Thread: Where did pops & locks originate?

I've been thinking about this. I love pops & locks, but don't perform them much. Where did they originate? If you watch old bd movies (Samia Gamal, etc..) you don't see anything like that. I'm still learning to differentiate between styles, so bear with me if this is a silly question.

I think it's a very, very good question. I do see teeny powerful ones in modern Egyptian dancing (depending on what you call a pop or lock, not really like we do them here).

I'm curious to see what people's observations are!

How did they get into bellydance or how they originated in general?

The earliest upper body pop n lock I have seen (on film) was a male dancer by the name of Aziz in the 60's. He was a male Rachel Brice. Tall thin and long limbs with a slow sultry manner.

My guess - and it's just a guess - is that it is a crossover or fushion from hip hop. Or even just a sign of the times and the evolution of dance in general.

Originally Posted by anala

was a male dancer by the name of Aziz in the 60's

Aziz of LA? The one that worked at Moun of Tunis and other local restaurants/clubs in 60s/70s? You have video???

Originally Posted by MakedaMaysa

How did they get into bellydance or how they originated in general?

How'd they get into BD

Yes, I agree it was an advance along with the population of the drum solo. I saw a video of Nagwa Fouad doing the drum solo dance. It was rather fun seeing her interpretation of it. Not sure if I favorited it or not. I'll have to go dig through my videos and see.

**ETA***

OK, here is Nagwa doing her drum solo. She does alot of chest pops(or NOT) I just rewatched it again. It's the first video I've personally seen of an Egpyptian dancer from her era doing a drum solo. So, I apologize for posting this when it has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXtI2Nloi-w"]YouTube - Najwa Fouad Drum Solo[/ame]

Amaya had that footage when we saw a preview of some of the video to be included in her new DVD. I know that she was having some difficulties with gaining rights from heirs and the like, but I am hoping that footage made the legal hurdle. I just ordered it from her directly. He was mesmerizing. Dark, dangerous and outrageous.

Originally Posted by anala

He was mesmerizing. Dark, dangerous and outrageous.

I have heard such and have been looking for footage. Will you please let me know if it's on there?? He was an unofficial mentor of sorts for many a now-famous dancer in our area.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

Yes, I agree it was an advance along with the population of the drum solo. I saw a video of Nagwa Fouad doing the drum solo dance. It was rather fun seeing her interpretation of it. Not sure if I favorited it or not. I'll have to go dig through my videos and see.

**ETA***

OK, here is Nagwa doing her drum solo. She does alot of chest pops but not locks. It's the first video I've personally seen of an Egpyptian dancer from her era doing a drum solo.
YouTube - Najwa Fouad Drum Solo

Great clip! All those cymbal crashes on the high-hat and hints of electric guitar plus the editing make me wonder if this was pretty avant-garde for its day.

But to original topic, I've always thought the pop 'n lock moves came from hip hop crossover into Tribal Fusion, but that's just an impression, I don't really know. I think it's a great question.

Best Nagwa clip ever. Wow.

I am interested to see this dancer, Anala.

I have also been wondering the same about the pops and locks.

I'm ordering my DVD from Amaya to-day.

Again, I think it depends on what you call pops and locks.

If you're talking about little abdominal locks like Dina does (or like Nagua does in the above clip) and ribcage pops a la Fifi, I doubt those came from hip hop or tribal fusion.

But if you're talking about stop-motion movements like Rachel Brice does, I can see the relationship.

Maybe we need to define our terms for the purpose of this discussion?

I have always believed that pops and locks, liquid/ robot-style, is very recent and came out of break dancing and hip-hop, fusion made popular by Urban Tribal, Rachel, Zoe and the like. Sharp accents with the hip or chest are not necessarily popping and locking. So I think Lauren is right, we need to be clear what we mean by popping and locking.

Here's some examples in it's more "pure" form:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HkFK_wTss0"]YouTube - Dance Style: POPPING & Locking[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsOaQGF7kiQ"]YouTube - robot dance[/ame]

This would be more what I would consider popping and locking in a belly dance context:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFXNZLsEVqw]YouTube - Zoe at Tribal Fest 7 Solo[/ame]

What a mesmerizing clip -- although that's not the movement vocabulary that a traditional dancer thinks of as 'bellydance' at all -- that's the 'fusion' part of 'Tribal Fusion' to me!

So in that case, those moves DO come from hip hop, and are being fused with bellydance moves.

In the case of chest pops, hip and abdominal locks as they're done in traditional bellydance style (like what Sadie & Kaya or Michelle Joyce teach in their similarly named 'pops locks & shimmies DVDs, for instance), I'm really curious to hear more theories!

Sonja, which kind did you mean in your original question?

