Thread: Tribal Eye for the Cabaret Dancer

I am considering learning more about tribal fusion. Problem is...many of the classes and resources I have found approach the learning of tribal from the beginning with learning belly dance basics, which I, of course, don't need.

Are there any resources out there that are more geared to the learned cabaret dancer? I want to know the style differences, about the costuming, about typical moves and music - without wasting my time and money going over stuff I already know.

Idunno, since the approaches to movement are sufficiently different, wouldn't it be worthwhile to go over the basics, if only to adjust to doing movements with different posture and intent?

Asharah's dvd is really great. Plus, it has I think an hour and a half of drills which are awesome.

Do you have anyone near you who does both Tribal and Cabaret? If they're a good dancer and teacher, you might take a couple of privates from them so they can focus on the differences. I don't know any classes or dvds that focus on the difference between the two.

I would try and explain the difference but I think it's something better seen in person than explained.

Someone should totally make that dvd!

Honestly, if you really want to learn that technique and style, you should take a beginner's course.

While you have the basics for caberet, if you are going for FCBD styling, you need to learn the cuing as well as the stylistic differences, and having it become second nature.

If you are looking at more of the tribal fusion camp, you MAY be able to get away with starting at a more advanced class, but it also depends on the teacher.

I think that the differences between the 2 stylings are significant enough it warrants at least one run through of beginners.

i think of it this way, i would never walk into a flamenco class and tell someone I've been dancing over 10 years, let's just skip over the basics, shall we?

And I resent like hell when someone who has taken samba for several years does it in one of my classes.

Christina King offers a class which is like tribal basics for cabaret dancers. She performs both styles so her grasp of the mechanical differences is in depth, and she knows how to break down the movements for people with a cabaret background.

She's on Bhuz I think her name is Mihri here

Originally Posted by kina

Honestly, if you really want to learn that technique and style, you should take a beginner's course.

While you have the basics for caberet, if you are going for FCBD styling, you need to learn the cuing as well as the stylistic differences, and having it become second nature.

If you are looking at more of the tribal fusion camp, you MAY be able to get away with starting at a more advanced class, but it also depends on the teacher.

I think that the differences between the 2 stylings are significant enough it warrants at least one run through of beginners.

i think of it this way, i would never walk into a flamenco class and tell someone I've been dancing over 10 years, let's just skip over the basics, shall we?

And I resent like hell when someone who has taken samba for several years does it in one of my classes.

Yep, I don't give a rat's @$$ how long you've been dancing ballet or ballroom or bollywood - come to my frickin' beginner's class - you MUST go over the posture review and learn to move your body while holding it differently from the way you are used to.

Take private lessons with a recognized instructor if you are looking for mere exposure and academic information :) If you are looking to learn it to execute it - well, then there is no way around taking the required courses and classes, really.

I had been dancing Indian dances for 14 years when I started dancing MED... it really didnt help me at all except in a discipline and dedication aspect. Everything else was different. The same can be said for when I ventured into exposure of Turkish dances, Khaleeg dances, ACB, ATS and ATF.

I agree with Kina and Tamra. There are differences in posture and basics that are different from cabaret moves. Starting with basic ATS moves is the foundation of Tribal fusion, IMO. It's best that you start there if you are to gain an understanding of Tribal - at all.

I went from learning cab to tribal and then back to cab with a better outlook and my posture was so much better.

i think when starting up something new/new style... back to basics/beginners is always the way to go...

I agree with the others as well. I took a Tribal Fusion workshop with Kami Liddle, and although I was able to follow along with the movements and remember the choreography, when I run through it in my home studio I look *nothing* like a TF dancer. It's missing all of the qualities and nuances, and I'm sure I'd have to start from the ground up if I really wanted to nail the style.

Granted, I can understand going through the basics of a completely different dance form.

But I don't need a complete breakdown of figure 8's, undulations, etc. However, I would like a comparison on how those moves would differ in tribal or fusion styles when compared to cabaret.

Why I'm asking is because I did take a class. A weekly class with a "respected" tribal fusion dancer. I started with her Level 1 class. Problem(for me) was most of the other students were completely new to any kind of belly dance movement. The teacher, as rightly she should have, did a thorough breakdown of the basic moves. So, I spent 70%+ of the time going over things I truely already know. It would have been a better use of my time and money, to get a technical style comparison.

I'm seriously on a budget, so I can't spend too much, like on private lessons, but I don't want lack of funds to stop me, if possible, from learning about different aspects of the dance form.

I'm looking for online resources or videos to purchase.

It would be great if someone made a video comparing aspects of these styles.

The teacher I studied with, also comes from a cabaret background, maybe how she taught the moves was much more closer to the style I'm already use to.

Besides some posturing differences and the music she used for class, how she broke down the moves, was pratically verbatim what I learned with amcab.

