Thread: Give me examples of the diffs between Tribal and Cabaret

I'm NOT looking to start any arguments. I'm just trying to understand better the fundamental differences between the execution of Tribal/Tribal Fusion and Cabaret/Oriental dance.

Please do not mention anything about costuming or music. I understand the costuming is different and I understand the music used is different. Please give me specific examples of the actual technical differences in how movements are executed, or discuss the difference between postures, spinal alignments, weight placements, etc.

The position that I have is that I view Tribal/Tribal Fusion as simply stylistic differences from a basic movement vocabulary. If I'm wrong (as I expect to be) then can you give me specific examples of how this position is incorrect? This will go MILES toward understanding the diffs. Thanks!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Kash13

Ok, I will start with one: Stance/posture. The tribal posture is soft in the knee with flat feet, a strongly lifted ribcage and high arm carriage. I really feel tribal in the upper back, even though I do lots of tall oriental stuff.

I'm quoting Kash here.

How does this Tribal posture differ from Cabaret posture? I learned soft knees as basic, so it must be a difference in the upper body.

Here's my guess:

Tribal posture includes a lift in the sternum up and out, which is similar to Flamenco. That lift in the sternum results in a slight arch in the upper spine. In ballet and cabaret, the sternum is down and pressed in more, and there is no arch in the cervical spine. That would explain why you feel it in the upper back, because the upper back muscles are working to maintain the lift in the sternum.

??? Close?

Firstly, are you talking about tribal fusion ala The Indigo? I take from a fusion teacher, and she incorporates different dance (Javanese and Balinese, among some others) in her style. What separates her from my other teacher is she uses moves from each dance that she thinks fit well together.

This thread requires some input from the experts. IMHO, however, AmCab is an eclectic combination of many types of Middle Easatern dancing - Middle Eastern defined as Egyptian, Tunisia, Arabia, Lebanon, Nubian, Moroccan, Palestinian, some Israeli and Greek.

Which kind of tribal do you mean? The older FCBD-style tribal has very specific postures and movement-cuing systems. Contemporary tribal can be completely different from that, and tribal fusion is all over the place. Some fusion is barely classifiable as the same dance form, while Tribaret is, as you have hinted, practically the same dance as American Cabaret, but with stylistic differences in costuming and musical interpretation. You could probably take an old film of a late-1960's North Beach club dancer performing a taqsim and replace the soundtrack with current Tribaret music, and many people wouldn't notice the difference. Tribaret is only one form of tribal, though. Other forms have moved farther from the source. I doubt you could take footage of a contemporary dancer performing a goth/steampunk/dead-doll tribal routine and get it to work with a George Abdo soundtrack.

Originally Posted by indigostars

Firstly, are you talking about tribal fusion ala The Indigo? I take from a fusion teacher, and she incorporates different dance (Javanese and Balinese, among some others) in her style. What separates her from my other teacher is she uses moves from each dance that she thinks fit well together.

Are you talking Danielle? She's is AWESOME.

Nobody's arguing, Aziyade :) Its just exchange of information.

OK, in general terms:
- posture
- movement - core relationship
- centering
- alignment
- movement anatomy
- movement generation
- movement paths
- body positioning (stylization)
- pasing
- intent in movement
- emphasis in movement
- movement application to music
- expression


Whereas the visual impact generally may look similar, these elements make a core difference to the execution and ultimately the specific visual result of the material presented.

Please give me specific examples of the actual technical differences in how movements are executed, or discuss the difference between postures, spinal alignments, weight placements, etc.

Figure 8 up - conceptual difference:
"cabaret": from a neutral position extending out/up/in/center or up/in/down/center in relation to the neutral hipline when in posture
Tribal: from a neutral position extending down/out/up to neutral/center

In general, I would say that the difference in posture and weight placement throughout the body is what impacts the muscular engagement in the movements aside from the relationship between the movement and neutral postural position.

