Thread: Why cabaret dancers should try tribal

So as I said in the "diff between tribal and cabaret" post, I have often seen cab dancers in duets or troupes look like they are just multiple dancers doing the same solo. In many troupes I see a lack of connection and of unison that I think a session or two of crosstraining in basic ATS class would really help.

ex: I've seen a duet where, although each dancer was competently doing the choreography, their body alignment and timing were just slightly off and one went into a much deeper level change than the other. Now, you might argue that what they really needed was a third eye at rehearsal to help them clean their choreo, and that may be true, but some time working with tribal concepts would make that sort of checking in with and adjusting to each other instinctive.

It also helps when someone goes off the reservation and blows the choreography. Either the rest of the group can try to follow her or can cue back into a chorus until she finishes her "solo." (Been there, done that!)

And finally, it really requires you to pay attention to each other, to connect, to breath the same breath, which can make a group piece seem like just that, a group piece, rather than simultaneous synchronized solos.

Mind you, I also think there are a lot of great reasons for tribal dancers to cross-train in cabaret styles. And I do! ..g.:

Originally Posted by ReneeD

So as I said in the "diff between tribal and cabaret" post, I have often seen cab dancers in duets or troupes look like they are just multiple dancers doing the same solo. In many troupes I see a lack of connection and of unison that I think a session or two of crosstraining in basic ATS class would really help.

ex: I've seen a duet where, although each dancer was competently doing the choreography, their body alignment and timing were just slightly off and one went into a much deeper level change than the other. Now, you might argue that what they really needed was a third eye at rehearsal to help them clean their choreo, and that may be true, but some time working with tribal concepts would make that sort of checking in with and adjusting to each other instinctive.

It also helps when someone goes off the reservation and blows the choreography. Either the rest of the group can try to follow her or can cue back into a chorus until she finishes her "solo." (Been there, done that!)

And finally, it really requires you to pay attention to each other, to connect, to breath the same breath, which can make a group piece seem like just that, a group piece, rather than simultaneous synchronized solos.

Mind you, I also think there are a lot of great reasons for tribal dancers to cross-train in cabaret styles. And I do! ..g.:

Well, IMO- I've seen plenty of tribal that has been off beat so that style doesn't necessarily hold all the answers regarding timing.
The synchronicity I have seen in ATS takes time to build as it does in cabaret. In cabaret it is still important to have an idea where your troupe mates are, I guess it depends if it's just half a dozen people dancing/doing the same thing on stage OR as a troupe you interact and create patterns - that requires more awareness like in ATS.

Originally Posted by ReneeD

So as I said in the "diff between tribal and cabaret" post, I have often seen cab dancers in duets or troupes look like they are just multiple dancers doing the same solo. In many troupes I see a lack of connection and of unison that I think a session or two of crosstraining in basic ATS class would really help.

ex: I've seen a duet where, although each dancer was competently doing the choreography, their body alignment and timing were just slightly off and one went into a much deeper level change than the other. Now, you might argue that what they really needed was a third eye at rehearsal to help them clean their choreo, and that may be true, but some time working with tribal concepts would make that sort of checking in with and adjusting to each other instinctive.

You make an interesting point but there are other factors that go into making a great troupe performance that doesn't necessarily require taking lessons in ATS. Not saying it couldn't help but for me I won't mix styles. After studying AmCab, I now study folkloric styles and raqs sharki which is a learning process onto itself.

I have danced for many years starting with the whole tap, jazz, ballet, etc. and have competed in troupes, watched troupe performances and judged troupes. I've seen wonderful groups perform, middle of the road troupes and troupes that needed to work harder.

Sometimes a troupe can look off by having a multi-level troupe. Sometimes if you have baby belly dancers along with 20 year belly dancing vets, it can throw off a troupe b/c while someone trying to perfect a shimmy you have other who can shimmy and layer at different levels. Not saying it can't work it will take a lot of work and dedication from the troupe members. You may find middle ground for both groups.