I was expecting more differences, than what I got in class. It was very disappointing...

I think this is a niche that some enterprising dancers may begin to fill. I think there might be a lot of cabaret dancers who would like to "try out" tribal fusion and would appreciate the compare/contrast approach as a way "in."

...

I took tribal for 6 months in 2001. Just to see if I like the style.(FCBD) I had to learn a different way of doing the same movements. It was really frustrating. The teacher knew I had cabaret training. But I tried it and its just not my style. I felt I didn't want to waste the teachers time or my money on something after 6 months I still wasn't learning it fast enough to keep up with the class. So I went back to my cabaret style. Hey variety is the spice of life.
But the point is I did try it.
Try you tube and ditto on Suhaila

Alrana

When you say tribal fusion, do you want to learn like ATS stuff? Fat Chance has a DVD series out. I've heard good things about it, but I haven't used it myself.

I totally understand not having lots of money, but if you don't want to focus on the basics so much, I really would look into private lessons. My dance teacher in tribal fusion didn't exactly start me at the very beginning, but she doesn't treat me like an advanced student. This is after taking a lot of Egyptian style. She still has me do the basics (she feels very strongly about drilling the basics), but she'll add onto them with little combos.

I am not sure that ATS is really what the OP is looking for - I LOVE ATS, but unless one wants to do group improv (which is great, great fun!!!), I don't believe studying ATS is the most useful path for somebody who would like to learn more about solo tribal fusion stylings.

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

The teacher I studied with, also comes from a cabaret background, maybe how she taught the moves was much more closer to the style I'm already use to.

Besides some posturing differences and the music she used for class, how she broke down the moves, was pratically verbatim what I learned with amcab.

I was expecting more differences, than what I got in class. It was very disappointing...

LOL.

But nonetheless, you do have to suck it up and do it from the ground up. You'll just learn faster is all.

As part of my Masters studies, I took Tribal with Heather Shoopman this year along with just about everything else the studio had to offer. Two classes a week - beginner and intermediate. I found that at times it was boring and at times it was a huge challenge. Once the dancing started, my encoding was to do some things entirely differently than heather was doing them! (Heather originally trained with Mesmera then went to FCBD and then Gypsy Caravan). Although the begining class can be somewhat repetitive, I found that this was where I had the most growth.

Mind you my reasons for taking the class wasn't to become a tribal style dancer. It was to have a little bit of fun and to challenge myself. Also, as someone who enjoys doing Tribaret from time to time, this helped to ground some of that as well. So it depends on what you are going for.

{{{HUGS}}}

As some have said, if you want to do group tribal improv (which is the foundation of tribal, IMO), you MUST have the vocabulary, and that means starting with the basics, no matter how advanced a cab style dancer you are. Yes, some moves are the same or very similar; however, others are different or are presented differently or have a different accent (e.g. "on the down" rather than "on the up"). Arms and posture are different, as well. Tribal is not simply about different costuming.

I was in your shoes when I started doing tribal. I started with the beginners, even though I was (and still am) in an "advanced" cab class and a performing student troupe. Even my cab teacher, who has been dancing for 25+ years, was in that class.Yes, she and I found many of the moves to be familiar or close enough to the familiar that we caught on more quickly than the new beginners. That's why, by the next session (i.e. January of that year), we were ready to move on to the next level, and I did so. (My cab instructor didn't have time to continue.)

Recently, my tribal instructor contravened her own policy, against her better judgement, and allowed a cab dancer to come to our intermediate/advanced classes, because the dancer claimed that was the only time she could come, and she promised not to slow us down and to work in the back if she wasn't getting something. Well, it didn't work out that way. She wanted every single move to be broken down for her (we were doing more advanced moves and combos that build on the basics), and so she held everybody else up constantly. When we were improv-ing, she'd take the lead, even though she didn't know what she was doing, and she would start doing her own thing, doing moves that were not among our tribal improv moves or combos at all and didn't even resemble tribal-style, and she expected us to just follow along, because "we are good at following." She didn't know the moves and combos we knew, so she essentially couldn't improv with us. The goal of tribal improv is to look very unified and synchronized and not be a loose cannon. She just didn't get the concept. We were relieved when she didn't return the next session.

If you aren't interested in ever doing group improv, I suppose you could try going straight to fusion, but as others have said in other threads, how can you fuse something when you don't know what you're fusing? You still need to know the tribal vocabulary before you can start to fuse it, IMO.

I do understand it can be frustrating to be with rank beginners. Do you think there might be other experienced dancers interested in your area, so that you could ask the tribal instructor to teach a class geared for people who are dabbling in crossing over (to the dark side *g*)? Otherwise, I'd agree with the suggestions of either doing privates or sucking it up.

i think even with a lack of funds, that you might be better of taking one private class with her rather than ten group lessons...? and the price might compare or probably be even less...