Posture - Egyptian:
Egyptian is aligned over the arches of the feet
in profile:
arch, mid calf, mid thigh, mid torso, mid neck - knees ahead, hip back, torso ahead, shoulders back. Arms lifted through upper back
weight even
primarily supported by: calf, quad, abs, upper back and diaphragm

Posture - Turkish:
Turkish is aligned with the lower body ahead and the upper body behind
on front part of feet, knees ahead, hip tucked under/pelvis lifted in front, torso lifted. Arms lifted through upper chest and deltoids
primarily supported by: calf, hamstring, glutes, abs, diaphragm

Posture - Tribal:
weight even/more towards heels. flat footed, knees bent ahead, hips tucked under/pelvis lifted in front, torso aligned over hip, torso lifted, shoulders back. Arms lifted through upper back.
primarily supported by: calf, hamstring, glutes, abs, upper back, diaprhagm.

In very generalized terms:
Turkish, ACB and Tribal posture are related to each other. IE. taking from line dance postures where the weight needs to be distributed to enable quick foot work. - also giving more externalized movements in relation to the core.
Egyptian is more related to African dance posture where the relationship between the core and the movement is more internalized around the core.

:)

For further information about this - I do offer comparative study services. I also recommend private instruction or consultations with Rachel Lazarus Soto, Rachel Brice, Carolena Nericcio and Kami Liddle for more in-depth studies with focus on comparrative studies.

PS: I'm purposefully staying away from the hybrids in the definitions here.

I find tribal (ATS/ITS) posture to have a lower center of gravity. I took a few ATS classes and my feet were killing me from keeping them pressed into the floor. Where as I find the more cabaret (Egyptian, American, Turkish) to have a higher center of gravity. More time is spent on the balls of the feet and the pelvis is not as tucked as the ATS posture.

Arm postitioning in ATS/ITS is a little more rigid, (mainly because the hands and arms are often used to signal to group dancers the moves that will be coming.) Cabaret arms tend to flow more freely and keep a more balletic form.

What kind of "tribal" am I talking about?
What kind of "cabaret" am I talking about?

Well, whatever "Tribal" it is that the people who say "Tribal uses a completely different posture and technique than cabaret."

And whatever "Cabaret" it is, when used in that same above context.

IF, as it seems, there is no standard, and everybody teaches what they want, then how can there be one standard Tribal posture? Unless you say it's Fat Chance posture, or Gypsy Caravan figure 8s, or Black Sheep style hip circles, or Indigo head slides.

Originally Posted by aziyade

What kind of "tribal" am I talking about?
What kind of "cabaret" am I talking about?

Well, whatever "Tribal" it is that the people who say "Tribal uses a completely different posture and technique than cabaret."

And whatever "Cabaret" it is, when used in that same above context.

IF, as it seems, there is no standard, and everybody teaches what they want, then how can there be one standard Tribal posture? Unless you say it's Fat Chance posture, or Gypsy Caravan figure 8s, or Black Sheep style hip circles, or Indigo head slides.

Ohhh, Aziyade...you just opened a can of worms! lol :)
Yes, that is in fact a very common thing in Tribal to refer to who created what or what expression things are executed in.

Just like we say "like Dina" or "Samia" in Egyptian...

As for posture - well, 5 years ago I was posing the same exact question to my teachers, colleagues, peers in private instruction and consultations about ACB, Turkish and Tribal posture and execution...being an Egyptian trained and brainwashed dancer only at the time. Luckily, much changed very quickly in regard to my lack of exposure, understanding and experience with both ACB, Turkish and Tribal :) Long live private instruction :)

David, I'm glad you're here because I know you've done a pretty extensive study of the diffs in individual Oriental styles. (BTW - I didn't respond to the descriptions of Turkish because I'm not familiar enough with that style to offer useful comments.)

I like the general discussion points you listed. Also, I hope you don't mind but I want to disect the examples you gave. I think this is going to be the most useful way to do this.

Originally Posted by david

Figure 8 up - conceptual difference:
"cabaret": from a neutral position extending out/up/in/center or up/in/down/center in relation to the neutral hipline when in posture
Tribal: from a neutral position extending down/out/up to neutral/center

I've always learned Figure 8s like this as the hip stretching DOWN, then OUT, then arcing UP, then coming IN and settling back to neutral, which is how you describe the Tribal 8.

But now that I see you describe the Cabaret 8, I'm going to have to go through my notes and see if I've ever learned it that way. !!!