Another factor is practice. A troupe that is really dedicated in any form of dance performance must, must practice, practice, practice. There's no way to get around it. Hard work shows in performances and is appreciated. I knew dance teachers who would not let their troupe perform b/c the piece wasn't up to par. I don't blame them b/c this was their troupe and the reputation was on the line. I think when one puts a troupe together they have to be tough, not mean, and keep everyone on task. You weed out those who are serious and those who aren't about performing as a group.

There is a local Lebanese troupe I've seen perform that are serious about what they do and of course practice a lot together. This is a group of young men and women who have to follow certain rules. If they don't show up for practice, they are not in the next performance.

I also agree with straightleftknee and I've also seen good tribal groups.

Originally Posted by akashablue

You make an interesting point but there are other factors that go into making a great troupe performance that doesn't necessarily require taking lessons in ATS. Not saying it couldn't help but for me I won't mix styles. After studying AmCab, I now study folkloric styles and raqs sharki which is a learning process onto itself.

I have danced for many years starting with the whole tap, jazz, ballet, etc. and have competed in troupes, watched troupe performances and judged troupes. I've seen wonderful groups perform, middle of the road troupes and troupes that needed to work harder.

Sometimes a troupe can look off by having a multi-level troupe. Sometimes if you have baby belly dancers along with 20 year belly dancing vets, it can throw off a troupe b/c while someone trying to perfect a shimmy you have other who can shimmy and layer at different levels. Not saying it can't work it will take a lot of work and dedication from the troupe members. You may find middle ground for both groups.

Another factor is practice. A troupe that is really dedicated in any form of dance performance must, must practice, practice, practice. There's no way to get around it. Hard work shows in performances and is appreciated. I knew dance teachers who would not let their troupe perform b/c the piece wasn't up to par. I don't blame them b/c this was their troupe and the reputation was on the line. I think when one puts a troupe together they have to be tough, not mean, and keep everyone on task. You weed out those who are serious and those who aren't about performing as a group.

There is a local Lebanese troupe I've seen perform that are serious about what they do and of course practice a lot together. This is a group of young men and women who have to follow certain rules. If they don't show up for practice, they are not in the next performance.

I also agree with straightleftknee and I've also seen good tribal groups.

From the same exact dance background, ITA with Akashablue.

I do appreciate valuable cross-training. However, while these dance forms are all on a spectrum I still intuit a distinct "us/them" perspective.
Personally, I am also resistant to "should" statements.

I agree with your post, Renee. I know that when I auditioned for the NDC part of what made my audition go well (and part of why I was able to integrate myself easily) was due to my time spent as part of an ITS troupe. I was used to dancing with others, working with them to achieve a uniformity of movement. It really helped.

i think part of it is communication as well. someone (the teacher/leader if there is one, or something) has to decide, not just what move is made, but also set the speed, the depth, the orientation and direction, and the exact precise timing of that move. plus, what is the rest of the body doing during that time?
it's perfectly fine for one dancer to do improv or a more-or-less choreo, and have it look good, but if there are going to be 2 or more dancers up there, and you want it to look good, everything has to be decided upon.
also, about the timing: sometimes it's off because one dancer will be basing her/his timing on another person. might work if only 2 people are dancing, but not with 10 dancers. but if everyone knows the timing of the moves on the music, everyone can and will be all together.

Scientology is not for me. I won't be assimilated!

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Scientology is not for me. I won't be assimilated!

..l;,

I think uniformity and the ability to be present and aware of your troupemates is a skill that can be learned outside of ITS.

Confident dancers who know what they are doing are the answer...not a particular style. I've experienced some "bad tribal" and know that it doesn't solve the issue with a group/duet dancing together in a cohesive fashion.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

..l;,

I think uniformity and the ability to be present and aware of your troupemates is a skill that can be learned outside of ITS.

