Thread: Deconstructing "world fusion" dance ?

Originally Posted by aziyade

This is where I disagree. It's not belly dance because of a movement vocabulary. The movement vocabulary of belly dance is also shared by other dance forms. In my universe, "belly dance" is the result of a dancer's relationship to a certain kind of music. But I don't run the universe. Yet.

The way I differenciate the movement vocabulary of a dance versus the dance itself (when dealing with belly dance) is by calling it belly dance or Middle Eastern Dance. To me (and this is just my own opinion) "belly dance" describes the movements of the dance but "Middle Eastern Dance" describes the dance as a whole which includes expression, energy, etc.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Rya -- I've seen you dance only once, but I would say you did "belly dance" then, based on the music you used and how you used movement to interpret that music.

Okay...something just clicked in my head. Tell me if this is more or less what you're talking about. Most Tribal Fusion "artists" tend to leave out expression, intrepretation, rhthym, and the energy of the dance and thus making it not even close to what makes Middle Eastern dance what it is. Is that right?

If that's what you're thinking, I agree. Most Fusion is done with little musical intrepretation, or emotion. I think that's why I get so bored with most of the dancers.

By the way, in case my posts don't clarify this. I'm having a great time with this discussion. ..g.: I find after one of these threads I come away with a better understanding as to how different minds work and interpret a dance that originated thousands of miles away. It also makes me question my motivation when dancing. It also brings my creativity back down to earth so I don't get to far-fetched with my dances. Although I love adding different elements of different dances, I want to keep my belly dance just that, belly dance.

I think one of hte reasons non-tribal dancers have troubel discussing tribal fusionrespectfully is that the "face"of tribal fusion is oftenthe extremists who have gone far from belly dance. That's not fair to those who try to preserve a belly dance aesthetic.

ive seen some tribal fusion dancers who used "middle eastern friendly" music that captured the ME flavor, and kept their movement primarily belly dance movement, and kept costuming that preserved the belly dance aesthetic but wiht some innovatoin. for example, a bra/belt set with shisha mirrors or cowrie shells. Id have no problem calling those dancers "belly dancers".

But there are other dancers calling themselves "tribal fusion" whose music, movement, aesthetic, and costuming seems to have absolutely no remnant of the original MiddleEastern dance. They dance to the latest popculture music fad, wear corsetsand garters, and throw in more hiphop than belly dance. It could still be good dancing if they're conscientious about quality, but I wouldn't call it belly dancing.

Part of the confusion is that there are some dancers who do both of the above. For example Ultra Gypsy and Unmata. Sometimes what they do is recognizable as belly dance but other times its hip hop or just non-specific dance theater. Just because one of these dancers performs something doesn't mean that specific performance should be called "belly dance" even though that dancer CAN do good belly dance when they want to.

So among themselves tribalfusion dancers don't all do the samething. And sometimes even the same dancer does vastly differentstuff depending on the event and her mood. Is it any wonder that non-tribalfusion people are confused?

Originally Posted by mysterywoman

I think one of hte reasons non-tribal dancers have troubel discussing tribal fusionrespectfully is that the "face"of tribal fusion is oftenthe extremists who have gone far from belly dance. That's not fair to those who try to preserve a belly dance aesthetic.

So true. I have a student who dances to mostly Balkan music and wears costumes that are more Tribal -- her arms and upper body carriage are definitely Tribal Fusion inspired. But the way she uses the stage, interacts with her audience, expresses the emotion of her music, etc. is pure bellydance.

OTOH, she sometimes stretches further into 'interpretive dance with bellydance movement vocabulary'

I usually just list her on my programs as 'Alternative Bellydance' and explain that it's a mixture of elements.

'Alternative Bellydance' I like this, I usually use BD fusion, but I think this is much much better....and give more freedom to expand

Part of the confusion is that there are some dancers who do both of the above. For example Ultra Gypsy and Unmata. Sometimes what they do is recognizable as belly dance but other times its hip hop or just non-specific dance theater. Just because one of these dancers performs something doesn't mean that specific performance should be called "belly dance" even though that dancer CAN do good belly dance when they want to.

I thought Ultra Gypsy moved towards "dance theater" or something of that nature. It gives them a lot of leeway to do things, without the bellydance moniker.

Originally Posted by indigostars

I thought Ultra Gypsy moved towards "dance theater" or something of that nature. It gives them a lot of leeway to do things, without the bellydance moniker.

Yes, exactly, and I applaud them for that. I wish other artists in the genre would do the same - and some do.

Theproblem is that some of their fans still call everything they do belly dance beacuse of their tribal roots.