What you describe about posture/weight of the body is consistent with what I have seen -- Tribal being more in the heels, and Cabaret being more towards the arch of the foot, or even shifted forward over almost the ball of the foot, as Shareen el Safy teaches it.

The position of the chest was a major difference in the different styles of Oriental/Cabaret I've learned. Shareen and Sahra Kent shifted the chest forward, causing more of the weight of the body to be on the balls of the feet rather than equally centered between the 3 points of the foot.

When in eleve or demi-pointe position, almost ALL American and Egyptian dancers shift the chest slightly forward, but I think that's because they can't fully lift the arch and stand in full (what ballet would call "proper") demi-pointe position.

Turkish, ACB and Tribal posture are related to each other. IE. taking from line dance postures where the weight needs to be distributed to enable quick foot work. - also giving more externalized movements in relation to the core.
Egyptian is more related to African dance posture where the relationship between the core and the movement is more internalized around the core.

Interesting -- I'd have to think about this more, but I don't have the background in African dance to evaluate it. Thank you for this!!!!

I also recommend private instruction or consultations with Rachel Lazarus Soto, Rachel Brice, Carolena Nericcio and Kami Liddle for more in-depth studies with focus on comparrative studies.

I have hesitated about taking extended classes with some of the more famous "tribal fusion" dancers because in workshops with them EVERYTHING technique-related that I learned -- and I mean everything -- was straight out of Suhaila's classes, and I would rather learn her method from her.

Originally Posted by aziyade

David, I'm glad you're here because I know you've done a pretty extensive study of the diffs in individual Oriental styles. (BTW - I didn't respond to the descriptions of Turkish because I'm not familiar enough with that style to offer useful comments.)

Glad to be of assistance, Aziyade :)

Originally Posted by aziyade

I've always learned Figure 8s like this as the hip stretching DOWN, then OUT, then arcing UP, then coming IN and settling back to neutral, which is how you describe the Tribal 8.

Yes, you are right - it is the degree of extension downwards that is the difference. I dont recognize a "release from holding posture" as down.

Originally Posted by aziyade

What you describe about posture/weight of the body is consistent with what I have seen -- Tribal being more in the heels, and Cabaret being more towards the arch of the foot, or even shifted forward over almost the ball of the foot, as Shareen el Safy teaches it.

Shareen, many of my teachers and myself have studied with the same people. Isnt it cool to see how consistent the information has been able to remain with people?

Originally Posted by aziyade

Interesting -- I'd have to think about this more, but I don't have the background in African dance to evaluate it. Thank you for this!!!!

I actually went and had a posture consultation with an African dance instructor to be able to come to this conclusion. The postures are pretty much identically held. The degrees of angles in the body are what vary.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I have hesitated about taking extended classes with some of the more famous "tribal fusion" dancers because in workshops with them EVERYTHING technique-related that I learned -- and I mean everything -- was straight out of Suhaila's classes, and I would rather learn her method from her.

Well, that's in workshops. It's interesting to get "under the skin" of the style in a private context. I am confident you would have a better exposure to the differences. That said, it is impossible to not draw parallels between Tribal, JSSD and SSSD materials as they are in fact related - in some parts directly related even. I would say that you probably would get a better understanding of differences through Carolena Nericcio and FCBD's approach. FCBD ATS distincts itself from JSSD in many ways and then ATF brings in a lot of SSSD flavors and material... partially because of the Salimpour ancestry of Tribal, partially because many ATF dignitaries are from San Fran and one of the resources there utilized by many ATF dancers is the SSSD.

If this discussion was a pool, I'd be swimming in it...Love this discussion.

This is exactly what I wanted, but didn't know how to ask.

Could someone also list some of the most common "definable" styles of tribal or fusion, then from there, their sub-styles or individual dancers (with their own take)?

And perhaps from there, I can build a kind of parent/child chart of sorts, give me a framework, get an overview of who influenced whom...

David I wouldn't be surprised if you had a flow chart with this info on it already!!! lol

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

If this discussion was a pool, I'd be swimming in it...Love this discussion.

This is exactly what I wanted, but didn't know how to ask.

Could someone also list some of the most common "definable" styles of tribal or fusion, then from there, their sub-styles or individual dancers (with their own take)?