Of course it is. But learning ATS/ITS helped me tremendously and I think the point of the OP is that cross-training (or whatever we want to call it) can be helpful to those who may not want to practice the style. There are benefits to tribal dancers taking cabaret classes and vice-versa.

I think you could just as easily state that TRIBAL (fusion) dancers should try tribal (ATS), because I think I've seen more 'off' or all out trainwrecks among troupes doing tribal fusion than I have cabaret ;-)

That aside, I think that troupes of any nature should work together and do more than just practice set choreography. Just group exercises (follow the leader/follow the bouncing butt type things) would really give a feel for how the others in the troupe dance and better help to synchronize the individuals into a unit.

I did ATS for a couple of years and I do think that many cabaret troupes could benefit from it. Working to have moves look the same on many different bodies and skill levels. I like the way they use space and formations. The chorus/soloists in the center let everyone have her moment of glory. The fades and other patterns make the dance more interesting to watch.

I also took a workshop with Cera Byers who works with modern dance and tribal fusion. It was very interesting to incorporate some of the modern dance ideas about floor patterns into group bellydance.

I'm in a troupe where having a little tribal knowledge has gone horribly wrong! Now we have dancers whose eyes dart all over the place looking for cues as opposed to learning the choreography and listening to the music... Gah!

Originally Posted by nitara

I'm in a troupe where having a little tribal knowledge has gone horribly wrong! Now we have dancers whose eyes dart all over the place looking for cues as opposed to learning the choreography and listening to the music... Gah!

LOL! Yeah, there are pros and cons to everything. Then again, I wonder how well those people were educated in tribal dance. One of the thing I learned is to *not* have your eyes darting all over the place. I got really good at seeing things from my peripheral vision...l;, Not to mention that, after a while, it becomes kind of "psychic", like you can "feel" where the person is going with the improv, what cue is coming next, that type of thing. The longer I'm with The NDC, the more and more that happens - we feel each other's movements, in a way.

If you are advocating studying the old-school, cued-style tribal, then I suppose I can see your point, but as tribal has expanded into the various sub-genres, the validity of what you are advocating may be getting lost--as evidenced by the number of poorly synchronized troupes out there doing off-brand Rachel Brice imitations. I think what you are really describing is the lack of discipline and stagecraft that many group performances suffer from, and that is something that tribal style is not unique in its ability to fix. A rigorous training in ANY other dance form would go a long way to addressing poor-quality performances.

If a group of dancers is not performing at a consistent level (because of variations in expertise level, insufficient rehearsal time, poor awareness of how sloppy they actually are), then that is the fault of the group's director, not the dance form. Unfortunately, IMHO, the largest problem contributing to bad troupes is lack of motivation to put a quality product on stage. If you have a troupe consisting of one dancer who wants to work hard, one diva who resents being there because she wants to solo, two dancers who just want to dress up and goof around, one dancer who thinks only half of the rehearsals are mandatory, and a perpetual beginner whom everybody really likes so nobody wants to hurt her feelings by telling her she doesn't belong on stage, then you are simply not going to get a flawless performance out of them--cross-training in tribal or otherwise.

Originally Posted by ReneeD

So as I said in the "diff between tribal and cabaret" post, I have often seen cab dancers in duets or troupes look like they are just multiple dancers doing the same solo. In many troupes I see a lack of connection and of unison that I think a session or two of crosstraining in basic ATS class would really help.

Why not ballet or jazz or modern or contact improv or ...? the problem you are describing is a fault either with the director/teacher or if the dancers are working on their own a dirty big hole in their understanding of any dance style. The answer is to work together - not learn a new style.

Originally Posted by Azhia

From the same exact dance background, ITA with Akashablue.

I do appreciate valuable cross-training. However, while these dance forms are all on a spectrum I still intuit a distinct "us/them" perspective.
Personally, I am also resistant to "should" statements.