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Granted, I can understand going through the basics of a completely different dance form.

But I don't need a complete breakdown of figure 8's, undulations, etc. However, I would like a comparison on how those moves would differ in tribal or fusion styles when compared to cabaret.

Why I'm asking is because I did take a class. A weekly class with a "respected" tribal fusion dancer. I started with her Level 1 class. Problem(for me) was most of the other students were completely new to any kind of belly dance movement. The teacher, as rightly she should have, did a thorough breakdown of the basic moves. So, I spent 70%+ of the time going over things I truely already know. It would have been a better use of my time and money, to get a technical style comparison.

I'm seriously on a budget, so I can't spend too much, like on private lessons, but I don't want lack of funds to stop me, if possible, from learning about different aspects of the dance form.

I'm looking for online resources or videos to purchase.

It would be great if someone made a video comparing aspects of these styles.

Caveat to the following: I'm talking tribal fusion NOT ATS and group improv styles.

I've actually taught a few workshops on a related topic--tribal fusion for orientale style dancers and orientale for tribal fusion style dancers. The idea in these workshops being that the dancers would come in with the understanding of the basics in their own form...and in the workshop we'd work with what some of the key differences are in the feeling/posture/where the movement is "driven" from in each style, and go over techniques that make good/interesting cross-training between the forms.

Provided you're the kind of dancer who is very good at observing subtleties in posture, movement, etc. and asking the right questions (one skill that really can come with being trained in multiple forms of dance) I would say maybe your best bet to really get started would be a combination of private lessons and videos (e.g. Suhaila's technique videos and a few others out there.) As you said, you understand the *concept* of many of the basic movements--what you need is to understand are the differences in posture, intent, muscular concentration (for lack of a better word), and then to practice a lot. Videos alone aren't enough (you'll need some ijn-person guidance and correction) but they can be a useful tool in the arsenal.

How deep you go also depends a lot on your intent. Myself, I generally perform modern Egyptian, orientale style, and folkloric dance. The types of music and the marriage of the music and dance in these forms (as well as cultural considerations) are really what draws me to the dance. Therefore, I don't really at this point see myself becoming a tribal fusion *performer.* Still, I really enjoy the cross-training and I find it gives me some additional movement vocabulary I can incorporate into more Orientale (or "cabaret") style performances--afterall, modern raks sharki is ever evolving. How much training you'll need depends on whether you mainly are looking to cross-train, get some new ideas, and develop a greater appreciation for the other style, or you want to actually perform it seriously, at a competent level.

Well, Me and a one of my friends who is a fusion (she doesn't claim the tribal name) artist talked a little last night, and she teaches "her" style, which is a mix of belly dance, tribal, fusion, etc. I told her about my plight and she thinks I should join her Beginner II class because that's where she teaches a lot of her stylization methods and where she does most of her movement and style drilling.

Maybe I just didn't mesh with that other class/style well. In fact, that class was a tribal improv class, which doesn't really interest me.

I think I'm more interested in tribal fusion, but I still would like to know more about ATS and tribal improv, so when my students ask me about it, I can at least give them an educated explanation and small comparative of the different styles (beyond the costuming and music differences)



I'm no stranger to Suhaila technique, I've taken several of her workshops, studied under one of her devotees for a time, and work on the technique on my own frequently. I even use some of the technique in my own classes.

I think I'm more interested in tribal fusion, but I still would like to know more about ATS and tribal improv,

It's not fair to do "tribal fusion" if you don't learn any tribal. This is a problem - people are taking the tribal name without wanting to commit to what tribal actually is, in much the same way as some people (including some tribal dancers) are taking the name "belly dance" without wanting to actually do actual belly dance.

I don't like tribal very much and never have, and this among other reasons is why I don't study it. But I teach alongside tribal teachers and if there's one thing I do know, it's that they believe tribal movement is fundamentally different. Certainly the philosophy is fundamentally different, to me.

If you want to be a tribal fusion dancer you need to do some tribal. If you just want to glitch and pop and wear some assuit maybe you could just call yourself a "fusion" belly dancer. Of course everyone will say you're TF anyway, but it really is not fair on tribal - which is the ONLY belly dance form with a finite and trackable history and a set of founding teachers who are available to work with and who have codified their styles - to appropriate the name and not do the dance. IMO.

I agree, Zumarrad. When I first began dancing solo, I called myself a tribal fusion dancer because a good part of my dance education had been in improv tribal style and I was a member of an ITS troupe - so, although I also studied Egyptian and Lebanese bellydance, I felt that most of my movement came from my tribal base. Now, as I have stopped taking regular classes in tribal style and no longer perform with the ITS troupe and have focused much more intensely on Egyptian bellydance, I rarely ever call my dance "tribal fusion" anymore, as more and more of my solo pieces are Egyptian or at least, Egyptian flavored, if that makes any sense.