And perhaps from there, I can build a kind of parent/child chart of sorts, give me a framework, get an overview of who influenced whom...

David I wouldn't be surprised if you had a flow chart with this info on it already!!! lol

LOL! Weeeeeell, hows this for starters? Tribal Article @ www.the-eda.com

OH and I do have a flow chart....

by the way, I've never heard an Egyptian call it Cabaret style. As far as I can tell, this phrase came from America. A well known teacher from Egypt told me that 'a Cabaret' is a different sort of thing in Egypt, considered very low class, and no self-respecting dancer would want to associate themselves with it. I have heard Egyptians call styles names such as Oriental, Baladi / Pop Baladi, Folkloric, Saidii / Pop Saidii, Meleya Leff, Eskanderani, and probably more I've forgotten.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

by the way, I've never heard an Egyptian call it Cabaret style. As far as I can tell, this phrase came from America. A well known teacher from Egypt told me that 'a Cabaret' is a different sort of thing in Egypt, considered very low class, and no self-respecting dancer would want to associate themselves with it. I have heard Egyptians call styles names such as Oriental, Baladi / Pop Baladi, Folkloric, Saidii / Pop Saidii, Meleya Leff, Eskanderani, and probably more I've forgotten.

Well, Cabaret is not a term used for Egyptian dances so the fact that no Egyptian has used the term around you is no suprise. American Cabaret is a term that was informally adapted for American Bellydance to destinct between what was done in the US before Egyptian style got its contingency here. It has since become a commonly used term by many - although there are many that oppose the usage of the term.

Cabaret is an old-school American term that means 'sparkly dances that aren't Tribal or Folkloric' and includes American Cabaret as well as oriental dance from Lebanon, Turkey or Egypt.

The only time I see the term used any more is to contrast with Tribal. Most 'cabaret' dancers prefer to call what they do 'bellydance' and call Tribal dance 'Tribal dance.

Originally Posted by david

OH and I do have a flow chart....

How cool is THAT? *head explodes from dance geekiness joy*

It's not my favorite term either, but most people seem to understand what I'm referring to when I use the term.

Coming from a theater background, I define the term cabaret in a classical sense, meaning small stage and small audience. In applying that to belly dance (which is a term I don't care for either, but use it because its use is so widespread), when I use the term "cabaret" I'm referring to belly dance in America in a very general sense as it's been adapted to the small stage in which it is typically found and practiced.

Originally Posted by david

Well, Cabaret is not a term used for Egyptian

I disagree. Even in this thread, lots of people are saying cabaret is Egyptian.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

Where as I find the more cabaret (Egyptian, American, Turkish)

I think as Lauren points out, that this practice originated in America.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Cabaret is an old-school American term that means 'sparkly dances that aren't Tribal or Folkloric' and includes American Cabaret as well as oriental dance from Lebanon, Turkey or Egypt.

Some people use the terms Oriental and Cabaret interchangably:

Originally Posted by aziyade

in the different styles of Oriental/Cabaret I've learned.

Originally Posted by david

LOL! Weeeeeell, hows this for starters? Tribal Article @ www.the-eda.com

OH and I do have a flow chart....

Weeeeeee!!! That's what I'm talking about! Viva la Geeks!

Using David's nifty flow chart as a reference, there are 2 main styles of tribal:

1) American Tribal Style
a.?
b.?
2) American Tribal Fusion
a.?
b.?

Could someone fill in some of the sub-styles under each (please use the full names instead of just the acronyms please)?

Perhaps the differentiation will make more sense, when we see the parent/child relationships.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Some people use the terms Oriental and Cabaret interchangably:

Well, I'm (mis)using it in the sense that Lauren mentioned -- anything not folkloric, for the most part.

I have learned a very specific "kind" of American Cabaret belly dance posture that I call Old-School Cabaret, and that includes a leaning posture that tilts the shoulders and cervical spine backward, and uses a much larger bend in the knees than other styles. They USED to (from what I'm told) initiate that tilt from the lower back lumbar spine, which caused a lot of problems, so when people like Ansuya teach this now, they teach the lean to come from the upper back.

I don't think there are that many people using this posture now, outside of Ansuya's students. ???