Azhia, perhaps I would re-state the subject to be "Why I would encourage cabaret dancers to try tribal." ..g.:

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Scientology is not for me. I won't be assimilated!

LOL! I promise no one will hook you up to any machines and try to measure your brain waves (or whatever it is they do.)

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If you are advocating studying the old-school, cued-style tribal, then I suppose I can see your point,

Yes, that is what I meant.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If you have a troupe consisting of one dancer who wants to work hard, one diva who resents being there because she wants to solo, two dancers who just want to dress up and goof around, one dancer who thinks only half of the rehearsals are mandatory, and a perpetual beginner whom everybody really likes so nobody wants to hurt her feelings by telling her she doesn't belong on stage,

OMG, I think I've been in that troupe! (Haven't most of us at one point or another?)

Originally Posted by basina

I think you could just as easily state that TRIBAL (fusion) dancers should try tribal (ATS), ;-)

For sure! ..g.:

Originally Posted by basina

That aside, I think that troupes of any nature should work together and do more than just practice set choreography. Just group exercises (follow the leader/follow the bouncing butt type things) would really give a feel for how the others in the troupe dance and better help to synchronize the individuals into a unit.

Absolutely. Hmmmm, I'm seeing a potential workshop topic here...

Dr Mo Geddawi teaches follow the leader/pairwork exercises. Ain't nothing tribal about him.

Tribal is just another kind of dance. It doesn't own unity or slickness.

And yeah, tribal dancers should totally do tribal! I actually miss seeing old-school improvised ATS. It's all so pseudo-Bricey and faux-cabUHray Berlin these days.

Originally Posted by ReneeD

Yes, that is what I meant.



OMG, I think I've been in that troupe! (Haven't most of us at one point or another?)

Yes, and furthermore I would say that we were all just about every one of those characters at one time or another.

I can see where ATS/ITS style training could be useful, but I have to agree with what a few of the other posters have said: not necessarily any more so than any of a dozen other approaches. Plenty of dance, movement, even theatrical forms can help with these issues. Anything that increases awareness/observation skills, attention to physical details, and attention to others/your surrounding in performance type situations can potentially do the trick.

What can't be replaced is simply time working together. It takes time and effort to get everyone "on the same page," thinking the same way and easily adapting to one another. Anytime you greatly change the dynamic of the group (say, someone leaves and a few new people come in) it will likely take a little time and effort to achieve that same level the group was at before the change, no matter what kind of training the people have. However, if there's been some history of training in non-solo formats, that will help new individuals adapt and help the group adapt to them.

Cross-training's usually a plus in whatever you pursue.
As a teacher of both styles I know both can be good or bad...,r:; but it's an interesting journey nonetheless.

Here's how I put it on my website:
What are the benefits of group improvisation?
* Group improvisation helps dancers learn graceful transitions, finger cymbals, confidence, rhythms, music interpretation and more.
* Memorized choreographies often result in stale and liveless performances, but group improv bellydance is fresh and unique every time.
* Scheduling shows is easy because all the dancers know the same structured improv format, whereas only some dancers may know the same choreography. Knowing this group improv method gives us more performance opportunities.

I think the inherent drawback to ONLY knowing tribal/group improv is this style is more limited than oriental in terms of emotional & individual expression - (not talking about tribal fusion). So there must still be a drive to dance individually, no?

Responding to the thread headline:

Just like any trying or exposing oneself to any other dance style will increase one's awareness within one's own style; Tribal can be of assistance in this area. Also, dancers may gain increased awareness within certain concepts and areas by exposing themselves to other dance styles. Jazz, Tribal, Modern, Ballet, Ballroom, Kathak, Polka - whatever style it may be.

Tribal could be a complimentary avenue of exposure for cabaret dancers as it is somewhat related to cabaret and MED as well.

