Thread: To turn out or not...

So I'm going to go over arabesque with some students in my next class. I had years of ballet training before I started belly dancing. So when I first started doing arabesque in bd context, I automatically turned the lifted leg out, like I would in ballet, out of habit. But I had a teacher yell at me about it, and she told me to keep my leg turned in, otherwise I would look like a dog peeing on a hydrant.

For me, it feels very awkward to turn in, and I don't think the profile of the leg is as pretty or graceful.

But what are your thoughts and experiences on the subject? Is it more ME to turn in, or was this just the opinion of one teacher?

I have seen it done both ways by ME dancers and those from other areas and teach it both ways while explaining the difference to my students. The one I don't generally teach b/c I don't like the look personally is the turned out with bent leg, but it is a personal preference as I have seen it performed beautifully by other dancers.

I prefer not to see turnout in belly dance. but that's just me. aesthetics are subjective at the end of the day.

Generally speaking, turnout locks the hips and inhibits your ability to move your hips freely. In belly dance, that is a problem. While there may be specific moves that are okay to do with turnout, I generally tell my students there is NO turnout in belly dance. "When in doubt, don't turn out."

I think the reason it feels awkward to you to NOT turn out on your Arabesques is because you have so many years of turnout drilled into your body that turnout feels natural to you, whereas anything else does not. It'll start to feel more comfortable to you if you spend some time drilling it.

I suggest watching some video clips of Samia Gamal to absorb the Egyptian style of Arabesque. I know she does Arabesques in one of her performances in A Glass and a Cigarette. Reda Troupe would also be a good role model.

Originally Posted by lotus

I prefer not to see turnout in belly dance. but that's just me. aesthetics are subjective at the end of the day.

ITA. And I say this as someone with a ballet background who struggled for years to "unlearn" the turnout influence in a lot of my dancing.

I prefer to think there is more than one way to do an arabesque.

If you want to do one with the leg more lifted, Reda style, the aesthetic for me is to turn the leg out a bit to make for a softer, more continuous line from head to toe. A turned in lifted leg can result in a dropped, bent knee that breaks this line. Plus I keep the hip down to prevent the "dog at the hydrant" look which is just bleah.

For a more relaxed arabesque, I think of not lifting the leg but lifting one hip, using the muscles in the torso, with the leg trailing so that the leg line is "broken" but more sinuous. This arabesque is not about a shape in space but an internal pulling in. I showed this to my ballet teacher and she was speechless. ..l;,

I have an issue with seeing a heel in an Arabesque. At least one which is lifted off the ground. I think the line is nicer. But this is also the whole pointed toes argument. Many people feel pointing your toes in belly dance is in authentic I feel on certain moves, it is visually more pleasing.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by ouroboros

I showed this to my ballet teacher and she was speechless. ..l;,

Do you mean she loved it, or was horrified by it??

Originally Posted by ssipes

Do you mean she loved it, or was horrified by it??

Utterly horrified! ..l;,

It embodied everything evil in a ballet arabesque...

i'm also ballet trained and do the turned out lifted leg, but teach that turnout is an option (unless group choreography)
for me its all about the line and imo the leg looks better turned out.
but keep in mind this is not the high lifted, bent acrobatic don q leg.
its the low belly dance arabesque. but its automatic for me. i even do it in cybergoth fusion bellydance lol!



imo both ways are valid choices. especially in raqs sharki...and fusion ;)

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

I have an issue with seeing a heel in an Arabesque. At least one which is lifted off the ground. I think the line is nicer. But this is also the whole pointed toes argument. Many people feel pointing your toes in belly dance is in authentic I feel on certain moves, it is visually more pleasing.

{{{HUGS}}}

This. ..g.:

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Generally speaking, turnout locks the hips and inhibits your ability to move your hips freely. In belly dance, that is a problem.

Yes, it is. For hipwork. But I'm assuming she's not layering hipwork during the actual arabesque.

While there may be specific moves that are okay to do with turnout, I generally tell my students there is NO turnout in belly dance. "When in doubt, don't turn out."