My original complaint was with any artist who dons the title 'World Fusion Dancer' and can't live up to it. I wouldn't call Dahlia Carella a "world fusion" dancer even though she combines several cultural styles -- she's putting together 5 different colored reds, basically. And she calls it Red, not Blue.

To me, world fusion would put together red and blue and maybe some yellow, and come up with a cool looking purple.

Honestly I'm not sure if "world fusion" is actually do-able. It's a very ambitious idea, and I honestly don't think it can be done in music or dance. There are just too many disparate elements to reconcile into one logical whole. I mean, imagine Maori vocalists singing with an Egyptian takht, a tuba player, and half a dozen traditional Chinese dulcimer players.

I have no great beef with Tribal Fusion, if we're using that phrase to describe the dance done by the BDSS who don't wear beads :) That's my main exposure to Tribal Fusion, and I enjoyed it immensely. Like Lauren said, if you take off your "Beledi" glasses and appreciate it for what it is, it's uber cool.

I'd still like to see one of them dance to Ya Mustafa or Shenaz Longha, though. Just to see what would happen.


My beef is with saying "world fusion" when you borrow a hand movement from here, some footwork from there, a prop from this ethnic dance, and use some other kind of music. That doth not fusion make. It may be cool, but it's really not a fusion.

"Tribal Fusion" music is another topic altogether. I grabbed the Beats Antique CD and started listening to it over and over again about 3-4 months ago. What seems very apparent to me is that THIS music is being WRITTEN for Tribal Fusion style dancers -- and by TF, I'm talking about the dance illustrated by Zoe and Sharon of the BDSS.

Try doing straight-up Raqs Sharqi to Pentaphobe. I can't make it work, and although I'm certainly not the authority on it, I don't think it CAN work. Any more than Raqs Sharqi dancing works with the 1812 Overture, or Salsa works with Ghawazee music.

This is completely off-topic, but can a Tribal Fusion dancer actually dance to something like Lissa Fakir and make it work? Would that even be an enjoyable experience for the dancer? I'm not being sarcastic -- I just want to know your thoughts.

Responding to a variety of points, so sorry if this post seems a little disjointed:

First of all,

Again, I don't think anyone objects to a discussion about naming. It's when people describe a dancer's style as 'a mess' and 'a clusterf*ck' and ask who would want to see it that people get offended.

Precisely. The discussion is interesting, but it's beyond me how "clusterf*ck" can be taken (or intended) as anything but offensive.

I agree that TF often moves away from being an interpretation of ME music. Again, that's why the word, "fusion". Yes, we can, and do, dance to ME stuff. We were drilling to "Ya Rayah" last night. One of the songs we like to improv to is "Habibi" by Ali Hussan Kuban. On Sunday, at a local festival, we will be improv-ing to live drumming. These drummers do basic ME rhythms and drum at many of the "raqs sharki" events in the city, too. Of course, being fusion, we dance to other types of music, as well.

Why "tribal fusion"? What is being fused? Well, in my group's case, it's ATS with Classical Indian dance and jazz--with a heavy emphasis on the ATS, but we are working on developing our own combinations and style as a troupe (e.g. taking the ATS moves and combining them in new ways).

Originally Posted by aziyade

This is completely off-topic, but can a Tribal Fusion dancer actually dance to something like Lissa Fakir and make it work? Would that even be an enjoyable experience for the dancer? I'm not being sarcastic -- I just want to know your thoughts.

I don't know if it's the Egyptian training battling the Tribal, but I have a terrible time dancing fusion to Egyptian music. To me, it just calls for Egyptian dancing.

Hmm...that might be my next experiment though...

It's when people describe a dancer's style as 'a mess' and 'a clusterf*ck' and ask who would want to see it that people get offended.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

That is not to say that there isn't badly-performed/badly-executed fusion, but seriously this is a little much and it always comes back to it. The snide remarks are overkill.

To answer indigostars: No, not something that simple. I am meaning taking my south african style, and blending it with hints from other representations- Turkish, Arabic, Lebenese, Am Cab.

HTH.
pS: Plus I am not American. It would be pretentions to call myself an American Oriental dancer :)

Originally Posted by Amira_Siddiqah

To answer indigostars: No, not something that simple. I am meaning taking my south african style, and blending it with hints from other representations- Turkish, Arabic, Lebenese, Am Cab.

HTH.
pS: Plus I am not American. It would be pretentions to call myself an American Oriental dancer :)

You mean style, because you are South African? Or do you do South African dance and incorporate that?