I believe it is important not to make it sound like cabaret dancers should or would be better if they tried Tribal. There are many other dance styles that could have the same benefit - and for those with the ability to find these values and hit these milestones within cabaret there is no real need for exposure to other dance styles (although recommended, IMHO).

Anthea - great points there.

Originally Posted by david

I believe it is important not to make it sound like cabaret dancers should or would be better if they tried Tribal. There are many other dance styles that could have the same benefit - and for those with the ability to find these values and hit these milestones within cabaret there is no real need for exposure to other dance styles (although recommended, IMHO).

I think you're right that we should be saying that cab dancers "could" benefit from cross-training, instead of "should" cross-train.

However, does the same go for tribal dancers? Do we think they "should" take a cabaret class? Because I've seen that said here, time and again.

Originally Posted by MakedaMaysa

I think you're right that we should be saying that cab dancers "could" benefit from cross-training, instead of "should" cross-train.

However, does the same go for tribal dancers? Do we think they "should" take a cabaret class? Because I've seen that said here, time and again.

Of course, but the thread was about why cabaret dancers should/could/may try tribal :)

I've been in a troupe that was not tribal and we learned the same skills. What I think a lot of cabaret dancers prefer as opposed to tribal is not necessarily the style but the costuming. At least that's what other cabaret dancers feel about it in addition to my own feelings.

I think a big benefit of Cab dancers trying Tribal and vice versa is simply to achieve a better level of understanding. I really think it would put to rest a lot of mis-conceptions each "group" tends to have about each other. You know, like walking a mile in each others' shoes concept. I have taken a few Tribal classes myself - and definitely have a greater appreciation for it. Its still not my style and I can't say I enjoyed it...but it erased a lot of assumptions I had about the style and expression, gave me a new respect for the style, and I'm really glad I did it.

To address the OP - the issues and frustrations you expressed, IMHO, are just symptoms of poor choreography, rehearsal and direction. I've seen bad group performances of every style, and I've seen wonderful examples in every style. Connection with each other, breathing, spatial awareness, emotion, all these things I teach to my students and are things we work on in my own troupe constantly. It has nothing to do with the particular style we are studying. I didn't learn these concepts in Tribal, I learned them through other dance styles and indeed from my own teacher - also Egyptian/Oriental style. Group cohesiveness is not a strictly "Tribal" concept, its a dance concept.

Anthea, with all due respect, I do have to address your comment about "Memorized choreographies often result in stale and liveless performances, but group improv bellydance is fresh and unique every time." I disagree, and would argue that stale lifeless performances only happen with stale, lifeless performers and has nothing to do with the style or method.

Originally Posted by elljay

I think a big benefit of Cab dancers trying Tribal and vice versa is simply to achieve a better level of understanding. I really think it would put to rest a lot of mis-conceptions each "group" tends to have about each other. You know, like walking a mile in each others' shoes concept. I have taken a few Tribal classes myself - and definitely have a greater appreciation for it. Its still not my style and I can't say I enjoyed it...but it erased a lot of assumptions I had about the style and expression, gave me a new respect for the style, and I'm really glad I did it.

To address the OP - the issues and frustrations you expressed, IMHO, are just symptoms of poor choreography, rehearsal and direction. I've seen bad group performances of every style, and I've seen wonderful examples in every style. Connection with each other, breathing, spatial awareness, emotion, all these things I teach to my students and are things we work on in my own troupe constantly. It has nothing to do with the particular style we are studying. I didn't learn these concepts in Tribal, I learned them through other dance styles and indeed from my own teacher - also Egyptian/Oriental style. Group cohesiveness is not a strictly "Tribal" concept, its a dance concept.

Anthea, with all due respect, I do have to address your comment about "Memorized choreographies often result in stale and liveless performances, but group improv bellydance is fresh and unique every time." I disagree, and would argue that stale lifeless performances only happen with stale, lifeless performers and has nothing to do with the style or method.

And here you come and just say it so much better. Thank you :0