I used to say that, but I just say there is not very much turn out. There is certainly no extreme, engaged turnout, but often it is comfortable and pleasing to have the feet arranged in a T shape. Like what Najia describes in this article:
Najia writes about your dancing feet for the Gilded Serpent

Generally when I am doing unweighted hip drops, my feet are slightly turned out and in a T.

There is also an additional bit of lateral turnout in the unweighted hip during Egyptian style beledi hip drops where there is a release of the foot every other drop. If you watch, most Egyptian dancers are turning out at the hip such that the inside of the ankle is exposed when the hip is down and the foot is released.

I have found that being able to utilize some turnout also helps in smoothing out turns and spins.

Originally Posted by ssipes

But I'm assuming she's not layering hipwork during the actual arabesque.

ironically, i find that works best with turnout at certain points in the movement, increasing the range of motion

Like many others here, I have decades of classical ballet training under my belt. I am very laterally rotated, and am turned out just about all the time--washing dishes, standing in line at the market, et cetera. I also continue to practice and perform ballet in addition to belly dance. I couldn't turn in if I wanted to. I would teach your students to use the turn-out that feels natural to them. I wouldn't have them train in if they're a natural outie, and I wouldn't have them train out if they're a natural innie. I would teach them all to keep the hips squared off, as opposed to rotating out, keep toes pointed and to avoid sickling at the ankle. I think more students will develop a graceful, elegant arabeqsue.
I turn out & I'm fine with it. The belly dance police can arrest me if they want.

What Naya and Sedonia said. I used to tell students "no turn out", but soon found out that, as Naya noted, there are "innies" and "outies" and all degrees of turnout in between. It is my personal take on raqs sharqi that it is primarily done with little no turnout with exceptions like an arabesque turn and the unweighted hip drop that Sedonia describes. As Sedonia said, there is not very much turnout in raqs sharqi.

Thanks, ladies.

I showed my students both a turned-in and turned-out arabesque, and told them they can choose what works best for them, keeping in mind that turnout is generally not a part of belly dance.

But I will continue to turn my arabesques out, it's natural for me, and I feel that it creates a nicer line.

I turn out. A turned in arabesque looks awkward and ugly IMO. And it doesn't stop me layering a hip accent on it, in fact I'd say I can probably do it more easily that way than if I was forcing my leg in.

Good points, Leyla and Nayastrance. Not all people with turnout got it from ballet training. We all have different amounts of natural turnout and a dance form like belly dance is flexible enough to accomodate this variation IMO. And people with lots of ballet training may not be able to undo all of their turnout without causing themselves discomfort.

I recently learned I have a fairly extreme amount of natural range of hip rotation that I never knew I had -- as in good enough to have trained seriously in ballet. I'm 43 so that ship sailed 3 decades ago, but I am having fun learning what to do with it now. I have also wondered for at least 20 years why I couldn't do squats well with my feet parallel; now I know and I have stopped fighting my natural mechanics.

There is a difference between an open hip joint and a turn out, IMHO. I turn out, but I dont TWIST my thigh... I dont know if that made sense.

I cant STAND floppy feet or lack of awareness and tension throughout the line from the oblique/core to the arch of the foot. It just doesnt look finished and it doesnt look elegant (speaking for stage). Also, if you are at a raised level in regard to you audience and you are arabesquing your little heart out with your back to the audience without any turn out, you are showing the bottom of your dirty shoe or foot to the audience (and some photographer will take a pic of you).

I teach the positioning of the thigh/turnout/line as if you want to think of having the hamstring placed slightly more inwards so it aligns with your oblique (straight line from oblique to that spot that you feel the fatigue in when you squeeze the back of your thigh).

(let the sqwoshy spot next to the "big thigh muscle" on the inside face diagonally forward, dont think of the inside of the thigh, just that sqoshy spot *points eagerly and pushes on the sqwoshy spot*)

This results in a visually more articulated hip motion at the height of the hip bones, but not a "duck" foot position.

And before someone kicks my gluteus maximums for lack of academic terminology in this post, it's asthma season ;) bear with me.

I read "Ballet turn out" as a stylistic preference, but not a must. However, floppy feet, lack of awareness in the leg extension, not holding the core, not connecting the energy in the execution of a movement, imposed knock kneedness...that's not what we want either...

