For me, I'm not a natural hair tosser, so it looks dumb IMO when I've tried it.

I remember once during a dance class, my teacher suddenly did a hair toss in a combo we were learning. I thought it looked good, because that's what she felt at the moment.

I think it's like winking. Too much, and it looks bad, but if it's properly placed and not used all the time, it looks great.

Exactly. Because I love hair tosses when they are done like this.

Originally Posted by kahaz

There was a dancer in Ct. many, many years ago named Cheri Miller (go ahead; show your age! She retired long ago). She was mostly famous for her amazing veil work. I saw her at a show in Boston once in which she came out in this full length and hooded Orange and Black brocade cape. She mostly spun and zilled throughout the opening. Then, standing very still during a taxim she pushed back the hood, reached her fingers under the hair at the nape of her neck, and sloooooowly pulled it out it's full length of her arm and then let it fall from her fingers. All while holding still and covered.

OMG! Obviously, almost 30 years later, it still retains its impact.

I've tried it; I look ridiculous.

Oh m'gosh, Cheri Miller! I never saw her myself, but one of my mentors back in the old days was a big fan of hers. I tried to Google once to find out if she was still around, but I thought it was "Sherry," so I didn't find anything. Thanks for this blast from the past (yes, I'm showing my age too)

Originally Posted by indigostars

I think it's like winking. Too much, and it looks bad, but if it's properly placed and not used all the time, it looks great.

Well put!

I do a hair toss everryyyy once in a while. And come to think of it, I've always referred to that thing where you roll your head and toss your hair while spinning as a "bimbo turn." Not that I don't LIKE a well-timed bimbo turn now and then...but that's still what I've always called them!

With winking, if you you smile and the smile extends into the eyes ending in a wink, it looks very natural and cute. Try the same with an open mouth or a pained expression and it looks like you are solciting.

Practice makes perfect, but performances are not the place to practice skills in the awkward looking stage.