Okay, just to play Devil's Advocate here - Of course one should understand the dance one is attempting to fuse with belly dance. But Tribal Fusion's roots ARE belly dance. Is it really necessary for an experienced belly dancer to start from scratch and learn from the beginning? And why bother to learn group improv cues if you want to perform a Tribal Fusion solo?

How difficult would it be, really, for an advanced belly dancer to learn to stylize her solo dance to look Tribal Fusion-style? I think it would take a lot of work, for sure.

I can't speak from personal experience on this one because while I have dabbled in Tribal Fusion style - one class series, an occasional workshop - just for fun, the style doesn't call to me, and the music it is usually performed to really doesn't call to me. So I've never even thought about performing it myself.

But let's say someone did want to learn enough to stylize a solo to look Tribal Fusion? Granted, it would take a lot of work. But starting from scratch?

Is Tribal Fusion really THAT much different from belly dance?

I know it looks VERY different, especially when performed by experts in the style.

Would you also have to start from scratch with learning whatever has been fused into Tribal Fusion, too? Which may vary from dancer to dancer and region to region.

What do others think? I'm not sure.

Dunyah, that's an interesting thought. Should a bellydancer study folkloric forms prior to orientale? Those are the roots, after all.

Dunyah, you're asking the same question I've been asking --

For the record, I've learned at least 5 different ways to do a hip lift. Or to put it more accurately, I am now aware of a variety of muscular contractions that will accomplish a hip lift, or any other movement. I've learned three different "basic" postures/stances for bellydance and another one for Flamenco.

I've had major big-name teachers say "do this, not that" while others say "do that, not this," so I've learned to both be flexible (lol) and also to pay attention and see how that particular move/posture changes the look of the movement.

Now while I realize that for group improv it's terribly important to know how a move is driven (using what combination of muscles) and where the movement starts in space -- to get the group synchronicity -- I still can't see how Tribal Fusion, at any rate, is anything more than particular stylizations of movements.

I have all the TF DVDs available. As far as musculature use, none of them have taught anything different from what I've learned from Suhaila.

Now granted, what Suhaila's taught is different from what Hadia taught, which is different from what Shareen el Safy taught, which is different from what Aziza taught, etc.

What I'd really like to see is a side-to-side comparison of TF technique and "cabaret" technique, whatever that's supposed to be.

I did this comparison for the old-school Cabaret style I was taught, and the modern Egyptian technique I learned later. There was a lot of difference, but it was subtle. The major difference was in how the dancer approached the music, rather than how she physically accomplished the movements.

I want to know if the same applies to "cab" and "Tribe" ???

Originally Posted by dunyah

Okay, just to play Devil's Advocate here - Of course one should understand the dance one is attempting to fuse with belly dance. But Tribal Fusion's roots ARE belly dance. Is it really necessary for an experienced belly dancer to start from scratch and learn from the beginning? And why bother to learn group improv cues if you want to perform a Tribal Fusion solo?

How difficult would it be, really, for an advanced belly dancer to learn to stylize her solo dance to look Tribal Fusion-style? I think it would take a lot of work, for sure.

I can't speak from personal experience on this one because while I have dabbled in Tribal Fusion style - one class series, an occasional workshop - just for fun, the style doesn't call to me, and the music it is usually performed to really doesn't call to me. So I've never even thought about performing it myself.

But let's say someone did want to learn enough to stylize a solo to look Tribal Fusion? Granted, it would take a lot of work. But starting from scratch?

Is Tribal Fusion really THAT much different from belly dance?

I know it looks VERY different, especially when performed by experts in the style.

Would you also have to start from scratch with learning whatever has been fused into Tribal Fusion, too? Which may vary from dancer to dancer and region to region.

What do others think? I'm not sure.

As I do both Tribal Fusion and Egyptian, I wanted to add my opinion. Movement wise-no, it's not that different. At least not for me. When people say you should take a tribal improv class, they're assuming that you're going to use some of the ATS vocabulary in your dancing. I've taken tribal improv. No offense to those who do it, but I don't like it. It doesn't feel as free to me. And I learned nothing in that class that helped me in my tribal fusion dancing. Although, I have used a combination here or there. Now, if you were to take from Fat Chance, or another respected tribal improv group, it might be a lot different. The problem is, most people say their tribal fusion comes from ATS or ITS when it's just not true. You see very few tribal dancers using the ATS movement vocabulary. (Note that I said few because I have seen a couple). Also, in my tribal improv class, there were very few moves that I was taught. Basically, it's just learning to use a movement in a different way.
Now, I'm not saying don't go to a tribal improv because I think it could be beneficial, I'm just saying that it's not essential. Especially the break down of the moves.

cont.