Many teachers FORCE their students to put their feet FORWARD leading their students' knees to flop inwards and their thighs to rotate inwards... not a pretty or healthy positioning of the body if you ask me.

IMHO.

I just base my understanding of the dance on the various dance instructors of great recognition and caliber I have seen and trained under and from having had more than enough of them grope me in private classes to correct me.

Aida - turn out
Raqia - turn out
Momo - turn out
Yousry - turn out
Randa - turn out
Lena - turn out
(MED version of turn out)

To me it's about keeping your hips open for movement and visual articulation, not about tweaking your foot to look like a ballerina. I've had people ask if I have trained in Ballet, so I guess it's similar - just not 100% the same. Although it was quite funny when a ballet dancer of many years made the comment to his girlfriend a summer we were working extra for a survey company that "that guy never trained Ballet and he has a better turn out than me! argh". theehee.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Good points, Leyla and Nayastrance. Not all people with turnout got it from ballet training. We all have different amounts of natural turnout and a dance form like belly dance is flexible enough to accomodate this variation IMO. And people with lots of ballet training may not be able to undo all of their turnout without causing themselves discomfort.

I recently learned I have a fairly extreme amount of natural range of hip rotation that I never knew I had -- as in good enough to have trained seriously in ballet. I'm 43 so that ship sailed 3 decades ago, but I am having fun learning what to do with it now. I have also wondered for at least 20 years why I couldn't do squats well with my feet parallel; now I know and I have stopped fighting my natural mechanics.

Same. Parallel feet have been quite a challenge for me. I know I don't turn out as much as I *did* but as a natural turner-outer with some solid basic ballet in childhood, I've always turned out,and from the hip. Tight hams and achilles, lots of rotation in the hip joint (seems to often go together for some reason).

In some ways I am a ballet tragedy, because my hips and my feet are really good, but my knees, my limited extension to the side and back, my height and my bosom meant it was *never to be*.

Oh! And correct me if I'm wrong, ballet people, but in My Day a position where you're standing on one leg with the extended leg bent is NOT an arabesque. It's an attitude, and you can do them in a variety of positions (attitude en avant, for instance, which is to the front and which is pretty).Attitude en arriere is the one that looks like an arabesque.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Oh! And correct me if I'm wrong, ballet people, but in My Day a position where you're standing on one leg with the extended leg bent is NOT an arabesque. It's an attitude, and you can do them in a variety of positions (attitude en avant, for instance, which is to the front and which is pretty).Attitude en arriere is the one that looks like an arabesque.

Yes, an arabesque with a bent leg is called an attitude. Well, technically, it is called arabesque a la derriere en attitude. But most people short hand it for attitude.

The Spanish ballet school teach a grande jete with the back leg en attitude. It's fantastic!

{{{HUGS}}}

The Spanish ballet school teach a grande jete with the back leg en attitude. It's fantastic!

I've seen those, they're amazing!

Originally Posted by david

There is a difference between an open hip joint and a turn out, IMHO. I turn out, but I dont TWIST my thigh... I dont know if that made sense.

I cant STAND floppy feet or lack of awareness and tension throughout the line from the oblique/core to the arch of the foot. It just doesnt look finished and it doesnt look elegant (speaking for stage). Also, if you are at a raised level in regard to you audience and you are arabesquing your little heart out with your back to the audience without any turn out, you are showing the bottom of your dirty shoe or foot to the audience (and some photographer will take a pic of you).

I teach the positioning of the thigh/turnout/line as if you want to think of having the hamstring placed slightly more inwards so it aligns with your oblique (straight line from oblique to that spot that you feel the fatigue in when you squeeze the back of your thigh).

(let the sqwoshy spot next to the "big thigh muscle" on the inside face diagonally forward, dont think of the inside of the thigh, just that sqoshy spot *points eagerly and pushes on the sqwoshy spot*)

This results in a visually more articulated hip motion at the height of the hip bones, but not a "duck" foot position.

And before someone kicks my gluteus maximums for lack of academic terminology in this post, it's asthma season ;) bear with me.