The typical posture and alignment in your typical "cabaret" classroom is what was discussed earlier. What changed in American dance technique when Egyptian technique became all the rage seems (TO ME) to be only 2 things:
1. Weight shift forward due to the shifting of the chest slightly forward of the pelvis
2. A straightening of the legs.

Now #2 might be due to Raqia's influence. And #1 might be due to Nagwa Fouad's influence. not sure.

Of course, the Raqia shimmy replaced the old-school bent-knee shimmy, but that's due to #2. And I guess the horizontal shimmy just faded out of fashion for a while. "Snake arms" seemed to get a lot smaller too, and seemed to involve more of a roll of the shoulder than a undulation of the arm joints. Maybe we could call that #3.

It's hard to separate what was American Cabaret before the Egyptian explosion, because it's mostly just books and a handful of not terribly detailed videos. I do know that most of the books on belly dance in America in the pre-Raqia days focused on pushing away from the floor to execute movements. In her technique video in the 80s Dahlena was still teaching the figure 8 mentioned above as pressing the foot hard into the floor, and then pushing away from the floor, letting the hip arc up and then in to the body. With what I've learned of Egyptian technique, this is all accomplished internally, similar to how Suhaila teaches it but not quite. But I have NOT done an exhaustive survey of the literature, by any means.

David -- I do have to question one thing. I'm watching The Legends dvd and looking at the first clip of Fifi Abdo. If you slow-motion pause the clip, you can see that when she does those vertical 8s we were talking about -- but she definitely uses a stretch DOWN before she lets the hip go out, up, in. This would seem inconsistent with your observation of the "cabaret" 8. Do you not classify Fifi in the "cabaret" camp?

BTW - I agree that Egyptian STYLE (musical interpretation, energy, etc.) is quite different from American Cabaret or Americanized Egyptian STYLE, but I think Egyptian TECHNIQUE has pretty much overtaken any other kind of technique in the American classroom. (But that's an assumption made on very little data.)

Originally Posted by david

Yes, that is in fact a very common thing in Tribal to refer to who created what or what expression things are executed in.

Just like we say "like Dina" or "Samia" in Egyptian...

I'm not talking about stylings and expression though. I'm talking about the actual technique. How the movements are accomplished physically.

Let me give you an example from tap:

Tap dance in the US has 2 major styles -- what we call "Broadway Tap" and "Rhythm Tap." Gene and Fred Kelly were Broadway Tappers. Savion Glover is Rhythm Tapper. Same sounds, different technique.

The FLAP is a basic tap movement. In Broadway it's done basically by brushing the foot forward and then dropping the ball of the the foot. It's sort of a kick (sound one) and drop (sound two), and the energy comes from kicking the foot forward. In rhythm tap, it's done by forcefully straightening the knee down, sort of slamming the foot against the floor, so that the second sound is basically a reverberation. Two completely different ways of making the same sound using different sets of muscle groups.

I had Broadway style tap for years, so when I wanted to learn Rhythm, I had to RELEARN FUNDAMENTALLY how even the most basic sounds were made. It was SO HARD and extremely frustrating. I was stuck in a beginners class for a year before I was finally able to do the movement the Rhythm way.

Consider the example of the Tribal 8 versus the Cabaret 8 -- these two movements are accomplished muscularly the same way, it's just that one has a "down" element that the other doesn't. But the energy and movement is generated from the same place.

THAT is why I keep going back to thinking the diffs between Tribal and non-Tribal are stylistic. Tribal dancers haven't figured out a completely different set of muscles to use to get that figure 8 movement, right?

Originally Posted by Fotia

Are you talking Danielle? She's is AWESOME.

Yep and yep.

Thinking more about what makes tribal fusion (for lack of a better term) ala Danielle different from my Oriental training, here's what I came up with:
-She does incorporate moves from different cultures (I know the Javanese is one of her favorites).
-Her posture is admittedly something I don't like and won't use outside of her class. The pelvis is much more tucked than I'm used to. The chest is much more forward.
-I know with snake arms, she prefers that they are small. I'm not sure how to describe it, but the snake arms are more of a ripple effect through the arm, with less up and down motion

I think the position of the pelvis, or how "tucked" it is, is an important part of the diffs between techniques. I had learned to "tuck" the pelvis by pulling in the low abs, but Ava Fleming taught it somehow through the front of the leg, where you don't use your abs at all.