Seriously people take a joke, it is stated right there plain and simple it was a joke, I have nothing against tribal or fusion as long as it is labeled properly. I have even done a bit on occasion. but what TamaraHenna described is not even tribal or not even what it set out to be in beginning. It is what if is you wanna wear docs and a tutu while shimmiing good but call it what it is. In MY opinion that is so far from BD it isn't even funny, yes costuming makes a difference and so does music.

Seriously people take a joke, it is stated right there plain and simple it was a joke, I have nothing against tribal or fusion as long as it is labeled properly.

Honestly, it's more than just that. Snide remarks have come up almost every time this debate comes up. It's like, okay what else is there to contribute?

Originally Posted by Daniela2006

Honestly, it's more than just that. Snide remarks have come up almost every time this debate comes up. It's like, okay what else is there to contribute?

Can you point out the snide remarks in this thread?

yeah it was mine, i take the blame.... but i rescinded it

Just to note, my intention is not to take sides or start an arguement.

I think tempers have flared because there are so many threads about tribal fusion and whether it should be called belly dance or not. I've gotten upset about a couple of them. Then I realized, hey, it's your opinion versus my opinion. If you leave your emotions at the door, you'll find that these can become some really good discussions.

And remember, we are taking another culture's dance and re-inventing it for our personal taste. How would you think a 60 year old ballroom dancer would react to seeing a waltz done in a brazilian costume with brazilian elements thrown in?

For the record, I agree that
"hip-hop, popping, and belly dance movementswith anime hair and/or multi-colored dreads, over deeply waved early 20th century bangs, theda bara-style makeup with a heavy coat of glitter, bordello inspired costuming (can-can skirts, striped stockings, garters), thai finger tips, and doc martens,put to industrial/ambient sound collages?" would be a 'clusterf*ck' and 'a mess' the majority of the time. Hell, I've seen people do this and it looked horrible. But that's an entirely different topic about how some people get to be famous even though they can't dance. (Some of you may guess as to who I'm talking about but I won't name names )

On the other hand, I could get offended if I wanted too. I do some popping. I have dreads. I can do crazy make-up. I have a skirt that is cut in half and swishes like a can-can skirt. Thai finger tips...well that's where I draw the line. ..g.: But it doesn't offend me cause what I do is still belly dance. I've tried to do less belly dance so I could be like the cool kids but it just doesn't work on me.

Originally Posted by Rya_of_Indiana

Some of you may guess as to who I'm talking about but I won't name names )

But that's an entirely different topic about how some people get to be famous even though they can't dance. (Some of you may guess as to who I'm talking about but I won't name names )

I am totally with you on that for many different reasons.

@indigostars.

I mean style. South Africa's belly dance style is subtley different to anywhere elses, just like germany's, britan's, americas....

There is no such thing, per se, as 'south african' dance. There is, of course, various ethinic styles, but they would be linked to different ethnic groups and never lumped together cohesively. I have studied Pantsula, though.

If you ever want to know a little bit more about the traditional dances of southern africa in an accessible format, buy a Jonny Clegg concert. Seriously. The respect and knowledge he brings to something not his original heritage is fantastic.

I figured that's what you meant, but I wanted to clarify. I've heard the term "West African dance", so I wasn't sure if a South African dance exists.

Back to world fusion... This page (World Fusion Music) was interesting to see about world fusion music.

I taught an exercise class and called it "World Fusion" I would pull dance or martial art movements from different regions and trough them together and call in a class. It was HARD to try and research the info about each particular style and then TRY to blend it seamlessly into a routine. I don't teach that anymore. Ha!

ARGH. I debated and debated whether to jump into this thread...

As others have said upthread, at least in my own mind (!), belly dance is more than a movement vocabulary, there are cultural and musical components that make it what it is. I find myself insulating myself more and more among my Arab friends because when I go to "belly dance" shows these days I feel like I'm in another universe entirely. When I've brought my students to Arab venues or invited them to hang out with my Arab SO and his family and friends, they get this feeling too...there is a different "belly dance" world that they are not getting exposed to at so-called "belly dance" events.

I know I'm seen as rather "ethnic policey" in my area, but I am drowning in a sea of belly dance that's not belly dance, and I feel like students and the public at large are not really seeing/learning the cultural/musical underpinnings of this dance form.

Off to slink away into my Middle Eastern cocoon.

I'm in a similar situation, Nissaa, though not to the same extent. There is still plenty that looks like BD but I don't get the feeling there's much love for the ME cultural side. Everyone wants to be BDSS. BDSS are fine but I'd rather be studying Egyptian...