I read "Ballet turn out" as a stylistic preference, but not a must. However, floppy feet, lack of awareness in the leg extension, not holding the core, not connecting the energy in the execution of a movement, imposed knock kneedness...that's not what we want either...

Many teachers FORCE their students to put their feet FORWARD leading their students' knees to flop inwards and their thighs to rotate inwards... not a pretty or healthy positioning of the body if you ask me.

IMHO.

I just base my understanding of the dance on the various dance instructors of great recognition and caliber I have seen and trained under and from having had more than enough of them grope me in private classes to correct me.

Aida - turn out
Raqia - turn out
Momo - turn out
Yousry - turn out
Randa - turn out
Lena - turn out
(MED version of turn out)

To me it's about keeping your hips open for movement and visual articulation, not about tweaking your foot to look like a ballerina. I've had people ask if I have trained in Ballet, so I guess it's similar - just not 100% the same. Although it was quite funny when a ballet dancer of many years made the comment to his girlfriend a summer we were working extra for a survey company that "that guy never trained Ballet and he has a better turn out than me! argh". theehee.

I agree with this whole post! Get out of my head, David!

Originally Posted by zumarrad

position where you're standing on one leg with the extended leg bent is NOT an arabesque. It's an attitude, and you can do them in a variety of positions (attitude en avant, for instance, which is to the front and which is pretty).Attitude en arriere is the one that looks like an arabesque.

exactly, you are right

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

The Spanish ballet school teach a grande jete with the back leg en attitude. It's fantastic!

omg i know love it, and have you seen the royal danish ballet? they do it with the most amazing ballon

OK I will show my general dance ignorance and ask - waht exactly is an Arabesque? I think I know what a belly-dance arabesque is, but now I'm not sure.

And as for "turning out", are we just talking the foot turning one way or another?

Duh . . .

Arabesque: One of the basic poses in ballet, arabesque takes its name from a form of Moorish ornament. In ballet it is a position of the body, in profile, supported on one leg, which can be straight or demi-plié, with the other leg extended behind and at right angles to it, and the arms held in various harmonious positions creating the longest possible line from the fingertips to the toes. The shoulders must be held square to the line of direction. (ABT online Dictionary American Ballet Theatre - Ballet Dictionary)

Turn out:This is the ability of the dancer to turn his or her feet and legs out from the hip joints to a 90-degree position. This turn-out, or en-dehors, is one of the essential principles of the classical dance, giving the dancer freedom of movement in every direction (again ABT)

Simply put, arabesque is when you extend your leg out in a straight line behind you, either lifted or not. The key is that your torso & upper body stay facing generally front. Turn out is when you rotate your legs in the sockets so that your toes & knees are facing out and away from each other. when your feet are together they form a little V with the heels together & toes pointing out. For some people their turn-out is so developed the V looks more like a _

Thank you so much for that info. It all makes sense now.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

The Spanish ballet school teach a grande jete with the back leg en attitude. It's fantastic!

{{{HUGS}}}

clips, clips por favor!

I am ballet trained (since I was a pup). I turn out for movements like this, not for hip work (for those of you who have tried it doesn't work.). I also have years of modern training so I can work in both positions.
As a teacher I say "for this movement you will see me turn out but that is not needed. I show them both ways.
I most likely will never stop turning out on an arabesque, it has been put into my body with years of training and I don't see my line as a bad thing. It does not lock your hip at all when done turning out from the hip, not the foot (everyone trained in ballet knows turn out comes from the hip, not the lower leg or foot). I do not encourage my students who are not ballet trained to turn out as they will most likely try to do so from the foot or lower leg (as that is how it appears to most people) and that is horrible for the knees and everything below!
I walk like a duck, always have, from ballet. My husband always laughs and says" I know she has hada have ballet" just by watching someone walk (he's seen many dancers in his time).
That being said I constantly correct my own ballet trained dancers to stop turning out! So do not get the impression that I feel belly dancers should be turned out!
I think if that is a comfortable position for your body for this movement and your line is good that is what people will notice when you dance (if the belly dance police complain about your turned out feet oh well)
Personally dancers with turned in feet really disturb me ( most likely from years of being told in ballet that that is bad!). But that is the way their feet are who am I to say?
Just my two cents......