What's the standard for Egyptian style? And for Tribal? Do you pull in the low-abs, or use another muscle to maintain the neutral, upright pelvis?

Originally Posted by aziyade

1. Weight shift forward due to the shifting of the chest slightly forward of the pelvis
2. A straightening of the legs.

Another significant difference is that Egyptian style holds the pelvis from the pelvic floor and lower abs only - not from the hamstrings and/or glutes and/or lower back. Also, Egyptian has a more grounded/weighted effort in the hips/hip joints.

The straighter leg is only one conceptual aspect of Egyptian dance - mostly pretaining to Raqs Sharki concept based execution.

Originally Posted by aziyade

David -- I do have to question one thing. I'm watching The Legends dvd and looking at the first clip of Fifi Abdo. If you slow-motion pause the clip, you can see that when she does those vertical 8s we were talking about -- but she definitely uses a stretch DOWN before she lets the hip go out, up, in. This would seem inconsistent with your observation of the "cabaret" 8. Do you not classify Fifi in the "cabaret" camp?

Fifi releases the hip and bends into the movement. The emphasis is still on the 2nd count at the top of the movement. Fifi is nutorious for these almost unnoticable body releases into the movement - which makes it a royal headache to figure out what she's doing. I dig that about her, she embodies the true complexity of Egyptian dance with her easy-going look and expression, but complex technique at work simultaneously. If you are interested in more information about this - I recommend Bahaia's 1-2-3 bellydance DVD - she has some really good insight in the intro section I found to be clever information to be aware of.

Tribal has a downward emphasis in this movement with an extension of the oblique on the active side downwards. Its hard to elaborate in writing without going into a lengthy detailed explanation - which I would leave up to someone with more detailed deeply rooted expertise in Tribal than myself. I'd be happy to refer you to someone for a consult if you'd like.

Originally Posted by aziyade

BTW - I agree that Egyptian STYLE (musical interpretation, energy, etc.) is quite different from American Cabaret or Americanized Egyptian STYLE, but I think Egyptian TECHNIQUE has pretty much overtaken any other kind of technique in the American classroom. (But that's an assumption made on very little data.)

Oh noooo, I would beg to differ on that. I trained under purely Egyptian technicians for years and I can tell you - there is a huge difference in what's typically taught in the American class room and the actual Egyptian technique. What you do see is a lot of adapted ACB technique where the movement is suppose to look like an Egyptian movement - but it is a mishmash of Salimpour, Oldschool ACB, Reda, Turkish, Ballet and Jazz technique and terminology. At least from my experience with teaching intermediate to professional level dancers around the US. Consistency in terminology and technical explanation is rather inconsistent.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I'm not talking about stylings and expression though. I'm talking about the actual technique. How the movements are accomplished physically.

[snip]

Consider the example of the Tribal 8 versus the Cabaret 8 -- these two movements are accomplished muscularly the same way, it's just that one has a "down" element that the other doesn't. But the energy and movement is generated from the same place.

THAT is why I keep going back to thinking the diffs between Tribal and non-Tribal are stylistic. Tribal dancers haven't figured out a completely different set of muscles to use to get that figure 8 movement, right?

I should have prefaced that the stylization is on TOP of the Tribal fundamentals.

Actually, you made the point that is important yourself further down after your post in regard to how the body is positioned and how this affects how a movement is executed and what muscles are involved. Posture is held by some muscles and mostly other muscles are used to execute movement. If posture is held differently - that also changes what muscles are involved in the execution of movement. intent, flow, emphasis are 3 other aspects that create a different result in the styles we are talking about.

The tribal vocabulary is in fact generated from very different muscles than Egyptian. It has similiarities with Turkish - mostly probably because of the Salimpours influence and ACB influence, BUT it is different by virtue of mere posturing differences and focus in movement. It took me a lot of effort to find people that could put me on track of the differences - I dont find myself qualified enough to go into an indepth specific explanation. All I can say is that when dancing Tribal, ACB, Turkish, Egyptian - they feel different in execution. For more than that - I'd have to refer to in-person studies.