Hey, great differentiation. I was thinking Sadie & Kaya or Michelle pop & lock. I don't do tribal style at all, but I just *assumed* the tribal pops/locks/etc... were heavily hip-hop and/or yoga influenced.

Because I can't let a pop-lock thread go by without going to watch these myself :) I will share my favorites -
YouTube - Japanese popping comp; [ウーミン] U-Min brings the Avant Garde

and anything with Strong Machine 2 :)
YouTube - Strong Machine 2 Anime Matsuri 2009

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Hey, great differentiation. I was thinking Sadie & Kaya or Michelle pop & lock. I don't do tribal style at all, but I just *assumed* the tribal pops/locks/etc... were heavily hip-hop and/or yoga influenced.

I did not experience the term "pop" or "lock" until my third year of BD, at a Jillina workshop. I know Jillina was a hip-hop dancer, so I'm going to go with the idea that the big(er) pops and locks were influenced from that genre. There have always been "accents" in BD, its just a matter of how they are expressed, with the "pop" and "lock" to be what I consider more modern/American influenced. I don't really see dancers like Orit or Dandash using big pops and locks. (haha...now someone is going to post a clip to prove me wrong, LOL!) ..g.:

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Hey, great differentiation. I was thinking Sadie & Kaya or Michelle pop & lock. I don't do tribal style at all, but I just *assumed* the tribal pops/locks/etc... were heavily hip-hop and/or yoga influenced.

Didn't Sadie, Kaya, Michelle, Rachel B, etc... get that type of pop and lock training from Suhaila? Aside from belly dance, Suhaila extensively studied other types of dance, don't know about hip-hop, but she definitely studied Jazz. So I think this being a recent trend based on incorporating modern western dance forms like hip-hop and jazz may still stand.

we are with fotia

Originally Posted by Fotia

My guess - and it's just a guess - is that it is a crossover or fushion from hip hop. Or even just a sign of the times and the evolution of dance in general.

Pre-hip hop it was in jazz dance. The similarly in the 1980s is what made me look twice at hiphop - not that I actually did any.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

What a mesmerizing clip -- although that's not the movement vocabulary that a traditional dancer thinks of as 'bellydance' at all -- that's the 'fusion' part of 'Tribal Fusion' to me!

So in that case, those moves DO come from hip hop, and are being fused with bellydance moves.

Change the costume and that could have been one of our jazz pieces in the early 1980s. Personally, I don't see any belly dance - not even fusion. Just pure jazz dance.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Pre-hip hop it was in jazz dance. The similarly in the 1980s is what made me look twice at hiphop - not that I actually did any.

That might support the Suhaila origin, she was extensively trained in Jazz. And many dancers known for the popping and locking have trained either directly with Suhaila or with dancers who trained/train with her.

Bio

The clip of Zoe was impressive, but for some reason I get a Michael Jackson "Thriller" vibe. I was more curious about the Jillina ,Sadie types... I never would have guessed jazz, having never taken jazz.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

The clip of Zoe was impressive, but for some reason I get a Michael Jackson "Thriller" vibe. I was more curious about the Jillina ,Sadie types... I never would have guessed jazz, having never taken jazz.

I'll probably make somebody out there mad, but I get a creepy vibe from the style of dancing that is done in that clip. I know she is really good at what she is doing, but it's just not what I like to watch. Part of it is the lack of affect - it looks emotionless and robotic to me.

I happen to like belly dancing.

However, as an example of the Tribal Fusion style of pop and lock, that is exactly what I had in mind. I had forgotten that Sadie and Kaya had a pop and lock DVD, maybe because I've never seen it.

Wow was Nagwa doing belly pops that whole time?

This just all leaves me curious about what "authentic" bellydance today looks like, having rolled into the art form after it's already so heavily influenced by Western dance. Is it Dina? Jillina? Sadie? All of us? Philosophical question.

I have seen arabs do them with the chest and stomach many times and I don't think they got it from hip hop or america. I think it depends on what music you are dancing to. You wouldn't use them in something classical but it would be a natural type of movement in shaabi or pop.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Wow was Nagwa doing belly pops that whole time?

This just all leaves me curious about what "authentic" bellydance today looks like, having rolled into the art form after it's already so heavily influenced by Western dance. Is it Dina? Jillina? Sadie? All of us? Philosophical question.

That's a loaded question. Western influence whether it be western dance forms, western expectations of the ME, costuming etc., has had a hand in the development of modern belly dance. Samia Gamal and many of the Golden Age dancers had some western dance training. Look at this montage of Katy, she tap dances at around 1:10:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIk8vZge9qk&feature=related]YouTube - Katie mix كيتي[/ame]

I think that might be a whole other topic.

And I agree, when I watch Zoe and other tribal fusion dancers, while I recognize that they're talented, I definitely get the Micheal Jackson Thriller vibe.